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thread: The Failure Of Schools To Educate - Article

  1. #1

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    Post The Failure Of Schools To Educate - Article

    The head of The King's School, Tim Hawkes, throws down a challenge to educators.

    Despite being a headmaster for nearly 20 years, I am just developing a conviction that I have been manifestly unfaithful as an educator because I have been teaching an inadequate curriculum. The fact that this inadequacy in curriculum is probably to be found in most Western schools brings me no comfort at all.

    When the philosopher Aristippus of Cyrene was asked, 400 years BC, what students should be taught, he replied: "Those things which they will use when adults."

    What, then, are the things our students will use as adults? The only certainties are well known - death and taxes. Do we teach death in our schools? Do we teach financial literacy?

    Both my parents died a few years ago. Apart from the grief, I found I had to cope with the ignorance. What sort of funeral service? What is probate? Whom do I have to notify? What are the duties of an executor? My experience is hardly unique. We all have to deal with death, even if it is just our own.

    Then there are taxes - a topic I have expanded to include financial literacy. I look at the young today and see far too many victims in the use of credit cards, in understanding the relative benefits of lending schemes, in deciding which telephone plan to use, and in being able to save.

    Too many schools have lost sight of those things that will be used by our students when they become adults. The relevance of contemporary school education is compromised by many things, not least by exam systems designed not so much to prepare students for life, as to help them get into tertiary education or improve the resume.

    What are the things students will use when they are grown up? Any serious answer is unlikely to omit things such as the ability to:

    * live in community and forge good relationships;

    * communicate well;

    * know yourself and what you believe;

    * handle intimacy and sex;

    * control emotions and impulses;

    * manage financial matters;

    * do practical things, to clean, cook, make and mend;

    * be good mannered and know etiquette;

    * accept responsibility;

    * be resilient and deal with grief and loss.

    Doubtless more topics should be added, but a list even of this length begins to illustrate a chasm between what a student will use when an adult, and what a student is usually taught at school. There are glorious exceptions, of course, and most schools would be doing some things in some of the above areas, but I believe Western education is generally failing to offer its students relevant material.

    It is easy to go rather too far with this thesis and advocate that students become like Byron's Don Juan. He learned the arts of riding, fencing, gunnery.

    And how to scale a fortress - or a nunnery.


    Schools should do more than train for a vocation of scaling nunnery walls. Schools must train the heart and mind, and do so through a variety of academic disciplines. However, schools must ensure they remain relevant to their students' future life, and there is rather too much evidence that they are failing in this regard.

    I suggest schools should consider teaching the following skills:

    1. Community Too often the contemporary child is the isolated doughy blob entertained by a range of expensive electronic equipment which limits their interaction to "e-relationships". These relationships are often transient and disposable, and lack authenticity. Social skills are under-exercised in some families. This can lead to children becoming self-centred and unable to take the needs of others into the orbit of their thinking. In short, they become a social liability in a group larger than one.

    What some children need is a compulsory experience of living in community, not just for six hours a day within the choreographed setting of a school, but for 24 hours a day within the chaos of a bickering and restless community. They need to learn to live with people who are different, so that they can operate in a world where annoying people stubbornly remain and there is no "delete" button to remove them.

    2. Communicate Students, particularly boys, urgently need help to communicate better. The Neanderthal grunt may work well at the football ground, but not at work or at home. They need to be articulate, and to communicate well in writing. In fairness to schools, this challenge is being met reasonably faithfully.

    However, schools must recognise that content governs only about 7 per cent of the impact of speech. The remainder is controlled by the appearance of the speaker (57 per cent) and the sound of the speaker (36 per cent). The science of voice projection, articulation, accent, modulation, pitch and pace needs to be taught, together with the most appropriate posture, grooming and appearance.

    All students need to be taught to read body language, to sense mood, to interpret the unspoken feelings of another. They need to improve their ability to send and receive unspoken messages, other than the raised middle finger.

    3. Know yourself An essential requirement for all students is that they eventually take "ownership" of what they believe in. They may mimic a political opinion from friends, a faith from parents and a cause from a teacher, but somewhere the student needs to stop the copying and find his or her own voice.

    Martin Luther once stood before his critics and said: "Here I stand, I can do no other." Too many young people do not know where they stand or what they believe. An alarming number appear happy to progress through life without a cause, without a creed and without a conviction. Even worse, some do not even know themselves. They have no understanding of their unique gifts or abilities.

