Trying to Conceive after Stillbirth/Late Loss/Recurrant Miscarriage October

Paula, thinking of you today on Charlie's EDD.

Jo, Dr Wallace sounds like just the person you need. So glad that he's given you a step by step way forward. I really, really touched me to hear that Josh and Em got to meet both Jack and Madison and hold them and love them. Fills my heart with so much hope and love!

Sue, thank goodness for the great diagnosis. What was bubs like this time? What's changed in two weeks. I love these sneaky peeks!

Congrats too Laney on your HGC levels. Onwards and upwards!

Oh Helen, a ticker! And a very cool one too. It's going to zip like Katie's.

Hugs to all others.

Hi Girls

Well I seemed to have survived today (EDD) without tears. DH and I are going for dinner tonight. I have also been invited to work drinks beforehand which I think I might go to, just to keep me occupied. I must admit when I was walking to work I felt like screaming out to everyone what today is so that everyone could stop and acknowledge. I was a bit the same at work. Sometimes you just want the world to stop and acknowledge your child and your grief and the fact that it never goes away. Of course everyone else has no idea and just keeps on with their lives but I had to stop myself several times from just blurting it out.

Anyway, maybe I will get drunk and work drinks and do it then!!!!

Sue: I was so relieved that your appt went well and that all seems to be going to plan. I have such a good feeling about this PG for you. It just seems like it is meant to be.

Laney: also good news on the HCG levels. Fingers crossed your next results are just as good!

Jo: what a relief you must feel after your appt. Sounds like this doc is really onto it. Makes me want to move back to Melb. Since my follow up with my OB I have had several questions come up that I'd like to ask before ttc. One is about having multiple losses after a healthy bub. It's great that you can contact them anytime before or after ttc. I'm sure my OB would be fine as he is really lovely but good that you didn't even have to ask.

Anyway, will let you all know how the rest of EDD goes but just wanted to say well done on all the good results girls.

love
Paula
xox

Hi all,

Jo, I'm really glad you've found a doctor willing to take care if you, knowing that everything that can be done to protect your baby will done. I feel so much better going through the high risk clinic this time, although they're fairly hands off- 6 weeks between appointments this time- but at least I know if anything were to happen they would have every tool available to help. Good luck discussing the issues with your DH tonight, I hope you share a common vision for your family's future.

Sue, so glad everything's ok, I was thinking about you at work today. It's amazing how fast they grow now isn't it!!

Cindee, how did the OB appointment go today?

Paula, thinking of you as you remember Charlie. Glad that the day is almost over and you and DH will spend the evening together.

Helen, nice to see the ticker, almost 7 weeks, seems like just yesterday you were saying your temp had dropped so you couldn't possibly be pregnant!!!

Tildy, I'm glad you had a nice EDD together. Having the 17 week mark and the EDD close together is rough but you're doing so well.

Lan, you have your pre-conception counselling soon correct? What does it entail?

Katie, so looking forward to your birth announcement!!!

Laney, I'm so glad the hormones look good, how far along are you now? And I just wanted to say how awful it must have been for your SIL to compare your experience with her 2 abortions, that has to be the worst comparison I've heard yet. I'm not anti-abortion as such, but when you go through something as deeply painful as what we have the thought of people close to you aborting healthy babies for reasons of convenience or readiness is just something we don't want to deal with, let alone be told it's similar to our experience. Some people have no situation awareness.

As for me, things are ticking along, bump is getting nice and big, think I have till the end of next week in my uniform then I'll really be pushing it. The thought of announcing it like that still scares me though. Took out the doppler on monday and DH listened as well, got the HB super strong and loud, bub must have been right up close! Feeling sporadic kicks too, all very exciting. I have a friend who normally lives overseas coming over for dinner on the weekend so I suppose he'll be the first of the friends who finds out.

Anyway, gotta fly,

Love Rozzie

Paula - thinking of you and Charlie today on her EDD. I am glad to hear that although it has been hard you have gotten through it. Enjoy dinner tonight with your DH. :hug:

Jo - this Ob sounds fantastic. It makes such a difference to have someone who is highly qualified managing your next pregnancy. I feel the same way about Mark. Whilst I know he has done nothing to keep this baby with us, I just feel so safe in his care and I believe that has made the world of difference. I know it will be hard when you start to TTC again. Speak to your husband and help each other through what will be at times a difficult journey. Look after yourself! :hug:

Sue - so happy to hear that you had a great ultrasound and that your bub is a groover. Glad to hear that the bleeding is nothing serious.

