Anyone else trying to help their baby nap better using gentle methods?

[mumiloo]

I have decided to spend the next few weeks making a serious effort to see if I can help DS to sleep more and easier during the day. I was wondering if anyone else is currently trying to do the same thing and if they would like to swap stories/ideas with me or just provide updates to each other on how things are going?

The reason why I want to do this is because he often doesn't get close to the amount of "recommended" day sleep. Not that my baby needs to do everything "by the book", but napping could be beneficial for his health and brain development, so it's worth seeing if I can help him here. Also on the days where his sleep is a bit chaotic/not much sleep, he can get a bit cranky and I want him to have happy days. If I try a few different things for a few weeks and he still doesn't sleep so good, it'll be ok. I can live with things the way they are- I will just keep doing what we have been doing, which usually means putting him in a sling/carrier and getting on with things. But for a few weeks now I've been thinking every time I try to get my monkey to sleep, that "tomorrow" I'm gonna try something new.

My "disclaimer" is that if I get too stressed out or start getting cranky at him for "not" sleeping then I give myself permission to stop at any time and try again the next day .

I have been reading Dr Sears baby sleep book and have got a copy of 'no cry nap solution" which I haven't read yet. I'm gonna try some ideas from Dr Sears first, then maybe NCNS (don't want to try too many different things at once).

This is my plan starting tomorrow:
* Keep a log of his tired signs and nap times for a week to see if there is any pattern
* Try to put him to sleep as soon as I see the tired signs (and have everything ready to go i.e. nappy changed etc already)
* Use "music for dreaming" as a sleep cue
* Go outside and be active during "up time"
* Continue feeding to sleep for now, but if it's not working, to experiment with "wearing him down" in the sling and then transferring him to bed
* Wear him around in the sling or read books to him in bed 20 mins before I think he might get tired
* If I notice a pattern of tired times after a week, to start the "going to sleep" process 20 mins before I expect him to get tired.


What do you think?

I would love to chat with anyone else trying similar things.

[Arcadia]

Hi mumiloo...I am in the same boat, but my little one is much younger. I have tried some NCSS techniques and they worked at first, but I am having a SHOCKING week WRT naps. She only sleeps for 30mins at a time.

I would love to swap ideas and experiences. ATM I am at the stage where I am going to use the sling all this week, just to get her grounded again...then try again.

[mumiloo]

Hi anna, I thought I might see you here after your post about short sleep cycles!

Sounds like a good idea to "sling it" for a week if last week was pretty stressful. Does she sleep for long in the sling? My DS used to sleep for a couple of hours in the hugabub, it was great! I would just pop him in and go to the shops and we'd both have a good day. Unfortunately now he will only sleep about 20 mins in any of our carriers (even less than he usually does in the bed) so I need to try something new...

Well yesterday I spent about 1.5 hours each time to get him to sleep for 40 mins! Doh! I think it might be a good idea to sling him through for about 1/2 hour before nap time as it does seem to calm him down a bit.

This morning even though he seemed tired and was getting sleepy on the boob after about 15 mins he perked up and wanted to roll around instead. We went out today so I just got him up and got on with things. He slept 20 mins in the ergo while we were out. When we got home I tried to put him to sleep as he had been yawning etc. Basically I spent an hour getting him to sleep but tried to make it really chilled out so I wouldn't get too stressed. I put the music for dreaming on (this was the first time I had done that) and settled down on the mattress with him. He fed on and off but would roll around a lot too. I read him a book about sleepy time. I had a little break after 40 mins to text DP and get some toast to fortify myself, then went back in. He finally (relatively calmly) fell asleep.

At 45 mins I heard him yell and he had rolled off the bed!

He's done this a few times now (it is a mattress on the floor) and normally he doesn't even notice he just smiles and keeps rolling, but I think he must have gotten a shock.

I cuddled him and he calmed down and fed and then went back to sleep and has now been asleep for almost 1.5 hours now! (i keep checking on him though as I really hope he did not hurt himself rolling off the bed and that is why he is sleeping... but as he has done the same thing before and not even cried, and he calmed down so quick, i think he is ok)

[Arcadia]

Hi mumiloo,

Thanks for the reply. 1.5 hrs! Thats a great nap!!

For me its still all about the dreaded catnaps...all that settling for a 30min nap. It seems you know ALL about it!!

WRT the hugabub - DD used to sleep in the hugabub for hours, but she seems to have stopped that too...I only got 30 mins out of her today.

