Babies Born June 2006 #2

if i hear " breastmilk is BEST for baby " one more time im going to go insane.
its not an attack on you Kelly , it just seems that i cant even turn to my baby buddies thread without hearing it or getting a link to an article about it
yes i do realize breastfeeding is important - to those who it suits.
but formula fed babies are just as healthy , have similar feeding issues ( apart from the obvious like latching on ) and as Candy mentioned - formula fed babies seem to settle & sleep for longer - but thats not the reason we formula feed !
im not going to comment on this subject anymore , its in my face enough as it is... i wish those who are breastfeeding well - but im also very pleased with my decision not to.

no one take this to heart , im just frustrated .

phew - nice to get that one off my chest

ETA - thank you CeeCee :)

Doh i seemed to have missed a whole page of post when i posted.
CeeCee- glad to hear from you!! hope you are recovering well from a very lengthy labour, cant wait to c pics of Alexandra.

Breast feeding- I have to go back & read those articles that you posted Kelly. But the MCHN frustrates me. I have flat nipples and therefore Nixon doesn't have anything to latch onto. i found the only way was to use a nipple shield. Now every time i go to get him checked i get pounded about using the nipple sheild. She tells me that he is not getting the skin to skin contact with the sheild and getting to used to the plastic feeling because he also gets EBM bottle soemtimes. I keep trying without it but it just doesn't work. now she wants me to go back next week to weigh him cause he hasnt been puttin on much and wants me to feed him there and not using the sheild. but i am happy using it.
She also told me to try topping him up with he spews so much. Eg this feed started @ 10.15 he went for 45mins both sides coming up for burps in between which he had no problem with. 5min after the feed was finished he starts chucking, just oozing out of him 5-6 big spews, one formed a puddle in his neck, one went over my should and splatted on the floor and chair and finding it hard to find a dry patch on his spew cloth! so ive just put him back on for a top up but i cant stand the fact that a feed can take an hr and a half each time its too physically draining....

Hey Nic, I'm no expert, but from my experience the duration of feeds gets shorter as they grow older and their sucking muscles strengthen... it won't take an hour per feed for ever. I reckon your MCHN should ease up a bit too :( She should stop aiming for a textbook situation, sense that you are feeling a little overwhelmed, congratulate you for perservering, assure you that if the shields are working then that's great and recognise that your emotional state of mind regarding feeding is just as important as Nixon's "skin to skin" contact! Once again this is an example of health professionals making a woman feel like she is a baby factory *grrrr* Remember you can see any MCHN in your area... not just the one closest to you... i "should" be going to the one in East Ivanhoe (but she's hopeless) so i'm travelling a little farther to the nice one in Rosanna... like someone said yesterday: MCHNs play a big part in the morale of mothers and it's important to be seeing one that is supportive.

ETA: ask the other mums at your new group who they are seeing and how they feel... that's how I discovered the Rosanna
MCHN was a good one ;)

enigma, completely understand, and it wasn't so much the bottlefeeding thing I meant to direct at, but rather putting solids in a bottle or feeding solids. I know not all of those who do bottlefeed do it to make baby sleep through, but I do know it's a common reason it is done. Also you have to remember that while babies do have some unsettled periods now, they will also have times where they will sleep well, but no matter what they are fed, they will have unsettled periods too! Often around 4 months and 8 months is very common - when someone posts about sleep issues it's the first thing I look at - their baby ticker ;) There is nothing you can do about these, they are developmental stages and are very trying!

Especially while they are so young, a baby's gut is very immature and there are lots of risks associated with introducing solids at a young age and more health conditions are being linked to it all the time, one of the latest studies indicates diabetes as well as the allergies, obesity, choking risk etc.

I never post with the intention to upset anyone or make anyone feel bad about their choice of feeding / birth etc, but I just feel uneasy when things are posted on my forums that can go in a direction that isn't ideal - e.g. one person might post and say for example, 'hey I heard that if feed your baby formula they will sleep more!' then you have lots of sleep deprived women all changing to formula, then they are disappointed whent their milk dries up and at those developmental stages, it no longer works.

