Babies Born June 2006 #2

Trust me on this one, I understand how you are feeling in regards to sleep - despite trying everything and 'failing' two weeks of sleep school, Marisa only started sleeping through the night after Elijah was born, then I had to deal with it all over again!! Add to that a husband working extremely late hours the whole time and me not getting on with my mum for a long time so no-one came to visit - needless to say, it has been extremely difficult and no surprise I ended up on meds. But I have had to surrender to it knowing that it's what I needed to do as it was up to me - I could sit there forever and be upset that no-one, not even my family was going to help me, or I had to get support myself and just get on with taking care of my baby as best I knew how.

I get highly emotional and irrational often because it's now been 4.5 years since I have slept through without a baby or child waking up. We do things through tired eyes and exhaustion which results in mummy not thinking straight. I was really sick with a chest infection the other week (and incredibly exhausted as I also had low iron) and paranoia had quickly set in! I couldn't sleep one night when I started thinking what if I had some disease or cancer *slaps head*.

We all feel very defensive about our choices as parents because they are choices we make based on a terrible support and education system, and often, when we hold our baby, it's often the first of babies we have ever held! We are in a place where we are as far away from our roots, which used to involve raising our families in a village, together, where we had lots of support, family members and exposure to all this. We were once much more confident, rested and less stressed as mothers. Now, we are isolated, exhausted and live the fast lifestyle without much of a break.

Did you read all of that article? It's know it's very long and I find that some stop reading it once they think the message is anti-bottlefeeding, but the end of the article is brilliant. It's telling us it is not the women who are failing, it is governments, it's the system, the manufacturers - they are setting us up for failure when it's already bloody hard enough! They need to do more, they need to spend more $$ of the very little $$ they spend on breastfeeding support and education because what's in place is not working.

All I am saying to you all is don't give up hope. Become informed and empowered. It's amazing what you can do and what change you can make. I was a completely nieve mother who was doing all the things that I now would not do - but look at me now - I look at myself and think, gees back then I would have thought this was a crazy hippy mother! But with a bit of reflection, lots of surrender and reading the right materials, it's amazing what you can do and how you feel about change. I think to myself I wish I knew lots of things sooner, I would have loved to have had a home waterbirth with my two, rather than any intervention at hospital. But I only recently found out now how great it can be, so I will wait until I am ready for the next. It's only by being informed that I have become confident about what I am doing and why, which is why I encourage everyone to do the same - no longer am I anxious or have any guilt over my choices in the past in regards to birth, sleep or feeding etc.

You have just had a bub - surrender to your baby and let everything else go. Make it all about you and baby, stuff the housework, stuff getting dressed most days LOL! You have made choices to do things a certain way, and that's happened and that's okay. It's important to think forward and not dwell on it or it certainly will get you down. There is so much to look forward to.

It's also important to consider that those hormones can play havoc too - if you are not coping, please see an understanding GP (not a d'head like one I had who said I was just tired, and we all get that!), or call PANDA or someone related to make sure you are okay, and not starting to feel depressed. You did what you thought was best for your baby at the time, with what resources you had. There is nothing, ever better than that - doing what we think is best. *hugs*

I did read the whole article Kelly and yes the ending is good. I do think I'm over reacting because I'm having a bad day.

I di have to admit that i did lots of research on BFing, went to classes etc. Had the midwife help me in the hospital to make sure attachment was spot on when I left and what not but Ryan was still hungry and I agree, there just aren't wet nurses these days. Which I think is what I needed.

Kelly, first of all I want to say is stop apologising for hi jacking our thread! You are welcome to do it. Second of all, I too felt like I was failing Patrick by FF him instead of BF him. During the day and night I still BF him more often then I FF him but that was only because he wasn't putting any weight on.I have slowed down on thr formula and given him more time at the breast,but I have found that he doesn't get 'full'. I don't want to take any medications, but is there any way to boost my supply up with the nutrients he needs to feel 'full'?

Many women do end up confused and upset with advice given from hospitals - I think it's one of the top complaints which I see women make, is the support afterwards and help with breastfeeding. It's when you get home and things start falling apart which is time to try somewhere else like the ABA or a lactation consultant - and one appropriately qualified to do so. Sometimes midwives can give the advice but without being certified. An IBCLC (international board certified lactation consultant) is the top qualification you can get (but not the be-all and end-all as it is very expensive to sit) - huge exam, massive books to study, huge hours required in actual experience etc - Pinky has recently done this exam but even MCHN's don't have such specific training - they need to be doing this training too. I have seen and heard of too many MCHN's suggesting formula too quick, which is why you have to keep seeking support (which can be frustrating). A qualified lactation consultant is a good port of call - she can come to you, she can see you and she will stay for hours at a time until you are satisfied - and you can call on her other times, so you get that continuity of care.

But for now, remind yourself that you ARE doing a great job, you DO love your baby and you DO only want whats best with the support you do have. The system is very woman un-friendly. We need more anrgy women to stand up and say that we've had enough and we deserve better. That's why I am a member of the maternity coalition.