I was going along ok because night times were getting progressively better, with 5 or 6 hour stretches most nights, but yes the last week has been awful. Last night she woke almost hourly after 3am...Arrgghhh!

I have decided to try the "Pantley gentle removal technique" to try and reduce DD's suck to sleep association. Pantley recommends doing this in the night, so I will have to stay awake through the night feeds

I think I am going to write up a plan based on a few ideas in the NCSS to see if I can get some regularity to her settling/sleeping, such as some sleep cues and varying the methods by which she goes to sleep. So far though I have struggled to find anything that settles her like my bbs...people keep telling me to pat or stroke her in her cot, and they honestly don't believe me when I say, she HATES it. Yep, will scream her head off!

She has to be in our arms to settle.

Your plan with a music cue is a good idea. I might try that too...

[Kristin27]

Hi, my DD is 9 mths old so older than your bubs, but I have spent the last month breaking the feeding to sleep habit. I decided to do it gradually. I refuse to do CC despite being told I HAVE to. Anyway I digress.

I now put DD in her cot sleepy but awake and she will most often go to sleep on her own.

Here is what I did:

Continue BFing to sleep but removing her before completely falling asleep. Once she was okay with that I moved to BFing her, then waking her and rocking her to sleep in my arms, then no BF just rocking her to sleep, then started putting her into bed after rocking more awake each day.

Establish a pre- nap routine. Before naps I sit her in her bouncer for 10 minutes (to keep her from crawling so she winds down), then go to her room, close the blinds, sit on the couch and read a story. Then into sleeping bag, dummy in, cuddle/rock/shhh, then when she's calm into her cot. This has helped lots because she knows what coming.

To extend her nap time:

She often woke about 45 minutes into her nap, so I would wait next to her cot and when she first stirred i'd put her dummy in and pat her bottom, she would often drift back to sleep. If that didn't work I'd get her up still sleepy, (no talking keep things quiet) and BF her back to sleep. She would usually sleep another 45 minutes.

This was quite easy, no tears and she has adjusted really well because I haven't just suddenly changed things on her. Although it's not an overnight solution so you need to be committed.

And you're so right Mumiloo, if something isn't working or stressing either of you too much, BF him to sleep or do whatever you need to to get him to sleep for that nap. Then next nap try again. HTH.

[mumiloo]

Hi Anna re catnaps... I found it was about 2.5 months that I first started to try and extend his naps and at that point the "waiting around till he wakes up and settling him straight away" thing seemed to work, but then stopped working recently

Good luck with night time, I sort of tried the "Pantley Pull Off" as well when DS had a few nights of waking 5 or more times... it seems to help, although I am not sure if I do it "properly" as he has his eyes closed etc by the time I do it. Sometimes I find it less tiring to fall asleep when he feeds, even if it means waking up more times. He still has the odd night where he will wake up many many times, but usually around 3 times or so which I am ok with. He just seems to have these more tricky nights every now and then but usually it gets better without me neccessarily doing much, hoping it is the same for you?

Writing up a plan sounds like a great idea, it helps to actually decide on the ideas you are going to try I think because otherwise I get a bit overwhelmed and confused with all the different ideas.

Kristin thanks so much for writing in here and telling us about your experience I am glad it has been so successful for you guys. I had a question- Did you think it was essential to stop feeding to sleep in order for DD to have better naps?

(I am not neccessarily wanting to stop DS feeding to sleep, I would just like him to settle down easier and sleep longer)

Great idea about the prenap routine I think we really need to do something like that too. We have a set bedtime and prebed routine at night and it works really well, usually no matter what the day has been like he is asleep by 8pm. That's why I thought I would try get a bit more routine to the day as well, because it seems to work well at night. My problem now is his days are so chaotic that I have no idea what time he should be sleeping- I'm trying to watch for tired signs and track it so i can see if there is a pattern. It's hard because he wakes up at different times in the morning and sometimes has long, sometimes short naps.

Did you find DD had a set nap pattern or did you just decide on a time and start putting her to sleep then? With DS's bedtime we noticed he naturally seemed to go to sleep around 8, so started the bedtime routine at 6:30pm. But cos his days are a mess, I wouldn't know where to start.

The bouncer idea is a good one too, DS is very active at the moment and I think it would chill him out a bit, that's why I tried reading on bed because he will lie still for me when I'm reading.

I don't use a dummy at the moment, he had one for a little while when he was little but never really took to it, do you think it is essential to use a dummy?