Tildy - any news? I hope that your bleeding really does stop once and for all so you can relax fully. You have had such an up and down time, it must be exhausting.

Laney - great news on the HCG results. I hope the next ones are just as comforting.

Helen - well done on the ticker. It is scary isn't it! I had a hard time putting mine up but a lot of women both here and in the preg thread were really supportive and eventually I caved. You will love watching it move forward. I have often shown mine to DH and he gets a real thrill out of seeing the weeks tick by.

Lan - How are you? I hope you are well. You are moving forward to your TTC start - are you getting excited or nervous?

Hi to everyone else. Hope you are well. I have done nothing but sleep and be lazy today. Tomorrow I get the carseat fitted (promise I won't cry!) and then have an Ob appointment afterwards. Take care.

Hi Ladies,

Jo, I am glad that you feel comfortable with your high risk doctor. Make sure that you spend some time thinking over and researching the heparin idea. They will most likely leave that decision up to you and your DH. If you want it, it sounds like they will give it to you.

As for me, I went in to get my bloods done a second time today. I didn't really look at the slip before I went in, they took 10 different viles. They should have the hcg levels back today but I'm sure they wont call me back until tomorrow or Monday. I did talk to the doctor early today (only after I called twice). He thinks the rash around my injection sites is due to a change in the lovenox batch. It started with a new box. I changed boxes so we will see how that works. He didn't sound too worried because it was localized to the small injection areas and it didn't start earlier.

Parker 7/27/07 @ 22 weeks :angel:
Shelby 5/27/08 @ 28 weeks :angel:
bean 9/5/08 @ 5 weeks :angel:

:redface:im so disgusted, i was weighed at the ob's yesterday and i was 86.9kg i started at 78 kg thats a huge jump. but baby was good. my BP was up before i seen heartbeat then it dropped after i seen it.:dance:
looks like things are moving along good just hope it stays that way.
been told i have to de-stress. so looks like ill have to give up classes for now.:(
Have my NT scan booked for wednesday too, soo ill see bubba again:dance:
looks like the spotting was nothing so thats good.
hope everyone is doing well :)

Hi all,

Man it has been quiet in here.....

Lan - How is the TTC preparation going???? Hoping it is going well for you and look forward to hearing good news soon.

Paula - You are an amazing woman!!! thinking of me on Charlie's EDD. How did the rest of the day go??? Looks like you had it all planned and I am hoping you enjoyed those drinks...

Jo - :hug: fo you.... I can understand the emotions in going into the TTC again. Even with me and DH, the TTC and miscarriages has changed our relationship. I am so glad you have found a good Dr.

Laney - How did the 2nd lots of bloods go??? Looking forward to hearing from you.

Helen - 7 week mark - yippee How are you going??? Any morning sickness???

Rozzie - Yah for maternity clothes, though I think you have done very well staying out of them so far...... Must admit I have been snooping on Ebay and have picked up a few bargains.

Cindee - Wow that is a jump in weight, but don't worry about it..... I have the other concer, I am not really putting on any weight (actually have lost 1/2 kilo in the past week), though my Dr said that having PCOS etc (which she has the same). She was telling me that she lost 15 kilos in both of her pregnancies because our hormones actually go normal and we lose the excess weight.

Tildy - How are you??? How are you feeling and what has been happening???

Katie - Not long now. Your ticker is going so fast!!!! Hope mine does as well... How did you hold-up with getting the car seat fitted. It is very understandable though and you just need to let your emotions happen.

Well with me, I still have a little of brown staining when I go to the toilet and wipe. But I am all calm after seeing bubs happy and wiggling.

The Ob actually said that the only reason he can think for the bleeding is that the placenta is getting bigger and attaching to the uterus walls which has lots of blood vessel and this can cause some slight bleeding.

I hope when I go to the Ob again on Tuesday that he does another u/s... so I can see bubs again. I just love seeing s/he.