Jess, how would you describe it when you say he doesn't feel 'full'? What does he do? There are times they will want to feed more and sometimes less, depening on growth spurts and other things. When Marisa went to the mother and baby unit, I now know the reason she stopped gaining weight was because she was so stressed with the environment and any attempt in rice cereal was thrown up (despite not doing it before). Even now when she is terribly upset she will vomit. She's a very anxious little bub and I wonder if the M&B unit had anything to do with it, as she wasn't the same since. But getting back on track, the MCHN suggested formula, which she wouldn't take anyway, but now she is a healthy thriving little thing. Without the small babies and without the big babies, the MCHN's wouldn't have flashy little charts to show us averages and what our baby should be doing! I had a small baby, she only ever wanted to breastfeed for a long time and weaned herself shortly after I fell pregnant with Elijah at 2.

Remember those charts were based on formula fed babies from the US in the 1970's. They tend to have more weight as there is more waste products from formula, it takes longer to digest and get around their system, so weight is retained more than a breastfed baby. Both of my babies have been breastfed for longer that I anticipated (on their part!) one putting on little weight (she is petite and little) and one lots (he is a solid boy but not fat), so I think thats an example of a bit of genetics playing out?

Kelly, When I say he doesn't feel 'full' I mean that I could feed him for 1 hr and a half straight, and he would still be hungry. I have only ever been able to feed my babies for 6 weeks- 3 months because my milk has never been strong enough to feed them for any longer. So even though I am feeding him on Breast milk, I top him up with a bottle. In the hospital he fed on both sides three or four times(I alternate breasts after I burp him!) and then he could still take 50 ml from the bottle.

Hi All,

Nixon & I are off to our first mums and bubs group today! should be good to meet some other mums and babies in the area! Nixon will b the eldest but should be more similar in size and everything else then if we had of started earlier.

Jaspen- sorry to hear things have been tough.i think sometimes we are dished out everything at once to see how we can handle it. If I can ask how come they cannot operate on your father? My dad is still recovering, he is well but might not ever have the same amount of energy as he used to. He still has to wear incontenance pads which you can imagine just frustrates the f##k out of him. Being positive is the best way to be, you have to belive that everything will be alright.

Enigma- hope your back pain is nothing serious. Ive had some back pain since on and off and i find bending over for very long hurts trying to straighten back up again, may be a co-incedance but i rekon its from the epi.

Oh Ali you reminded me i need to get myself to centre link. DH went after Nixon was born but she told him we were not eligable for anything.... i know we are not for Part A but i thought we would be for part B. anyway maybe i earnt overe the threshold in the financial yr but now we are in a new yr i need to get it sorted. From what Ive read so far it seems so confusing, did you find that?
Glad to hear Tori is a bit more settled

Bath- wow Niall is staking the weight on isnt he! thats great! 800g in 2 weeks!! i think thats taken Nixon about 8 weeks! glad the nurse was so nicetulip- yay on Lucas weight gain too! howq did the plaster mould go?

Jess, it's hard to say without seeing you in person (why I advocate for LC's so often!) because there could be something to suggest either side. It could be a problem evident that you need to see and either way I think it's great to get that reassurance. There are herbs you can use to boost your supply, but I would prefer you see a naturopath / herbalist for a dose, usually it's fenugreek and I think either nettle or milkthistle. Raspberry leaf is also great for supply, but I prefer to take it in tablet form which is more concentrated and easier to swallow!!! What every way suits you. I have a few other ideas and suggestions but I am not 100% so I would perfer not to post without checking first, but I know for me, I would worry about supply too, and I am so glad I saw a LC as it made me relax alot more which in turn probably also helped my supply! If you want some names of some good LC's let me know.

Good morning :) whoa... we had some early birds in here today!

CeeCee! Wonderful to see you back! Sorry to hear you had such a long and traumatic labour but it sounds like you're bonding beautifully with little Alexandra... am looking forward to seeing her piccy :)