And you're so right Mumiloo, if something isn't working or stressing either of you too much, BF him to sleep or do whatever you need to to get him to sleep for that nap. Then next nap try again.

Yes yes yes!! This morning was a shocker... not sure if I read the tired signals wrong or what but I spent the whole morning trying to get him to sleep and he had 2 naps of 10 and 20 mins... (and rolled off the bed again ) so I picked him up and HAB'ed him for a walk...

[Kristin27]

Hi Mummaloo,

No BFing to sleep didn't cause any problems with DD's naps, the reason I wanted to stop feeding to sleep is because I have to go back to work so others need to be able to put her down for naps/to bed.


To get your days naps in order, I would get bubs up at about the same time every morning (say within 1/2 an hour). DD is up between 7am and 7.30am, so she is always tired by about 9am-9.30am then goes down for her morning nap. I'm not too fussed with routines, but I find DD likes to have one, I worked it out by watching her tired signs which turned out to be the same times each day. Having the same start time in the morning really helps to make the day more predictable. You could get up 8am-ish if DS goes to bed at about 8pm? That would give him 12hours in bed at night.

When DD was five months old she would have three naps each day.
1: 8.30am-9am
2: 11.30am-12pm
3: 2.30pm-3pm

I usually don't let her sleep past 4.30pm so she's tired for bedtime at 7pm.

At five months I worked with about two hours being her limit of time awake. Most naps were one hour long, now that she's having two naps per day she's started sleeping longer on her own, up to 2.5 hours. If she wakes under one hour into her nap, I get her up quickly before she wakes fully and BF her back to sleep, this only works 60% of the time, if it doesn't I get her up and don't worry about it. She usually only wakes early from a nap if she's over tired, which doesn't make sense but she does!

I don't think it's essential to use a dummy at all, great if he settles without one!
i just find DD needs a 'prop' for sleep and I decided to use the dummy to replace the boob. Once that's sorted I'll get rid of the dummy.

[Arcadia]

HI Kristin and Mummiloo..I just had to brag...DD SELF SETTLED tonight!!

I have been doing a few things recommended for newborns:
- always putting DD down to sleep
- trying to get her to nap in a variety of places (i.e. stroller, car, rocking to sleep)
- using the Pantley's gentle removal technique (basically removing the nipple while DD is almost asleep...it takes quite a few go's...say six, but she gives up in the end).
- having more of a "routine" at night with sleep cues (I have been slowly implementing this over the last week)

So tonight I fed DD well and put her down when she was drowsy, but awake and instead of screaming, she just lay there and smiled up at me!! I thought..oh god this is going to end badly...but crept out and stood outside listening to her grizzle away until...ASLEEP!!

I know its probably a one off, and she might be up all night (she had her vax today) but I HAD to tell someone.

Also, thank you for the advice re- resettling. I tried that this arvo and she slept for 2 hours!!!!

Such success! It will probably be completely different tomorrow, but I feel like its a step forward.

Hooray!

[Kristin27]

Congrats Anna! Isn't it great when you walk out thinking theres no way she'll fall asleep without help, and ... she does it. A 2 hours nap is brilliant! Hope tomorrow is just as good.

[mumiloo]

Yay Anna !

Hi Kristen at the moment DS's wake time can vary but it's never 8am that would be great! He has been waking at 5:30am the last 3 nights in a row! So he usually sleeps about 10 hours (7:30-5:30). Before that he used to sleep till about 6:30am.

I have noticed that he seems to get tired after only an hour or so in the morning, so is usually napping again after 1.5 hours. But the rest of the day can vary, because sometimes he might sleep for 45 mins then, but sometimes close to 2 hours. He doesn't seem to respond to resettling after 45 mins any more. Also sometimes around 2pm he seems to want a nap but it's not every day. Yesterday I tried really hard to be home in time for that but he just didn't seem tired or want to sleep.

I know that if I "miss" the tired time he won't go to sleep again for another hour, that happened today. He was starting to fall alseep in the car around 2pm but we were close to home so I tried to keep him awake so he could have a proper sleep at home. But it was too late, he got his second wind, and wouldn't go down.

I have found that "slinging" him about 1/2 hour before a sleep seems to calm him down a bit and make it easier to get him to sleep.

[Kristin27]

When DD was five months old she would have three naps each day.
1: 8.30am-9am
2: 11.30am-12pm
3: 2.30pm-3pm

I just wanted to clarify this from my last post, sorry if it didn't make sense - the above times are when she went down for the naps, not the start and end time of her naps! So she would go down between 8.30am and 9am for her nap. Sorry bout that.