    4. Intimacy The Western world does a poor job in preparing its students to be intimate. There are always exceptions, but in general students are required to navigate their way through the sexual swamp with minimal direction. Signposts can be vague and contradictory. The parents say this, and the school says that, but the porn site says something completely different. Where adult direction falters, peer direction takes over. The "leader of the pack" can, in strident and boastful voice, suggest the way forward to the forbidden fruit and encourage all to eat thereof. The proper people to educate students about sex are parents.

    Some parents are wonderful at giving their children guidelines on sex, but others are delinquent. The latter can be because of the sin of omission. The lexicon of excuses is extensive: "It's not my job - the school will deal with it"; "I'm too busy"; "It's the sort of thing you have to learn yourself"; "They probably know more about it than I do"; "I'm not quite sure what to tell them." There are plenty of excuses to choose from. For other parents, it is the sin of commission. They teach their children an attitude towards sex that is unworthy of them. They model abusive and angry relationships, unfaithful relationships, degrading relationships. The child watches it all, memorises it all and repeats it all.

    Schools can also fail their students. Classes will do pencilled drawings of reproductive organs, and become experts on how "tadpoles" swim upstream and how babies grow in the womb. They will be introduced to the horrors of sexually transmitted diseases in that theoretical, antiseptic way. Some of the luckier ones may get to roll a condom onto a banana and giggle their way through a lecture on dating. The mind is fed but not the heart.

    The questions students want to ask, they are not allowed to, as it is not in the syllabus. So answers must be sought on the net, in magazines and on the back of toilet doors - they are certainly not in text books. We must do a better job of teaching our children about sex and intimacy. They have little need to hear more about the biology of sex, for this is generally done well in schools. Nor do they need to hear about the morality of sex from adults with dehydrated loins who have no connection with the virility of a teenager.

    They want to know what they can, where they can, why they can, when they can, how they can, if they can. They no longer need to know how they measure up in an environment of unconditional love, but how they measure up outside, in the swamp of life where love, like and lust churn dangerously. It is not just smut and titillation that students want, for they can get these quite easily these days. What they want is something more elusive, something rare, and that is wholesome advice on how to be a man, how to be a woman.

    5. Emotional control Prisons are typically full of men, and in particular men who would not be there if they had mastered the art of counting to 10 before acting. Acting impulsively usually means that only the reptilian part of the brain is exercised. Other parts of the brain need to be if students, particularly boys, are to avoid making poor decisions and enlarging our prison population. Fight or flight behaviours may be genetically useful for hunting mammoths or defending a cave from intruders, but are less useful in contemporary suburbia or in seeking acceptance as a mature and measured member of modern society.

    6. Finance The level of ignorance in students about financial matters can be frightening. This is revealed in the number of young adults and students who get into financial trouble through an inability to budget, a failure to understand the traps associated with credit cards and incapacity to retire debt. Persistently living beyond their means, relying too much on parental help and making unwise choices on hire-purchase, telephone plans and leasing arrangements are just some of the problems resulting from students not being taught about financial matters. In a society increasingly riven with debt, wealth generation and wealth management need to be taught. The rudiments of saving, and the traps to avoid when borrowing or getting involved in get-rich-quick schemes, need to be shared with our students if we expect them to manage financial affairs appropriately.

    7. Practical things Discussions about the absence of life-skills in the young are often laced with horrified tales of fungal growth in bathrooms, kitchen benches piled high with unwashed dishes, ovens blackened by neglect and bedroom carpets disappearing under a rising tide of discarded clothes. Some students have never been taught to cook. If they have, they have probably not been taught to clean up afterwards. A range of home maintenance skills is frequently missing in our students, including how to maintain a lawn mower, change a tap washer, turn off the water if there is a leak, recycle waste, conserve water and reduce the power bill.

    8. Manners It is probably all right for a child to eat like a pig, but they must know they are eating like a pig and be able to stop when the situation demands it. Failing to learn many other social behaviours can result in students being disadvantaged. The simple act of sending a thank-you message for a present, shaking hands appropriately, knowing what cutlery to use, addressing a letter correctly, understanding what "formal" means and knowing the art of good conversation are just some of the skills at risk of extinction in the lives of too many of our young.

    9. Responsibility Many students live voyeuristic lives. They like to watch. Watching is safe. You bear no responsibility, accept no accountability. "Spectatoritis" is rife. Many of today's teenagers are screenagers. They look, comment and criticise from the comfort of the couch. The child then becomes an adult who finds it difficult to do much other than to watch and excuse themselves from accepting responsibility. Students need to be taught how to take ownership of their own behaviour, how to be leaders, how to make appropriate decisions, and how to serve others well.