Breastfeeding: I've been really fortunate to have never had any significant problems but I agree with Kelly when she says that hospital staff can really stuff you around :( I fed Verity successfully for 9 months without so much as a sore nipple... Wade also fed well straight after birth but during my stay in hospital the staff basically harrassed me needing to know exact times (feeding duration and hours between feeds etc)... being too fuzzy headed to remember I told them estimations which never seemed to please them... either I was feeding too frequently or letting him sleep too long in between... in my usual arrogant manner I thought to myself "oh stuff them, he's a content little guy, he's getting enough" (based also on the fact that he was making heaps of dirty/wet nappies and that we were both getting enough sleep in between) but they made me leave my room and sit in a room for an hour just so they could monitor my technique! And to make sure i was feeding him for long enough (he was an 'efficient' feeder and just getting what he wanted in a shorter time than usual). They also got really nitty-gritty about attachment (eg making sure his lower arm was wrapped around my body instead of being tucked up... ok, this is a slightly better position but not absolutely necessary!) Anyhow if I hadn't been a second-timer they really would have affected my confidence... It wasn't as if i had asked for help because i was in pain (the achey sensations I described in a previous post came later when he was several months old... Wade's sucking strength wasn't too strong when he was a newborn). Another thing was different midwives had slightly different advice anyhow... some believed in demand feeding, others strongly suggested i wake him for feeds (this goes against my instincts). Anyhow, Niall fed well soon after birth once again and I've been doing just as I have always done, no sore nipples, and thankfully impressive weight gain so I'm being left alone!!! (he weighs 4842gms now enigma) So I agree with Kelly: if you have problems contact the experts, don't just rely on the advice of midwives and MCHNs because from my experience theirs have been contradictory and confusing and against my instincts... and worst of all it was given in a authoritarian manner that I felt lacked compassion and failed to acknowledge my previous breastfeeding success and (with Wade) the fact that he was thriving! I fed infront of the MCHN yesterday, kinda realising that it wasn't a textbook attachment (I was focussed on Wade beside me who was needing attention too) but gratefully she didn't say anything... and after weighing Niall and commenting on such a good result how could she? I think the other Junies like Dee (who BF whilst shopping and pushing a trolly) would understand that you don't have to be perfectly positioned every time... if baby is getting the milk, it doesn't hurt and your nipples are in good shape then it's probably good enough) I do however acknowledge the benefits of knowing the optimal position and I do feed according to that a lot of the time :) Going to read that BB article now...

Kelly,
thank you so much for your advice. I have been to four b/f classes, seen two lactation consultants (at Hospital) and they both believe that I will 'make' it, I just have to keep trying (with her tounge down)... Last night I used teh sheld and within 30 seconds the whole thing filled with blood, so I was trying to force her to drink my blood, it was horrible...but I tried the other nipple and no blood, but both nipples look like tiger eyes, a big scabby cut right down the middle of both of them.. my nipples look like they are looking at you.. (sorry trying to make light of the situation)...I will post in B/F to see if anyone knows of a consultant in Sydney .

A successful feed from both nipples this morning - no blood, but you could see the 'ridge' she causes on my nipples once she stops sucking, so definately an attachment issue...

I will make it, I'm determine too... (not that formular is bad, I just don't want the hassel of making formular, I like the fast food concept of breast milk)...

Enigma, my best friend has formular fed both her girls from day dot, and they are healthy and beautiful, the first one, is the smartest girl in her class (and the tallest).. so this determination to b/f is just a personal stuggle, don't feel bad honey, you have your own stuggles I'm sure!

if i hear " breastmilk is BEST for baby " one more time im going to go insane.
its not an attack on you Kelly , it just seems that i cant even turn to my baby buddies thread without hearing it or getting a link to an article about it
yes i do realize breastfeeding is important - to those who it suits.
but formula fed babies are just as healthy , have similar feeding issues ( apart from the obvious like latching on ) and as Candy mentioned - formula fed babies seem to settle & sleep for longer - but thats not the reason we formula feed !
im not going to comment on this subject anymore , its in my face enough as it is... i wish those who are breastfeeding well - but im also very pleased with my decision not to.

no one take this to heart , im just frustrated .

phew - nice to get that one off my chest

ETA - thank you CeeCee :)

Doh i seemed to have missed a whole page of post when i posted.
CeeCee- glad to hear from you!! hope you are recovering well from a very lengthy labour, cant wait to c pics of Alexandra.

Breast feeding- I have to go back & read those articles that you posted Kelly. But the MCHN frustrates me. I have flat nipples and therefore Nixon doesn't have anything to latch onto. i found the only way was to use a nipple shield. Now every time i go to get him checked i get pounded about using the nipple sheild. She tells me that he is not getting the skin to skin contact with the sheild and getting to used to the plastic feeling because he also gets EBM bottle soemtimes. I keep trying without it but it just doesn't work. now she wants me to go back next week to weigh him cause he hasnt been puttin on much and wants me to feed him there and not using the sheild. but i am happy using it.
She also told me to try topping him up with he spews so much. Eg this feed started @ 10.15 he went for 45mins both sides coming up for burps in between which he had no problem with. 5min after the feed was finished he starts chucking, just oozing out of him 5-6 big spews, one formed a puddle in his neck, one went over my should and splatted on the floor and chair and finding it hard to find a dry patch on his spew cloth! so ive just put him back on for a top up but i cant stand the fact that a feed can take an hr and a half each time its too physically draining....

Hey Nic, I'm no expert, but from my experience the duration of feeds gets shorter as they grow older and their sucking muscles strengthen... it won't take an hour per feed for ever. I reckon your MCHN should ease up a bit too :( She should stop aiming for a textbook situation, sense that you are feeling a little overwhelmed, congratulate you for perservering, assure you that if the shields are working then that's great and recognise that your emotional state of mind regarding feeding is just as important as Nixon's "skin to skin" contact! Once again this is an example of health professionals making a woman feel like she is a baby factory *grrrr* Remember you can see any MCHN in your area... not just the one closest to you... i "should" be going to the one in East Ivanhoe (but she's hopeless) so i'm travelling a little farther to the nice one in Rosanna... like someone said yesterday: MCHNs play a big part in the morale of mothers and it's important to be seeing one that is supportive.