I just want to let everyone know that there is no quick, long term fix, often babies will sleep more at a younger age, like I say up to around 4 months, then they have stages where they sleep less and you want to throw them out the window LOL :)

I also like to make sure everyone has access to (most importantly) facts, then the con's as well as the pro's - it has been mentioned that it's great baby is sleeping more. It's okay for people to promote what they see as the benefits of bottlefeeding (for reasons of sleep, not necesity) but when it's breastfeeding you are promoting it's very emotive. I often think about how that can change. I am simply saying, yes, baby might sleep more, but here are the negatives to this. Simply a balanced view. I am not trying to upset anyone and I don't think I have directed anything at anyone or said anything derogatory about bottlefeeding. I guess when you are passionate about something and have access to information that is 'shocking' or not readily accessible you just want to be able to help others where you can by sharing this. However if a mum decides to bottlefeed for whatever reason, then that is her decision to do that and I will not argue with her. I am not anti- anything, but pro-mother / pro-woman. And as women and mothers, we deserve more support and better access to information than we currently get. I think many professionals are responsible for what has happened too.

There are MCHN nurses who are also qualified lactation consultants, but not always close to you - the other nurses should know who the qualified LC are and be able to refer you to them, or give you their number.
I have had some conflicting advice, and going with what feels best for me and Oscar. I've had advice to express first (either 20-30mls or for 10 mins, separate nurses!), but I don't do that anymore - if I have a let down before I attach him then I just let it leak onto a towel, THEN attach him, but without concertedly expressing. I am trying to avoid expressing from the sorest side and just keep practising on that side. Oscar takes longer to feed when I have to keep detaching him when he starts to 'pinch', but there are times when it just 'works' and I have some hope to go on! Sometimes he takes less time, the boob feels nice and soft so I get him onto the other side for a bit - he doesn't feed much on it, but it makes him sleepy enough to put down.
I realise that a good sleep is not equivalent to an adult good sleep, so I am happy with a 3 and a half hour sleep before a wake again! Unfortunately, DP seems to think that I should just get up in the morning and have a sleep later in the day...honestly, he says it with such conviction that at the time I feel like I'm a real slacker, but when I eventually get up at about midday (and Oscar has stayed asleep all that time!) I feel heaps better and I don't care that my day doesn't run to a 'normal' person's schedule.
Anyway, I wouldn't consider FF just to get more sleep or to settle Oscar (he rarely needs extended settling, it's usually wind and then he'll drop off after a burp, hiccups or a long fart!), because I feel it's a cheat. It takes longer to digest, that doesn't mean to me that it's better - in fact, that just tells me it doesn't seem right for Oscar. To give my boobs a break I'll go as far as expressing and cup feeding, but I'm not going to mess with Oscar's instinctive sleep patterns to give myself a 'better' sleep. Honestly, no matter when or how often I wake up, when I look at his cutie pie face, I just melt and know I'm doing right by him.
I'm not going to be apologetic and say 'no offence to FF mothers' cos I don't owe anything to anyone else but Oscar. I know that my booby milk is the best thing for him and that nothing else is good enough for him. And that's confirmed by lab tests! No formula could ever replicate the ingredients of breast milk and whilst I've got it I'm going to use it.
I'm writing this to encourage any of us who are breastfeeding who might need the encouragement, not to make FF mothers feel like crap, cos it's not directed at FF mothers!
I'm really lucky that the birth centre I went to is really big on BFing and gives good solid reasoning for 'persisting' with it. They really discourage complimentary feeding and advocate exclusive BFing. It's a "Baby Friendly" accredited hospital and BC, so that may have something to do with it.
If I still haven't got the attachment thing by the latter end of this week, I think I'll go see the LC up the mountain.
Thanks for your posts, Kelly, I feel like I'm still on track with this BFing caper and you confirmed my perspective :)
To anyone who's been offended by what I have written, that's not my intention. I probably offended some people in the Belly Buddies threads with my insistence on a natural birth, spurning the use of drugs and modern interventions, so I can accept that I'll just rub people the wrong way with my sticking to methods that got the human race this far before medicalisation and formula. There are people who do better with medical intervention and formula, but I have no reason to resort to these, being that everything else is all well with me.
I guess this is my 'vent'. I'm not being a martyr by 'persisting' with BFing, I'm just doing what squillions of other women are able to do, so why should I give up? I'm glad I keep hearing the stories from women who assure me that this part is short-lived and it gets better. I've always been pretty good with delayed gratification, so I can go through this part to reap further rewards down the track :)
Shower beckons...better get in quick before Oscar wakes for another feed - I can leak in the shower under the hot water and be less full and awkard for him!
Bathsheba - I'll remember that about non-textbook attachment :) As long as it's not painful...I'll stick that mental note at the front of my brain!