    10. Resilience Life cannot be expected to provide a constant stream of undiluted fun, praise and success. If students crumple because they do not get an hourly fix of praise, they may not last long. Self-esteem needs to be built up, but never to a stage that ordinary performance is exalted as extraordinary. "Warm fuzzies" are good, but so too are words of correction if they are shared with wisdom and understanding. Students should not depend on a constant diet of praise. Disappointment happens, so do discouragement and distress, and thus some inner courage is required.

    It might be as well to remind some that if the world didn't "suck", they would fall off and that some resilience is needed. The gods play with us all and cause us to laugh and cry. Emotional and physical courage is required. As it is said, we are all born naked, wet and hungry, and things then get worse. Fortunately, things also get better.

    This is an edited version of a plenary address Dr Hawkes gave to an international boys' schools coalition conference in Canada and a paper to the Federal Government's review of national curriculum.
    The failure of schools to educate - National - smh.com.au

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,900

    I reckon that is a great article and pretty true.
    When I moved out of home I had no idea about living by myself, how to pay bills, how to get car insurance, or anything about tax!! And I didn't know how to cook (I think mum should have taught me that tho). DH doesn't really know much about fixing stuff. Not like my Dad or older men I know who could just fix anything, the younger generation seems to have lost that. DH and my brothers have no idea really. Hmm...maybe that's a bit to do with feminism and everything too imagine if a school was teaching all the girls to cook and sew etc and all the guys about cars and building etc, outrage!

  3. #3
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    6,706

    I've only really had a cursory read through at this stage, but don't really have the time or energy to do more at the moment. I'm posting this to remind myself to come back when I have more energy to read through properly!

    As an educator of teenagers, I am prepared to hang my head in shame at what the syllabus is forcing me to teach children. And yet, we've just finished a topic on consumer arithmetic and one of the things we focussed on was reading a credit card statement. Perhaps it is strange that my class enjoyed factorising quadratic equations far more than they did wading through the intricacies of credit card statements. Or perhaps it is just an indication of the level of enthusiasm I showed for teaching those two different concepts.

    However, it has encouraged me to stick to my guns on some things and not cave when students repeatedly come to me complaining about trivial matters. The "life's hard and you can't always get what you want" approach seems to be something that they need to encounter sooner or later, and sooner is probably far better than later in the light of some of the things I have read.

    But there's also the thought of how the system is in such a state that it is going to be hard to recover from the state we are in. I have a remarkable lack of domestic skills and dread to think what state we would be living in if it weren't for my husband's amazing levels of domestication. He's the one who cooks and cleans and fixes things. Admittedly, some of the problems we are dealing with are due to chronic health conditions, but without him... it's a scary thought. If I as a teacher lack the domestic skills and general life skills that kids are meant to be taught, then what hope do we have?

    BW

  4. #4
    Registered User

    Oct 2003
    Forestville NSW
    8,944

    BW Don't hang your head in shame, this is something that is "out of the ordinary".

    I love the ideals he puts forth. I also think that those are important that we teach the children around us. We teach our kids that we live in community with others, by spending time with the same friends weekly. We teach our kids that if one of our friends wants us to do something, than we do it. Whether or not it "puts us out". We teach or have a plan to teach responsibility with finances. Life skills, such as cleaning a house, mowing the lawns or looking after the animals...

    See to me, education at school should be scholastic... education at home should be life skills. I believe that the educations children get at school needs to be only %50 of their education and as they grow up, their education at home has to grow as well.

  5. #5
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    Ooooh. I don't fully agree.

    What are the parents doing? I certainly don't expect a school to teach DS about manners, dealing with people, practical skills, money... he'll have learnt them BEFORE he starts secondary schooling! He loves helping me cook already and can clean up things. He is ALWAYS told about money and when we're shopping "this is too expensive, but this tastes nicer and is cheaper so we can buy that and enjoy it" especially in the supermarket. My teenager will NOT think eating "like a pig" is acceptable. Sure, he may well do it, but he'll know it's not right.

    What are the parents doing that means the children are turning out like this? We can't dump all the problems on schools - we have to accept responsibility, maybe that will teach our children how to!