ETA: ask the other mums at your new group who they are seeing and how they feel... that's how I discovered the Rosanna
MCHN was a good one ;)

enigma, completely understand, and it wasn't so much the bottlefeeding thing I meant to direct at, but rather putting solids in a bottle or feeding solids. I know not all of those who do bottlefeed do it to make baby sleep through, but I do know it's a common reason it is done. Also you have to remember that while babies do have some unsettled periods now, they will also have times where they will sleep well, but no matter what they are fed, they will have unsettled periods too! Often around 4 months and 8 months is very common - when someone posts about sleep issues it's the first thing I look at - their baby ticker ;) There is nothing you can do about these, they are developmental stages and are very trying!

Especially while they are so young, a baby's gut is very immature and there are lots of risks associated with introducing solids at a young age and more health conditions are being linked to it all the time, one of the latest studies indicates diabetes as well as the allergies, obesity, choking risk etc.

I never post with the intention to upset anyone or make anyone feel bad about their choice of feeding / birth etc, but I just feel uneasy when things are posted on my forums that can go in a direction that isn't ideal - e.g. one person might post and say for example, 'hey I heard that if feed your baby formula they will sleep more!' then you have lots of sleep deprived women all changing to formula, then they are disappointed whent their milk dries up and at those developmental stages, it no longer works.

I just want to let everyone know that there is no quick, long term fix, often babies will sleep more at a younger age, like I say up to around 4 months, then they have stages where they sleep less and you want to throw them out the window LOL :)

I also like to make sure everyone has access to (most importantly) facts, then the con's as well as the pro's - it has been mentioned that it's great baby is sleeping more. It's okay for people to promote what they see as the benefits of bottlefeeding (for reasons of sleep, not necesity) but when it's breastfeeding you are promoting it's very emotive. I often think about how that can change. I am simply saying, yes, baby might sleep more, but here are the negatives to this. Simply a balanced view. I am not trying to upset anyone and I don't think I have directed anything at anyone or said anything derogatory about bottlefeeding. I guess when you are passionate about something and have access to information that is 'shocking' or not readily accessible you just want to be able to help others where you can by sharing this. However if a mum decides to bottlefeed for whatever reason, then that is her decision to do that and I will not argue with her. I am not anti- anything, but pro-mother / pro-woman. And as women and mothers, we deserve more support and better access to information than we currently get. I think many professionals are responsible for what has happened too.

There are MCHN nurses who are also qualified lactation consultants, but not always close to you - the other nurses should know who the qualified LC are and be able to refer you to them, or give you their number.
I have had some conflicting advice, and going with what feels best for me and Oscar. I've had advice to express first (either 20-30mls or for 10 mins, separate nurses!), but I don't do that anymore - if I have a let down before I attach him then I just let it leak onto a towel, THEN attach him, but without concertedly expressing. I am trying to avoid expressing from the sorest side and just keep practising on that side. Oscar takes longer to feed when I have to keep detaching him when he starts to 'pinch', but there are times when it just 'works' and I have some hope to go on! Sometimes he takes less time, the boob feels nice and soft so I get him onto the other side for a bit - he doesn't feed much on it, but it makes him sleepy enough to put down.
I realise that a good sleep is not equivalent to an adult good sleep, so I am happy with a 3 and a half hour sleep before a wake again! Unfortunately, DP seems to think that I should just get up in the morning and have a sleep later in the day...honestly, he says it with such conviction that at the time I feel like I'm a real slacker, but when I eventually get up at about midday (and Oscar has stayed asleep all that time!) I feel heaps better and I don't care that my day doesn't run to a 'normal' person's schedule.
Anyway, I wouldn't consider FF just to get more sleep or to settle Oscar (he rarely needs extended settling, it's usually wind and then he'll drop off after a burp, hiccups or a long fart!), because I feel it's a cheat. It takes longer to digest, that doesn't mean to me that it's better - in fact, that just tells me it doesn't seem right for Oscar. To give my boobs a break I'll go as far as expressing and cup feeding, but I'm not going to mess with Oscar's instinctive sleep patterns to give myself a 'better' sleep. Honestly, no matter when or how often I wake up, when I look at his cutie pie face, I just melt and know I'm doing right by him.
I'm not going to be apologetic and say 'no offence to FF mothers' cos I don't owe anything to anyone else but Oscar. I know that my booby milk is the best thing for him and that nothing else is good enough for him. And that's confirmed by lab tests! No formula could ever replicate the ingredients of breast milk and whilst I've got it I'm going to use it.
I'm writing this to encourage any of us who are breastfeeding who might need the encouragement, not to make FF mothers feel like crap, cos it's not directed at FF mothers!
I'm really lucky that the birth centre I went to is really big on BFing and gives good solid reasoning for 'persisting' with it. They really discourage complimentary feeding and advocate exclusive BFing. It's a "Baby Friendly" accredited hospital and BC, so that may have something to do with it.
If I still haven't got the attachment thing by the latter end of this week, I think I'll go see the LC up the mountain.
Thanks for your posts, Kelly, I feel like I'm still on track with this BFing caper and you confirmed my perspective :)
To anyone who's been offended by what I have written, that's not my intention. I probably offended some people in the Belly Buddies threads with my insistence on a natural birth, spurning the use of drugs and modern interventions, so I can accept that I'll just rub people the wrong way with my sticking to methods that got the human race this far before medicalisation and formula. There are people who do better with medical intervention and formula, but I have no reason to resort to these, being that everything else is all well with me.
I guess this is my 'vent'. I'm not being a martyr by 'persisting' with BFing, I'm just doing what squillions of other women are able to do, so why should I give up? I'm glad I keep hearing the stories from women who assure me that this part is short-lived and it gets better. I've always been pretty good with delayed gratification, so I can go through this part to reap further rewards down the track :)
Shower beckons...better get in quick before Oscar wakes for another feed - I can leak in the shower under the hot water and be less full and awkard for him!
Bathsheba - I'll remember that about non-textbook attachment :) As long as it's not painful...I'll stick that mental note at the front of my brain!