I am in a little dilemma whether to have the NT Scan or have the bloods at 16 weeks instead.... My Ob remarked that because of my reaction, he is wondering if it is a good idea to have the NT Scan, because if it comes back with a "high risk" then I have to wait until 16 weeks to have an amnio if I want that..... very confused about it all at the moment.....

xxx Sue xxx

Sue,

can't you have a CVS at about 13 weeks? Jude in the pregnancy forum had one recently so chat to her... She had an NT scan at the usual time then a CVS not much after so there wouldn't be much of a weight, and if the NT results came back normal you have the option of no further invasive tests if you want. That's what I would personally do, I would not want to go through an amnio/CVS unless the scan pointed to a problem, but it's up to you of course.

hi everyone!
syran - my daughter is chucking a wobbly so this a quickie -i am so happy to read that you are talking 16 weeks. it says alot about how your mindframe has switched to a more positive even in light of slight blood colouring! i wanted to say how happy i was for you as getting to that thought pattern is such a process in itself! :dance: And do what you feel is right re: scanb etc. Either way, you have options so maybe book the ultrasound for 12 weeks and if you feel you don't want to go just cancel the appoint and do the 16 week check. that way your covered either way!
i'll get on later hopefully for the rest of you!
xx jo
p.s paula and katie special hi's to you for the last few days! :grouphug:

jo76,
Just thought I would let you know that in my opinion, you are in the best possible hands with Euan Wallace. He is fantastic. I am probably one of the people he has in mind when he mentioned women having normal pregnancies and then suffering a late loss. And also going on to having another uneventful pregnancy after. I first saw him just over 8 years ago. He is so compassionate and also passionate about his profession. He just loves his work, helping women to deliver healthy babies. I know he can't guarantee a perfect outcome but he will do his best for you.

All the best and hugs,
Debbie

Sorry I haven't written in a couple days, but thanks for asking after me, Sue and Katie. It's a bit rough here... physically and pregnancy-wise everything is just fine. But the economic crisis seems to have haunted our little house pretty big time all of a sudden. Both me and DH have had the suddenly-called meeting at work where they announce nasty stuff, so he's getting a 10% paycut and I'm possibly getting laid off, and that's just on top of how fun it currently is to be the owners of a brand-new home and a brand-new stock portfolio both purchased in 2007... all this is pretty ****ty on the baby-on-the-way funds.

Sorry for selfishly complaining, but that's what's dominating my thoughts atm.

oh no! You poor thing Tildy, I can totally understand that dominating your thoughts with a baby on the way. We put most of our savings into managed funds at the beginning of last year too, I haven't even looked at how much we've lost as I don't want to know yet. I hope you don't get laid off, let us know how things work out.

Tildy - it sounds like the economic crisis has hit you very hard. I can't believe they can make your DH take a 10% paycut - but I suppose that is better than retrenchment. Will you get a redundancy package if you lose your job? We also have shares but thankfully the bulk of our savings is in the bank as we are saving for a home deposit. I haven't bothered to look at what our shares are doing as I know it will be bad. This is the last thing you need what with all that has already happened to you in the last 12 months. :hug:

Rozzie - look at your ticker! 16 weeks how exciting.

Thanks all for your support with my carseat story. I have shed so many tears this week, what with the carseat and then the remembrance day for all lost angels. I am feeling much better now and I had the carseat fitted without even a thought of crying. In fact when I read Sue's post I thought 'Oh yeah, I thought I might find it hard'. I had seriously forgotten about it. So that must be a good sign. Thank you for being so supportive of me, when you are all going through such emotional times yourself, what with grieving for your angels coupled with the stress of TTC and early pregnancy. It means so much to me to still be able to come here and support and be supported.

I saw my Ob yesterday and he said the baby is now fully engaged. He asked if I have packed my bag and I had to admit I hadn't. He told me that I should do it, so I am washing the final things and getting it all ready. I have no idea what to pack for me. It still seems kind of surreal.

I hope you all have lovely weekends planned. Take care :grouphug:

Katie... bag packing... how exciting. I so can't wait to hear your birth announcement. It will give all of us such a boost and we are all just so happy and excited for you.

Tildy... that is such awful news for you. I hope things work out ok. At least the PG is going well so you have something to be positive about. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the financial stuff sorts itself out.