    Both DH and I can do basic car maintainance (OK DH goes above and beyond but that's him, I can at least pump tyres and check oil), we can both cook, clean, even knit. We both learnt this from our parents. We learnt that we fail because WE fail - although coming from a culture where you are expected to fail isn't healthy, but taking responsibility for it is.

    (FWIW, the ultimate in dodging responsibility from my mother: "He didn't get the job because they sent him the wrong letter, some silly girl stuffing the envelopes sent him a rejection letter instead of an acceptance one" - about a man who has evaded responsibility, sound financial planning, looking after himself and learning practical skills all his life.)

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    6,706

    I guess you have a point, Christy... and it could be argued that this is a reflection of the case that so many parents (and I see a lot of these in a private school) wish to completely abdicate themselves from all responsibilities regarding the education and discipline of their child. They send them to a private school so that we can "fix" the child. Sadly, by the time they get to us, the damage has been done and it's too late.

    I think that some people (myself included) can easily lose sight of the fact that schools are not the only places responsible for education - kids are going to learn a lot (and should be!) learning a lot at home, at church, with different sporting organisations, etc.

    One thing is for sure... I'll be making sure my son knows how to cook and clean as well as fix a car and a toaster and all other assorted random skills. Even if it's his father that does the majority of the teaching!

    Perhaps it's also a sign of the readiness to place all blame on teachers, rather than point at parents for their failures. I'm not entirely sure I'm using the right words... must be time to go off and have a nap and see if I can get my thoughts more in order on this.

    And there's one fact. No school can adequately prepare a student to join the workforce as a plumber or carpenter while also adequately preparing someone to go onto further studies to become a doctor or lawyer. A school can not be all things to all people - Would we not be better off teaching students the skills they need to help them find out for themselves what they will need to know.

    BW

  7. #7
    Registered User

    Nov 2005
    Where the heart is
    4,360

    I love what he has to say. I would like to see a nice fusion of scholastic/real life, so teaching maths, music, art, language and literature, vocational stuff all with continual reference to real life contexts.
    And I would really love to see the gag on sex lifted. Sex and intimacy need to be treated as normal, not illicit...I mean, it's how we all get here and it's become a real elephant in the room!!
    These are just my initial thoughts, I have no pedagogical expertise and I'm just thinking of the education I'd like DS to get...and that's a while off, for now.
    I love the article and it gets the thinking ball rolling, no?

  8. #8
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Feb 2006
    South Eastern Suburbs, Vic
    6,054

    I think that there is definitely more room within schools for practical, real life education. I think things like budgeting, sewing/mending, cooking, music/singing, resume writing, relationships...are all good things to be covered - NOT because it is the school's sole responsibility to teach those things, but because a fact of life is that not all parents are good at ALL those things. I'm quite good at music, but it wasn't my parents who taught me that, I nurtured that at school. In the same way, some parents can't budget, some have poor communication skills, others can't read a map to save their lives.

    I believe that education is the parent's responsibility. I send my child to school, and which school I send them to depends on what I want them to learn there. I then teach them at home what they don't learn at school, and communicate with them to find out what they're learning at school.

    Good thought provoking article though.

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    What would be lost to teach this? Budgetting instead of geometry (instead of caculus and I'd approve more LOL)? Love and intimacy instead of particle physics? Cooking at schools now is graded on your assessment of how well you cooked a meal - tbh, it's a cake, it riz, it didn't poison anyone. A+. Not a written assessment. That puts people off (or did me; how DO you evaluate a sandwich?). I wouldn't want to be graded on "love and intimacy"! (I really don't like failure LOL.)

    If we decide that which fork to use when is more important at a school than modern languages then that's not right either. I just don't see why schools should do more and parents less.

    Yes, OK, so I think that some things are important and will be getting DS speech and drama lessons at junior school because that has maybe been THE most helpful thing in my adult life. But we'll be doing the exercises together. Just like I'll be teaching him the piano initially - a good skill to have. I'll teach him to sew and knit and about music, DH will teach him to saw and weld and fish, we'll both teach him cooking and cleaning. We both will encourage a love of reading, thinking, exploring, counting, budgetting, talking, feeling, loving... that's our job! I don't WANT a school to take it away! Let me do SOMETHING for my son! Something that doesn't HAVE to be noted and graded - even now, at Nursery, he is monitored and graded and has targets. Just let him be, please, and let him enjoy life. He'll enjoy it more.