IK: I hope i haven't given you poor advice regarding attachment! I repeat: I'm no expert! Just because it's something I have been lucky enough to "get away with" doesn't mean that it's right for everyone. Like Nic has explained: nipples come in all shapes and sizes (mine have a good "teat" part to latch onto) so I have probably been able to get away with a poorer technique than most. What I meant to emphasise was to beware the Perfectionist Untrained Advisor like MCHNs/Midwives who haven't done specialised lactation training. They can often make a situation worse (I think) by insisting that a women feed text-book style every second of feeding when, in real life, women have issues like tending to other children, cooking a meal, shopping and sleeping that they need to do at the same time as BFing. Did the midwife at the hospital I was at with Wade help me BF whilst I was lying down in bed with him beside me? No! I had to be sitting correctly in an appropriate arm chair, with an appropriate cushion, etc etc etc.... in reality women can't give every feed this way... some need to feed in bed and that's ok but the baby's position is totally different... that's why my rule of thumb is the "no pain" one. The baby's mouth still has to be nice and wide etc but in terms of positioning the advice really should be more flexible. Anyhow, as I said, I just wanted to point out that from my experience a lot of health professionals will tend to treat the nursing woman's body as a milking machine to be "fixed" rather than a mum to be supported... that's what i don't want to see happening to my June Buddies! :)

Just a quick hello to everyone today. Slept in til 11am today (much needed sleep) and now have heaps to do.
Jess - hope things all work out for you.
Jaspen - thinking of you, sounds like you have a tough few weeks ahead of you still, hang in there and try to take good care of yourself.

Just want to say that I think part of what enigma is saying is what I am feeling. we see pro booby everywhere, we know it ourselves, but in all this no-one really says "and if you tried it and it didn't work, it's ok you did your best." I tried to BF ryan. we persisted for over a week and he was clearly hungry even after draining both sides. because he would take both sides AND 60ml of formula. I am very much pro-woman and pro-mums. I think bfing is great and I do blame society for it now being a learned skill. but I am also not so silly as to try and persist when it wasn't best for me or ryan. I cried for ages when I realised formula was better for him. i didn't make the choice for me because I wanted more sleep. I made the choice for ryan because he was hungry.

and kel, thanks for posting here, hijack away. I'm sure when you made the post you knew if nothing else, discussion would follow!!!

It's funny, when I had issues with Elijah, I rang the LC (on Pinky's advice) and one of the first things I said to the LC was, 'I am really worried about my supply, I think it's really low.' She said, 'What is it with you new mums and supply?!' LOL!

Some of us will have supply problems, but make sure you don't self diagnose it. Get a second opinion from an LC and make sure you have have that when you make changes - if you have to change to formula at least you will be at peace with it, because you knew you tried your best and you sought that help from a good source. The link I posted in the breastfeeding forum for the LC in Sydney contains a reference to LC's as part of the national association, so they need to obide by a code of ethics, and most of them are IBCLC.