As for me, Charlie's EDD was quite uneventful in the end. Work drinks were a nice distraction and then DH and I had a lovely dinner. I went to bed feeling really flat though. The next morning (yesterday) I woke up and just burst into tears and then didn't really stop crying all day. I was home with DS and I guess not having the distraction of work, everything hit me like a ton of bricks. I just couldn't get the thought of being in the OB's rooms when he couldn't find a heartbeat out of my head. I kept getting that same feeling of fear and panick rush over my body and my wish to be able to go back and change the outcome was just so overwhelming. I just felt so helpless that no matter how much I wanted to change the outcome of that day I just couldn't. I then kept thinking about xmas and how this is the 2nd year on a row that we have been expected to share it with a new baby in the family and also the 2nd year in a row we won't be.

Whilst I was feeling so down I also decided to open Charlie's death certificate. The words still make me feel sick. I just sat there and stared at it for such a long time. It was like I wanted there to be a reason on there as to why this had to happen. Interestingly it did say that the cause of death was a cord accident. My OB never went as far as to say that he was certain of this but I guess at the time it was the only thing he could put it down to.

Anyway, I'm feeling a little calmer today. I also have an appt with the specialist about my thyroid on Monday. I was wondering if you girls who are on medication found a difference in your anxiety/mood levels.

I have this real sensitivity at the moment which I am finding hard to live with. Stories on the news about kids being sick or dying really upset me and every time I feel a twinge or something I feel like I am going to get sick and die and leave DH and DS alone. I had cancer 8 years ago and I felt the same straight after that but it had gotten better. Now with losing Charlie it seems to have come back but much more severe. DH wants me to see someone about depression but I am very anti medication etc for that (and for anything really). It just seems like I am so acutely aware of how vulnerable I am and that I have no control over what is going to happen next. Everyone else (not you girls) has the luxury of saying it will never happen to me but I have 2 serious examples that it can happen to me and I don't really know how to deal with it.

I know depression is a known side effect to thyroid issues so I am hoping that once I am on that medication things may improve. That is why I was wondering if anyone else had noticed that once on the medication. Also if anyone else experiences the same feelings of anxiety. My GF says it is only natural given how soon it is after losing CHarlie but I guess because I feel like I am coping well most of the time I feel like I should be coping all of the time.

Sorry for the ramble but I just really would love to hear if any of you can shed any light or experiences.

Paula
xox

Paula,

I've been on thyroid medication since I was 8 years old so I can't say if I noticed a change in my mood or not. There ARE some things I tend to notice if I forget my medication one morning, most notably that I get these pains in my legs that remind me of bein 8 years old and lying sleepless in bed; I remember that I thought it was normal to have sore legs every night. But you're right that hypothyroidism and depression have a link. And for me, there is a LOT of anxiety almost all the time, but I feel that's a personality thing for me really. I'm a planner and a worrier, and those two things are a scary combination.

I recognize what you're saying about sensitivity. All stories about dying kids or mothers or fathers on the news send me into myself. Imagine if I lose DH? Imagine if I have the children I'm longing for and then an accident takes them away? I feel a deep sorrow for the people involved, as I'm starting to develop an empathy that I never had before. I was watching a movie by myself the other day, one of these where it's a family with grown kids that all love each other. In a side-plot the mom gets breast cancer and dies, all while her one daughter is pregnant and her son is about to adopt a baby. I broke down imediately (there were such strong images in the movie, a picture of the mom when she was pregnant with her daughter) and just started bawling, the kind where the more your face gets contorted, the better it feels. I was thinking: My mom had breast cancer, so I might get it, and what if I die before I get to have grandchildren? What if I never make it to that family that I want? It's not the first time in the last few months that a movie has sent me into that same spiral.

I was treated for depression in different ways for some years, and have gone through some pretty tough patches. I took medicine, and eventually decided myself to get off it, as I felt it was only providing me with side effects. Instead I started to feel better once I started improving the very real downsides of my life that were exaccerbating the depression. I still have a harder time with emotions than most people, and have days or periods where I don't feel too keen on getting out of bed and don't feel motivated (there have been many of those periods since losing Beiron), but I feel equipped to battle it without medication.