    Maybe I'm too much of a hands-on Mammy, maybe I need to realise that other children don't have the advantages I can give my son, but I want him to learn cerebral things at school, not basics all the time. Maybe extra lessons in what it means to be human (as listed above)? But does that mean no sport, drama, religious studies, languages...? Because that's what's sacrificed first. Do we want children who don't run around all day but know how which glass is for white and which for red? A child who has no idea what other people believe but is great at articulating that openly and not grunting about it? School is for schooling, life is for living and the two do intertwine, but lessons for living happen more at home and in the playground. I will never be able to teach my son (quick, something I'm not good at...) about the geography and geology, not to mention the flora and fauna, of the Far East, but school can. Let them do their job and let me do mine.

  10. #10
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Feb 2006
    South Eastern Suburbs, Vic
    6,054

    Let them do their job and let me do mine.
    But that's just what I think Ryn, that's how it should be, but I think that practical, real-life skills need to be taught at school as a safety net for those students whose parents don't feel the same way, who don't have the time, skills,resources or inclination to teach their children those things.

    So I believe that it's very important that schools include that practical teaching as part of a student's experience. Or find ways to make other teaching relevant...fitting English skills into letter and resume writing, going to an international restaurant to use language skills, bringing an actual torn item of clothing into textiles, doing a budget in maths. So many students don't see the relevance in the things that they're learning, I know I certainly struggled to see how I would use teddy bear making and American history in my life.

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Nov 2005
    Where the heart is
    4,360

    I'm not going to get het up about what this guy is talking about. It's never going to be implemented, let alone strictly so that our kids never learn about other things we have come to deem as important at school.
    I am one who does think schooling places far too much emphasis on passing/failing, and that can erode the importance of imparting understanding of those principles being taught. Students learn to 'work' the system to pass and even to pass well, to get into uni to courses that others have placed high value on because they attract prestige.
    Now I'm being cynical The most important thing I want DS to take away from school is that learning can be enjoyable, especially when pursuing things of interest. I couldn't give a stuff if he 'fails' geometry at school, if in the process he found it interesting, just not relevant to his primary interests.
    Not surprisingly, I'm exploring various educational options for DS outside of mainstream school, because I have a feeling he may not 'fit in' to mainstream methods. Maybe he will, and we have a few years yet to see what would suit him.
    I like what this dissertation makes me think about, though, so thanks, Chloe
    ETA:
    I also believe that there are parents who are woefully inadequately equipped to teach the things this guy talks about...of COURSE there are. So, what do we do? Leave those kids to learn physics and art history and keep the cycle of real life ignorance going? Like this guy says, these kinds of kids model from parents who modelled off their parents and the loss of our 'village' means that it will continue to happen unless the artificial village takes measures to compensate. And it's not just isolated cases...I know there are plenty of families in my area alone that have no idea how to teach real life things like sex and intimacy to their kids (for example). It's a collective cop out to place all responsibility back onto the parents when those same parents have no idea how to impart these important life skills.
    Last edited by Smoke Jaguar; September 8th, 2008 at 07:17 PM. : late thought

  12. #12
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    6,706

    This may be different in other schools in other areas... but it's hard to interest kids in forming a budget when they have no need for one (huge amounts of pocket money and parents fork out for pretty much anything and everything). By the time most people actually have a NEED for a budget and develop the interest in actually creating one, they are far from the influence of an educator!

    Finishing schools, perhaps? A return to vocational colleges and academic colleges?

    Regardless of what ever is done, no education system can be everything to everyone.

    BW

  13. #13
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Feb 2006
    South Eastern Suburbs, Vic
    6,054

    Hehe BW, don't get me started on our need for tech schools.

  14. #14
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    So I believe that it's very important that schools include that practical teaching as part of a student's experience. Or find ways to make other teaching relevant...fitting English skills into letter and resume writing, going to an international restaurant to use language skills, bringing an actual torn item of clothing into textiles, doing a budget in maths. So many students don't see the relevance in the things that they're learning, I know I certainly struggled to see how I would use teddy bear making and American history in my life.
    You couldn't see how teddy-bear making was important? Pillow-making was daft, I agree, but I enjoyed making a bear (that was for extra marks though). American history was not important but at least it was taught by someone interesting so it wasn't a chore. I mean, I'm English, we have enough history without importing it! But I still like learning history and so does DH, so we often take DS to historical castles and museums, which he seems to enjoy.