I know we all see 'breast is best' stuff posted around the place, but in the discussion thread when this article was initially posted (in infant led feeding) the ABA was contacted about it and made some interesting comments, about their change in approach to the topic. It's like anything though, the messages have been so far ingrained and it's hard to break sayings and habits. Unfortunately though, I think lots of women who bottlefeed for health reasons have the hardest time dealing with it (as opposed to those who WANT to bottlefeed regardless) and they need support to de-brief and get answers. You can only do this with a professional and not other women on a website. So this is why I think it is so raw to deal with it here. There are lots of undealt with feelings, thoughts and emotions and we aren't qualified to deal with those. That's why there are still older women today with issues with their births and why as soon as you are pregnant or have a new baby, they are first to share their horror stories or share their 2c worth because they haven't had the opportunity to deal with it. Unfortunately #2 - while it sucks having it in your face, it is important that mums know that the best form of nutrients and food supply for babies is breastmilk, but perhaps instead of spending money on campaigns saying just that, they need to approach it a little differently. The way formula is marketed these days, some women do think that formula can be superior with all those vitamins and minerals in it, when they don't realise how rich breastmilk is already, plus the live stuff in it too, like white blood cells, antibodies etc. So It's a tough one. All I guess I can say is that if you have gone to formula and are having difficulty with how you feel, perhaps you could see someone who does post-natal de-briefing - some LC's do this, I know my teacher does...

Dont' worry, Bathsheba, I'm just taking what you said and storing it in case I happen to get at attachment that isn't painful but isn't the 'baby wrapped close around your body, supporting hand in the small of the back' scenario. I haven't even got to the point where the 'textbook' position is pinch-free for the whole feed. Sometimes it is painful, so I detach immediately, other times it's a little uncomfy so I let it go until it gets too pinchy. I hate doing that, but I also hate making Oscar hang out for an extra half hour to get a full feed! I know, it's a bit of a cop out, but it's the guilt thing. HOWEVER, I have made an extra appointment with the MHC nurse for Friday to continue the dialogue about whether I should see the LC in Monbluk or go to the breastfeeding clinic in Healesville. He's still flattening my nipple and the vasospasm blurs my sense of whether the pain after a feed is the blood constriction or a direct result of the poor attachment. I'll sort this one out, dammit! I KNOW it gets better, but I really want to avoid wishing away this time for the 'better' time, cos he'll only be this little once! There is no reason this BFing caper can't work for me, physically or mentally.
I agree with Kelly, FF or BF is quite emotive because people get very defensive about their position. It's a bit like co-sleeping - I am not hiding that we co-sleep to people I talk to and I sort of defy them to offer their 2 cents worth about it...so far, no takers! You do what you have to do and the only person you should be answerable to is yourself. If you are still conflicted, for goodness sake, find someone to talk to about it, someone qualified like a counsellor (a counsellor with some kind of certificate, cos anyone can legally be a counsellor) or psychologist. You don't need to reconcile your actions with other people, but you should be able to within yourself. If it's upsetting still, seek help!
Well, us Junies never really did shy away from contentious topics. I do remember us getting into some meaty topics during pregnancy! We can deal with this one :)

FYI some new (from today even) pics of Ryan on my site.

Took Tori to the MCHN today and she has put on another 300gm in a week, so things are going well here.

On the bf/ ff issue, all I wanted to say is that life is about choices that we make based on what is best for us and for our families. No one should feel bad about about choices they make, you should feel empowered that you are capable of being able to make those choices, and satisfied that your main aim in life is making sure your child is the happiest it can be. I am sure as our babies grow up they are not going to remember whether they were bottle or breast fed, and they are probably not even going to care. All they are going to remember is that you LOVED them with every ounce of yourself, and spent many agonising hours making decisions to ensure that they had the best start to life.
So lets put away the big sticks and stop beating ourselves up about the decisions we are making, and just remember that every single thing we have done since we have found out that we were pregnant has been done out of love for the beautiful little babies that we have bought into this world!

Hi everyone,

Dee where abouts is Treasure Island? If you want we could arrange to meet up in that week if you want? just let me know.

Well school was back in today so I got to wear my baby sling which I haven't worn since DS1 as the other two boys just didn't like it. Cody really enjoyed it as he fell asleep on the way to school this morning and when I put him in it this arvo he was sleeping and he stayed asleep. I'm so happy about this, so I'll be wearing him alot more. Better go and do a bit of house work.

hugs xoxo

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if i hear " breastmilk is BEST for baby " one more time im going to go insane.
its not an attack on you Kelly , it just seems that i cant even turn to my baby buddies thread without hearing it or getting a link to an article about it
yes i do realize breastfeeding is important - to those who it suits.
but formula fed babies are just as healthy , have similar feeding issues ( apart from the obvious like latching on ) and as Candy mentioned - formula fed babies seem to settle & sleep for longer - but thats not the reason we formula feed !
im not going to comment on this subject anymore , its in my face enough as it is... i wish those who are breastfeeding well - but im also very pleased with my decision not to.

no one take this to heart , im just frustrated .

phew - nice to get that one off my chest

ETA - thank you CeeCee :)

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No matter how you feed your child enigma, we support you 100%, and everyone else who exclusively Formula feeds their child.

The internet is open to a million interpretations and I hope no-one thought I was saying bottlefeeding is bad! Because that's not what I meant. All I wanted to say was that if you are struggling, please don't hesitate to ask for help from a higher source and please don't feel bad doing so. That's it. If you want to discuss breastfeeding issues further, please post in the feeding forums. I haven't been directing this at those who choose to bottlefeed but those having problems and often it's so easy to give up if support seems hard to find. It's much easier than we might think. All of you will be supported no matter what, that's a given on BB.