Mummaloo, sometimes DD won't re-settle either, such a pain but theres nothing else you can do. I think giving him the wind down time before every nap like the sling is a great idea, lets him know whats coming up.

Do you get him up at 5.30am? Maybe you could try leaving him in his cot an extra 10-15 minutes each day until 6.30am or whenever you want to get up?

DD is also more tired in the morning and often went back down at 8am for a nap at 5 mths old.

[mumiloo]

Thanks Kristen yeah I figured she was sleeping more than 1/2 hour!

How long do you guys try to put your little one to sleep before you give up?

[Arcadia]

Hiya girls...

Firstly to answer your questions mumiloo...1.5 hrs is my limit to try and put DD to sleep. Yeah I know...1.5hrs! It is usually about 20-30mins, but the more overtired she is the longer it takes...

I also thought I would update our nap status...it is the same. 4 or 5 30min naps.

I hired a hammock which worked wonders at first, but now she cries and cries in it, so I can tell its not a solution.

I have begun to dread nap times because I have to be creative so I don't go bonkers. Today DH and I drove down the coast so she would sleep in the car (yes I planned my weekend around her sleep...am I mad?)

I also try the pram (which works 60% of the time). At the moment the only sure fire way is bf to sleep or a walk in the sling outside (which is more relaxing for me).

I have tried resettling her after the first cycle, but have had minimal success. Even if she's in the pram ASLEEP and I keep walking and walking she will wake fully after 30 mins. The only one that works is to lie next to her while she sleeps and have my boob in line with her mouth so she can re-attach as soon as she stirs. She even wakes up in the sling now.

*Sigh*

When do they learn how to nap better? Or is this it?

[Tish]

Hi guys

I'm doing NCSS for day sleeps (library doesn't have the Nap one, I wonder what the difference is?).

Something I have tried doing drawing up a bit of a "routine". Now, we are not a routine house and he is NOT a routine baby (e.g. demand feeding), but this is what I have been trying at the books suggestion.

Getting him to bed much earlier than we were (8-8.30 instead of 10pm)

Drawing up a daily routine, and trying to stick to it within half an hour. So our routine is...

7.30-9.00 wake
9.00 down
9.30 sleep (lol hopefully)
11.00 wake
12.00 down
12.30 sleep
2.00 wake
3.00 down
3.30 sleep
5.00 wake
6.00 down
6.45 wake
7.00 dinner (we've started some solids)
8.00 bath
8.30 boobs then bed (not boobs to sleep!)

I tried to design these times around what he was naturally doing, of course he's not sleeping for 1.5hrs just 45 mins (and I also allowed half an hour settling time, as the wheels were often falling off because I was settling thrugh most of the sleep time). But what I've been trying to do is stay in his room and "settle" until it is "wake" time. I stay quiet and calm and darkened room until wake time. Then I leave the room for a minute (or less if he is crying, maybe 10 seconds or less) then come back in the room turn the light on and be happy and bright "Good morning my bubby".

I was thinking this way he'll learn OK this is about the time I'm supposed to be asleep or at least in the cot, and he would not get confused about OK why is she picking me up? Hope that makes sense.

I've also given him just a short nap at the end of the day so it fits with our nighttime routine better, and TBH sometimes he doesn't sleep at all.

Sometimes I figure that quiet time in the cot is as good as being asleep, especially if he's calm.

Like I said, I'm not really routine driven, but I figured he might learn by osmosis that he should be sleeping a bit longer at these times. Lately I'm pairing this with going back in to resettle him before he wakes up.

Anna you are NOT crazy for planning your weekend around sleep. For a while there DH was considering taking leave to help me teach DS how to sleep LOL.

I hear you on dreading nap time though - I was in the same place at 2 months old, thinking I KNOW i have to get you to sleep 4 times today and I have NFI how I am going to do that. All I can say is it did get a little better for us eventually. Sadly though, this was after I relented and started using a dummy, not sure how you feel about that.

At about 2-3 months old I did find that DS was settling better if I gave him a bit of personal space, so less of the rocking in arms to sleep patting and shhhing. He was responding better if I left him in the room on his own after saying "goodnight", and just went back in to comfort him as soon as he started crying (and I mean AS SOON, so def not CC). I would comfort until he was quiet and leave again. This way he was falling asleep inside 10-20 mins some days as opposed to 1.5 hrs the "in your face" way. I figured he just needed some space. It was about this time that he started to be more wakeful overnight when cosleeping and I noticed he was sleeping better in our bed on his own before we joined him so we also moved him to the cot for the "first sleep" of the night.