Since losing Beiron I'm seeing a counselor, I saw that her description of me in their schedule has gone from "miscarriage" to "pregnancy anxiety," but we do talk about so many other things. We've both decided that I have a whole lot of baggage to talk about and that I really need some support. Well, I KNEW that already, but since I'd seen counselors before and I felt they'd never helped, I had stopped seeking that help. This lady is, though, very good for me. I told her I was scared losing Beiron would drive me into a new depression because I didn't want to take medicine again, but she said she didn't believe in medicating first and that she understood me. And for the first time in a counselor's office, I feel helped. I'm lucky that a terrible experience has thrust me into a relationship with her, because I think it's going to help me handle being a mom in a way I wouldn't have had otherwise. I don't know how long I'll get to keep seeing her, and I'm afraid that if they move me to another person if I want to continue counseling after I'm no longer classed as "pregnancy anxiety" (she works in the gynecological clinic) that I'll once again have that feeling of "why am I here and what's the point?" But one thing I've noticed the other times I've been to counselors is that it feels good to talk to an outside person about why you're hurting, even if it just feels better for that one hour.

I don't think you're coping any worse than anyone else, Paula, I want to say that. But I don't think it's wrong to see someone, either. I just wanted you to know that a good counselor will understand that you don't want to take medicine and want to try other methods first. The other bit of advice is to get exercise -- exercise is pretty much the best medication for depression there is, and while it can be hard to motivate yourself to do it if you're feeling down (vicious downward spiral!), if you can manage to get into it it becomes a positive upward spiral.

Good morning all,

What a cooler day in Adelaide it is today. Much better than yesterday!!!

OMG Katie, how exciting..... I can't wait until you tell us the news, I am so excited for you and hoping everything goes well.

Tildy - so sorry you and DH are going through a rough time with employment etc, but I am so glad bubs is going well. Thats all you need is the stress of this!!! We have been lucky, we have a house already and any extra money we have goes straight into the mortgage and not shares....though I do have super and am sure that his been hit quite heavily.

Paula - I have also been on thyroid medication since I have been 25. Though what I remember is that I used to be tired all the time and fall asleep anywhere!!!! But I am similar to Tildy is that I am a planner and a worrier as well. Must be some sort of trait... I also think about losing DH and also my baby boy Ollie (dog) etc etc, I used to wonder where this comes from and I am so glad others feel like this as well.

Jo - how are you going. I think about you all the time. Thank you for the post, yes I have come more into a positive mode, after seeing bubs also at 10 weeks made me feel much more confident.

Rozzie - thanks for the advice. My last resort would be to have an CVS/Amnio, but the Ob said there is some bloods that can be taken later to check for Downs and others etc.

I have been chatting with Flowerchild and she has made this a lot clearer for me, she has an amazing amount of knowledge and I appreciate it.

My Ob kind of made me feel that because of my age I would definately be in the "high" risk range, though this can happen, I am feeling a little more positive about it. The Ob didnt want me to stress for 4 weeks, if I decide to have the Amnio (the worrier part comes in!!!)

Speaking with DH tonight about it, but I have the feeling I would like to have the NT Scan and blood as 12 weeks and go from there. I just have to remember that if I do get a "high" risk category, it doesnt always mean the bubs has downs or anything else.

Hello to Helen, Lan, Cindee and any others I have missed. Hope you are all doing well and look forward to hearing from you guys soon.

xxx Sue xxx

Hello my dear friends

I haven't had enough time for you lately and I miss you! Our internet at home has run out for the month and work has been too busy but I haven't stopped thinking about you and read your posts everyday.

Katie, I am SO excited for you, I really wanted to scream and do a victory dance for you when I read about packing your bags. Oh my goodness. I can't wait to hear all about the birth and what it's like to finally hold that crying baby in your arms. :dance:

Paula, I don't think you have depression. I have subclinical hypothyroidism and my naturopath has me on a herbal supplement called ThyroCo. Since I've been on it, I feel like I have a little more energy, but even though my BBT hasn't gone up that much, I feel like my body is more heated.

Your extra sensitivity and general emotional state sound like a normal part of grieving. Facing your daughter's death certificate is a horrific experience and it's no surprise that you've reacted the way you are. I went to see my homoeopath about all the rage I've been feeling and she did say that anger is one of the seven stages of grieving. She said it's good to express it but not dwell on it.

When you said that you'll TTC in Dec, did you mean after AF in December? Because I'm thinking that we'll TTC after the Nov AF which will end up being end of Nov.

Tildy, I'm sorry to hear about all the hassles with yours and DH's jobs. Like you need to be stressed at this time! I hope if they let you go, they'll pay you a big redundancy package.

Jo, those urns sound sweet. I'm just sorry that you ever had to buy them.

Sue, good on you for deciding on the NT Scan. You are sounding much more positive and I'm glad the coloured discharge was nothing.