    OK, so you learn how to write a CV at school - what does it replace? And I was graded on a CV at Uni - how do you do that? I mean, each CV is individual for each job, you can't do a bog-standard one and have it graded! I'd big-up different skills on a CV for a shop job than I would for a laborartory job than I would for an admin job. Would it replace... the Shakespeare module? The poetry appreciation module? Would the Chaucer study be cut short, or would the book not be read aloud in the class? I cannot teach or advise on the ins and outs of The Merchant of Venice nor can I talk through Of Mice and Men, but I can look through a CV. OK, others cannot. So why not have a school careers officer (remember them?) who will look through it?

    Everyone should be able to write a letter and write one well before leaving primary school. They may not want to but they can.

    I just want to know what's being dropped for this. I don't want my son learning things he knows from home all the time and missing out on his actual education. (Although I'd love to home-school just so I could do the whole lot and not focus on just passing exams, although I will every night ask him what he learned at school and make sure he learnt it, not just how to regurgitate it in an exam if I don't teach it myself.)

  15. #15
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    6,706

    Hehe BW, don't get me started on our need for tech schools.
    I'm a FIRM believer in them myself! I can't prepare a student for life in a university setting and the skills they will need to cope there at the same time as I prepare a student for an apprenticeship or the like.

    What's the point in forcing someone who's bound for TAFE or a trade to sit through the HSC exams and write essays on history or Shakespeare, play with trig identities or deal with chemical equilibrium equations? How does poetry help the student who aims to be a mechanic? How does poetry help the student wanting to become a doctor for that matter?!

    One of my biggest frustrations is that so many students are forced into doing the final two years of academic schooling when it is really just putting them in a holding pattern and putting them, us and the other students through misery!

    Yes, it was a frustrating day with my senior students.

    BW

  16. #16
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    I do agree that people who wish to learn a trade should be able to opt out earlier.

    But the need for poetry shouldn't be underestimated! It's not about rhyme and meter (although that is a part of it) - it's about the joy of words. About communication. About being heard and understood. About getting your feelings out. About enjoying and feeling and just being. You can't write a good poem if you aren't there, if you don't REALLY feel it.

    About half of what the initial article was about LOL. Maybe we should bring in more poetry, and earlier, and that would solve all our problems. Oh yes, and learning and reciting poetry can help defend the brain against aging diseases and dementias, just as being able to do crosswords, play chess and do maths can. Chemical equations may not feature in your adult life, but having the mental power to do them will mean a LOT because you've started to use your brain a bit. Altogether now: 'Twas brillig...

  17. #17
    Moderator

    Oct 2004
    In my Zombie proof fortress.
    6,449

    I'm a FIRM believer in them myself! I can't prepare a student for life in a university setting and the skills they will need to cope there at the same time as I prepare a student for an apprenticeship or the like.

    What's the point in forcing someone who's bound for TAFE or a trade to sit through the HSC exams and write essays on history or Shakespeare, play with trig identities or deal with chemical equilibrium equations? How does poetry help the student who aims to be a mechanic? How does poetry help the student wanting to become a doctor for that matter?!

    One of my biggest frustrations is that so many students are forced into doing the final two years of academic schooling when it is really just putting them in a holding pattern and putting them, us and the other students through misery!

    Yes, it was a frustrating day with my senior students.

    BW
    That is what I liked about the Tassie system when I went through it. Years 11 and 12 in the public system were seperate from high school. At the end of year 10 you decided whether to do your HSC at college, go to Tafe, find an apprentiship or just drop out in the hope of finding a job. Not sure if it is still like that, but I hope it is.

    Got to get back to this, Miss 3 is calling.

  18. #18
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    Can I just ask a REALLY stupid question?

    In the UK we leave school at 16, having taken as many GCSEs as the school deems we will pass. We can then go on and do A-levels (or whatever they are becoming now) until 18 and then go to uni or get a job. We can do NVQs and GNVQs from the age of 14 (I think, but 14-16 is still in school alongside GCSEs - this is not a bad thing IMO) and learn trades that way. If you are doing a childcare or business GNVQ then you don't do various other topics such as technology or languages (WHY? Child carers NEED to know how to cook and speak IMO) but you do more practical-based learning with no exams, just coursework. Our year 11 is age 15-16 and compulsary education ends there. Years 12 and 13 are still called sixth form, thankfully, and that's a student's choice (or a student's parents' choice as is becoming more frequently the case).

    So what happens in Australia? Do you stay on for all the sixth form (age 18 when you leave) or do you stop at 16? And if you have to stay on, when are your exams? Do you do your basic exams at 16 then specialise until 18 or is it a prescribed curriculum until 18 with a mix of subjects?

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