Noone was thinking that Kelly.

Kelly could you PM me that list of LC please hun.Thanks. I would like to keep BF but already I am starting to feel my supply is diminishing.

god , now i feel a bit stupid about my little outbreak - not only am i having them at home , im having them online now :(
Thanks for understanding everyone , i wasnt trying to be rude - just stating my opinion...

hey jess, my supply was disappearing (was expressing to take milk to the hospital every day) and after trying everything i was advised to do, i was prescribed domperidone (otherwise known as motillium or maxalon) for my supply. take 2 tablets 3x a day, and im feeding as well as expressing up to 200mls extra a day. Its brilliant!! I was told about it by some of the girls in here :)

I had heard about that drug, but as some of the girls already know, I don't like medications. Thanks for thinking of me though simone

Australian Lactation Consultants Association (locate a LC)
Register of IBCLC's (International Board Certified Lactation Consultants)

Hey Candy I see that little Ryan is one month old today! Happy one month Little Rigger!!
Ali- You summed it up beutifully!

well mothers group went well, there was 9 & 1 didnt make it. I felt a bit jelous that the girl i knew whos baby was born 3 weeks early on the same day as Nixon is now bigger then him. I know thats silly to be jelous but i couldnt help but feel a bit. she was only 4pound and such a tiny bub when i saw here at 5weeks. Now she has gone past Nixon i feel everyone's baby is...ahhh its just so frustrating i know when he is big I'll just want him to be small again but i just want him to start packing some weight on so he can get bigger....The constant spewing is just getting to me mainly... Anyway he has been on Zantec for a week they say it can take up to 2 weeks to start working so i'll keep on pushing along.

Nickers, dont be sorry about how you feel, although it may look like Nixon is tiny now, He'll stop being sick once his premmie gut matures, and his reflux settles, and he'll get huge (and yes, you will wish for him to be little again!!) When i saw him saturday night, he looked huge to me!! You're doing a great job, just sit back and relax :) Hope everything settles down a bit soon... Hope the meds kick in sooner rather than later!! :pray: for you two...

Wow what a "controversial" topic the breastfeeding v bottle feeding debate is! Personally I think what works for one person might not work for another, so do what is right for you and your baby. I have been lucky enough to have been able to breastfeed both Gabriella and Alex (not without some problems mind you with him) but I still am willing to supplement with formula. Hey he gets the best of both worlds!!

Have had a horror of a morning with Alex, he just wouldn't stop crying for almost 4 hours non stop. He is calm now thank goodness and has been asleep for over 3 hours. All that crying must have tired him out.

hi all,
sorry about the B/F issue thingy, lets move forward and I'll post in the correct area...Hugs and thanks to Kelly and Enigma and everyone else...

first day home today, how nice - we even managed a nice lunch in the sunny courtyard so I actually feel like a person again!

MIL is here, she is OK, I'm sure she means well - she is just VERY old fashion and conservative and likes to give advise - and I HATE to hear advice from anyone who is NOT an expert... and not up with the times! Only a week - I'll get through it! Funny as I remember when all your MIL's were with you all...now it is my turn!

Nic - what is Zantec? An anti-vomit medication? OH I can't wait to go to mothers group and start doing all the fun things with my beautiful baby...

right now I'm just happy to stay home and near the loo (yes, should have done more pelvic floors exercises - darn!).. think I need to work on it, but stiches hurt when I try so maybe a few more days?

Well, should go, going to ask DH to see if he can post a pick on my signature, for soem silly reason I can't figure it out.

chat soon - luv CC

CeeCee its so nice to have you back .. ive been meaning to ask - how are Alexandras kidneys ??

Hi Everyone, looks like some chatting got done today.
Amanda that would be fantastic, Treasure Island resort is right across the road from Harbour Town Shopping centre, Labrador . It's a Big 4, they have a fantastic website if you wanted to check it out. We book in on the 10th Dec and out on the 17th. It's still six months away but I'm already excited about it.

On the Feeding issue: With my first baby I only bf for 6 weeks I felt like such a failure, but I had no family supportand a baby who screamed all day, but slept all night, it felt like that I had no milk left by afternoon, I fed constantly, during the day, I was miserable, my baby was miserable. My second baby I managed four months and basically just let it go by five months and with DD3 I was determined to get it righta and I did I fed her for 18 months and DD4 fed for 10 months but was drawing blood biting me so she lost it. With DS he gave me some nasty little blood blister on both nipples due to him not opening his mouth and attaching properly but I sorted him out very quickly, lol. I'm no expert either, but I'm now a bit of an old hand at it. Breastfeeding is a learned skill and well worth perservering those first couple of weeks. I can now easily breasfeed and menouver trollies and children, lol. Kelly is right LC are a terrific idea if you have access to one and are having trouble seek one out. They can really help you and sort out any problems you may have.
But my babies were all BF and they have all slept through the night. 8 hours being the average. I have Co slept with all of them and rarely have a broken nights sleep as all sleep in their own beds all night, except miss 3 who still likes to come for a cuddle every now and then (usually after a toilet break).