Rozzie, did you tell your friend about your pregnancy? How did that go?

Hugs and kisses to everyone else. Must go, people are demanding stuff. Boo hiss.

hi guys!
This is my first chance to write on here over the weekend. I have had sneaky qick checks but have'nt been able to write now. It has been a long weekend esp for DH but i'll get to that in a minute! You guys first!
syran -i saw your posts with flowerchild and she is amazing in her ability to make the most complicated iisues seem so straight forward. She is a blessing to this site and to us all! Its so hard with "high risk" values out on things these days. I would never have imagined i would be considered a high risk preg loss candidate but here i am! I think all you can do is follow you gut as you are presented with testing about what is right for YOU and go from there! Good luck with making the decision...either way i hope it continuesto support your positve state of mind as that is really important!
Paula - i am not on thyroid meds but have heard the link. (and i am trying desperately hard to remember where i saw or read it!!) So i am glad a couple of the other girls can help you out with your question. Your quote - "I then kept thinking about xmas and how this is the 2nd year on a row that we have been expected to share it with a new baby in the family and also the 2nd year in a row we won't be. " this is so me and DH right now. I read that sentence and i could have typed it myself word for word. I picked up a layby from ages ago for Joshs birthday (which is today) and i forgot that a part of it was a baby toy that i had layby'd for Madison for christmas. We are DREADING this christmas! I will spend this christmas day in tears again which is so unfair for josh and Em but it is a day that last year and this year strongly signifies what we have lost for some reason. And worse, if they happen at DHs parents house last year i'll have everyone alienate me again cos they are so uncomfortable with my grief so it should be a blast! So i wanted to tell you I know exactly how you feel there! i am sending you so much love and hugs right now!
tildy -OMG! You have come through so many things so far with leaps and bounds (even if they feel like only small ones!), i can't imagine how you are feeling with both your and dhs jobs! i am keeping my fingers crossed that all is good for yours right now! selfishly complain away tildy -thats what we are here for!
cindee- i put on 20kg with josh and although it seems alot it did'nt look alot! My Ob does'nt weigh which is great cos i beleive unless it IS medically necessary it sounds worse than it is!!!! good luck for wed!!!
angel babies 3 - thankyou for writing about Prof Wallace. You have helped back up my good feeling about him. My gut felt great but it is always good to read about a personal experience. Really appreciate it!!!
hammi - how are you going???? you are always in my thoughts! You pre preg is just a few weeks away now - do you have any thoughts on what you will ask?
Laney - your right the heparin will be left up to be decided by us. i like that the option is there but they will do there if necess not just because it is. It would be huge decision to make as i am not big on medication anyway, my body is quite sensitive so i am a little wary and have googled it to death! How are you going? heard anymore yet?
katie - my heart leapt when i heard you packing your bags (or at least being told to!) Another huge milestone reached! Your ticker is almost there!!!soon.....:dance::clap::dance:
rozzie- hope you are ok?> have'nt heard much from you!!!

well before i go (i am getting a pap smear soon!:o) i just wanted to let you know about poor DH. After 2 + months of barely anything from his side of the family he copped it on sat while i was at work. he made the mistake of popping in there before his mates place and got hit up by my MIL.How is Jo, how are you? you need to find hobbies, you need a sport, you need to get out and meet people, you need to have time away from them (as in us), you needf counselling. jo needs counselling, you need to make her do it (to which he replied he would not make me do anything), you need to talk to someone, you need to call your brother (still going on about my mistake with ems party! GET OVER IT!!!) blah blah blah. it made me so mad i cried. She has barely said anything in the last couple of months and then decided because he said things were'nt great at home that he should get it all in one go. i said she cannot suddenly decide to offer support NOW when she could'nt even come to madisons service because she had worked the night before. DH does'nt want to be ther at all for christmas but knows it will start a world war 3 if we don't and all he wants to do is go away and we can't as i'll be working the whole way through. He was so frustrated and i am still a bit ****ed off. I said it took them 5 days to send us a card or flowers and he said they asked if they should so that is when they obviously got sent. :wall::wall::wall: x 1000! We have'nt even spoken about trying again yet, esp after that but josh came up to me last night and asked if when we make another baby if we can call him Yugi (after the yugioh cards!) so as i continue to say, it is STILL playing im their minds.
take care! sorry for another mammoth essay!
x jo