Anyway, it sounds like us 3 are having similar issues and are trying similar things, hopefully we can be of good support to each other!!! And I promise not to recommend Save Our Sleep LOL. I'll kill the next person that tells me to read that :P

Cheers,
Tish
xx

[Arcadia]

Hi girls. I thought I would give an update on our sleeping.

It is SOOOOO much better this week! I had to make some pretty dramatic alterations to the way I was doing things, but with gentle persistance and a step by step approach, DD is now self settling and only waking once in the night (after 8.5 hours). Her naps have also improved to at least an hour...

So....this is what I did.

Step 1: STOP feeding to sleep! I swapped feeds to the start of her cycle (yes, a feed, play then sleep routine). I instead rocked her to sleep or used the sling. This took only a few days for her to get the idea that feeding and sleep don't go together. I also had to wake her up as she was feeding (I suspect DD used to often fall asleep before she was finished, because now she takes both sides at more feeds).

Step 2: Experiment with ways of soothing DD in her cot. Now this one was HARD. Of course we are all about gentle parenting, and no-cry solutions, so this took some patience and a lot of picking her up and trying something new. I tried patting, rocking the whole frame of the cot, but found holding her hands and placing my cheek to hers and speaking lovingly into her ear, she stopped crying instantly. I had to do this over quite a few days so she was only crying for a short spurts as I tried to find out our no-cry solution to settling in the cot.

Step 3: Put DD to sleep in the cot ALL THE TIME. I had to stay home for a few days and stop using the sling etc.

Step 4: Put DD to sleep in the cot when she shows tired signs. When she cries comfort her, but stop BEFORE she falls asleep. So its a real start-stop approach. Start comforting when she cries and stop when she stops. This took persistance but it means DD learnt that she was ok, I was ALWAYS there and she could fall asleep on her own.

Step 5: know the difference between whinging and crying and try and ignore the whinging. Now most people would complain if there were put to bed without any say in it, and my DD does whinge a little sometimes, but its like a grizzle and stops after about 10 seconds or so, and might start again. Its like a gurgle, gurgle, gurgle. I call it her sleep story, but I am hovering like a hawk until she falls alseep to make sure I am right there as soon as she cries.

Soo...that's it. It felt a little bit harder on her than I ever thought I would be. But she never cried for more than 20 seconds during this process and was ALWAYS comforted, and the results have been phenomenal. Last night she went to bed with eyes wide open and was asleep within 5 minutes without a peep. That is SUCH an improvement on 40 minutes of settling.

It has also improved our experience of the car and the pram. She no longer screams at me when she is tired and can nod off on her own.
I hope this is helpful to others, because it has transformed my life!!!

[oleary]

hello ladies,

I an new to this. I have a 3 month old that doesn't sleep during the day more than 15-20 mins at each nap time. Therefore is extremely tired all day. I used to rock her to sleep and she had the dummy, which the child health nurse advised has caused my problems.

she said that when my daughter gets to her next sleep cycle and wakes up she cannot put herself back to sleep as she has relied on me.

We are in the process of day 2 of control crying. Very hard thing to do. She fell asleep last night after an hour of crying. I tried to put her down for a nap this morning. Another hour of crying with only 20 minutes of sleep. Tried this afternoon. Another 50 minutes of crying with only 20 minutes of sleep. She lasted 15 minutes after that and is now very tired and jerky. Put her down again, but don't think I can listen to her cry for another hour as her cries are now so hoarse.

Has anyone tried any no cry sleeping techniques that work?

Really need some help

[Salsa]

I need to join this thread too. I just wrote a new thread about asking how to get him to sleep longer but I have spoken in another thread to Anna about the constant exhaustion of constantly having to craddle & wear the baby etc.

[Arcadia]

Hi Oleary...If you want my advice, I would stop the control crying now!!!

There ARE gentle ways of helping your baby sleep. Have you read through the steps I took? My baby went from sleeping 30 mins ONLY in the day to having two 2+ hour sleeps a day (she has been asleep for the last 2 hours). I also recommend the No Cry Sleep solution book if you can get your hands on it (try the local library).

Where are you based? I can give you the number of a great place in Melbourne that offer a mentor style sleep support in your home. They adapt their methods to suit your parenting style.

Its ok if your baby needs you to help them sleep, but you CAN improve on how they fall asleep so they stay asleep, and all without crying.