I think what everyone has to remember is not to judge your child against anyone elses because all babies are different, they don't come with manuals or remote controls, lol. And you have to do what you think is best. You are all doing a wonderful job. You all have a wealth of support and knowledge in this forum. And please don't take well meaning advice from people who have been there as an insult to what you are doing as I'm sure it's not meant like that. As Dr Phil says you can either own it or throw it away it is your choice.

Welcome back Cee Cee, congratulations babe, can't wait to read your birth story.

Jess So sory about you and DH, good luck with everything.

Love the photos Candy. He's so gorgeous. I have also put some new ones up if anyone wants to look

Enigma - her last scan was 9mm, and the Hospital 'line' for "server" is 10mm - so she is not considered a serious risk.. they will do another scan in 2 weeks and hopefully it will be less... I remember the first time I heard the news that she was not perfect and it seemed to matter so much then, now it does not matter, nothing matters but my love for her.:crying: oh no, here come the water works! ummmm... (good tears)...

Hi Everyone,

Well I feel as though the whole issue that kelly was trying to get at was because of my comment on how I was putting farex in jacks bottle. Well sorry but I dont believe that I am doing the wrong thing. I guess that you dont agree Kelly and your entitled to your own opinion. I might not be a midwife or doctor or LC but I am a mother and I know when my son is not settling well at night. Its only 1 teaspoon, not a can of roast beef and veges. I'll keep things like that to myself in future....

On a much brighter note, my darling rowen is home tonight!!!! Yay! I cant wait and neither can the kiddies!

Welcome back CeeCee glad to hear all is well!!

Nic, I hope the Zantec works for Nixon. It really helped my reflux when pregnant so fingers crossed for him...

Jess, make sure you are eating well, and drinking loads of water. This definately helps milk production. Also try eating nuts. Esp almonds as they are rich in protein. Also cheese and milk are known to help. I had a time when I couldnt keep up with the twins demands but I did a bit of research and changed my diet and bingo!!!! there was my milk again! Also stress is a number 1 no no! So try to relax, easier said than done for you I know.

Enigma, dont worry, Rowen is copping it when he is home too. One minute I am happy then I'm yelling at him! It is definately hormones cos I know I am doing it but just cant seem to stop!

I have started riding again. I rode twice last week and again this week. I feel good and my horse is definately glad I'm back in action. Jack and Charlee have both met him and he loves them. Tries to lick them!!! They sleep soundly in the pram in the stables for me too! Good babies!

Go ahead and have a weep, Cee Cee :) You were put through the wringer with all these diagnoses, so you deserve to just feel all that love for her and wallow in it!
BTW, I have started to scour the breastfeeding and comfort feeding threads to talk BFing, cos there does seem to be a bit of angst in this thread from time to time and it's probably better to find a thread where you don't feel you have to hold back for fear of causing offence or uncovering someone else's baggage about feeding. By the same token, there is the FF thread, for those taking that road! Kelly's right, we should probably move these discussions to a more topic-friendly environment, but I do find that my feeding issues are what I want to discuss ATM and we've always shared our issues amongst us Junies:(
Hee, hee, Heaven - your co-sleeping kind of blows the theory out of the water that it 'interferes' with your sex life! I read a good response to someone offering this comment when they find out about the co-sleeping - "do you only have sex in bed at night?". I read that in the ABA magazine that just went out and had a good laugh.
I read somewhere that electrolyte drinks can boost breast milk supply - did I read that here, or in another forum? I've bought myself a tub of Powerade, mainly cos I'm finding I'm barely drinking any water during the day (apart from the water in my fruit juice and glass of metamucil!), so I shall see what it does to my supply...
Um, does anyone know (in advance of my MHCN appt on Friday) if diet affects baby's poo and its irritability factor on baby's bum skin? Oscar's just starting to get a bit of nappy rash and his poo's are still runny (one nurse said cos he's getting too much foremilk, but I'm loathe to express it all away). I know I haven't been eating nearly enough due to a strangely suppressed appetite, so I hope that's not it or I'll feel terrible! I resorted to a disposable nappy last night and his bum was clearer when I changed it again. I'm also putting away the Sudocrem for a bit and using plain old lanolin out of a tube. I'll see how I go.
Oscar's sleeping again, so I'll go to the loo and fold some nappies before getting some steak cooked and chips oven cooked!

I was worried you would feel attacked by this and it wasn't the idea. I spoke to Pinky who is an ex-nurse and IBCLC (a stringent medical exam involved) and she too is concerned about bubs liver having to process food products at such a young age. I am not trying to tell anyone off, but please be wary of the real risks of this. I am only concerned for you all - I didn't just start this site cos I had nothing better to do, but because I want to change the way things are - not mum's choices, but the information she has access to. I would hate for people to think of BB as a place of mis-information and medical-incorrectness (is that a word LOL). *hugs*