IK: I hope i haven't given you poor advice regarding attachment! I repeat: I'm no expert! Just because it's something I have been lucky enough to "get away with" doesn't mean that it's right for everyone. Like Nic has explained: nipples come in all shapes and sizes (mine have a good "teat" part to latch onto) so I have probably been able to get away with a poorer technique than most. What I meant to emphasise was to beware the Perfectionist Untrained Advisor like MCHNs/Midwives who haven't done specialised lactation training. They can often make a situation worse (I think) by insisting that a women feed text-book style every second of feeding when, in real life, women have issues like tending to other children, cooking a meal, shopping and sleeping that they need to do at the same time as BFing. Did the midwife at the hospital I was at with Wade help me BF whilst I was lying down in bed with him beside me? No! I had to be sitting correctly in an appropriate arm chair, with an appropriate cushion, etc etc etc.... in reality women can't give every feed this way... some need to feed in bed and that's ok but the baby's position is totally different... that's why my rule of thumb is the "no pain" one. The baby's mouth still has to be nice and wide etc but in terms of positioning the advice really should be more flexible. Anyhow, as I said, I just wanted to point out that from my experience a lot of health professionals will tend to treat the nursing woman's body as a milking machine to be "fixed" rather than a mum to be supported... that's what i don't want to see happening to my June Buddies! :)

Just a quick hello to everyone today. Slept in til 11am today (much needed sleep) and now have heaps to do.
Jess - hope things all work out for you.
Jaspen - thinking of you, sounds like you have a tough few weeks ahead of you still, hang in there and try to take good care of yourself.

Just want to say that I think part of what enigma is saying is what I am feeling. we see pro booby everywhere, we know it ourselves, but in all this no-one really says "and if you tried it and it didn't work, it's ok you did your best." I tried to BF ryan. we persisted for over a week and he was clearly hungry even after draining both sides. because he would take both sides AND 60ml of formula. I am very much pro-woman and pro-mums. I think bfing is great and I do blame society for it now being a learned skill. but I am also not so silly as to try and persist when it wasn't best for me or ryan. I cried for ages when I realised formula was better for him. i didn't make the choice for me because I wanted more sleep. I made the choice for ryan because he was hungry.

and kel, thanks for posting here, hijack away. I'm sure when you made the post you knew if nothing else, discussion would follow!!!

It's funny, when I had issues with Elijah, I rang the LC (on Pinky's advice) and one of the first things I said to the LC was, 'I am really worried about my supply, I think it's really low.' She said, 'What is it with you new mums and supply?!' LOL!

Some of us will have supply problems, but make sure you don't self diagnose it. Get a second opinion from an LC and make sure you have have that when you make changes - if you have to change to formula at least you will be at peace with it, because you knew you tried your best and you sought that help from a good source. The link I posted in the breastfeeding forum for the LC in Sydney contains a reference to LC's as part of the national association, so they need to obide by a code of ethics, and most of them are IBCLC.

I know we all see 'breast is best' stuff posted around the place, but in the discussion thread when this article was initially posted (in infant led feeding) the ABA was contacted about it and made some interesting comments, about their change in approach to the topic. It's like anything though, the messages have been so far ingrained and it's hard to break sayings and habits. Unfortunately though, I think lots of women who bottlefeed for health reasons have the hardest time dealing with it (as opposed to those who WANT to bottlefeed regardless) and they need support to de-brief and get answers. You can only do this with a professional and not other women on a website. So this is why I think it is so raw to deal with it here. There are lots of undealt with feelings, thoughts and emotions and we aren't qualified to deal with those. That's why there are still older women today with issues with their births and why as soon as you are pregnant or have a new baby, they are first to share their horror stories or share their 2c worth because they haven't had the opportunity to deal with it. Unfortunately #2 - while it sucks having it in your face, it is important that mums know that the best form of nutrients and food supply for babies is breastmilk, but perhaps instead of spending money on campaigns saying just that, they need to approach it a little differently. The way formula is marketed these days, some women do think that formula can be superior with all those vitamins and minerals in it, when they don't realise how rich breastmilk is already, plus the live stuff in it too, like white blood cells, antibodies etc. So It's a tough one. All I guess I can say is that if you have gone to formula and are having difficulty with how you feel, perhaps you could see someone who does post-natal de-briefing - some LC's do this, I know my teacher does...

Dont' worry, Bathsheba, I'm just taking what you said and storing it in case I happen to get at attachment that isn't painful but isn't the 'baby wrapped close around your body, supporting hand in the small of the back' scenario. I haven't even got to the point where the 'textbook' position is pinch-free for the whole feed. Sometimes it is painful, so I detach immediately, other times it's a little uncomfy so I let it go until it gets too pinchy. I hate doing that, but I also hate making Oscar hang out for an extra half hour to get a full feed! I know, it's a bit of a cop out, but it's the guilt thing. HOWEVER, I have made an extra appointment with the MHC nurse for Friday to continue the dialogue about whether I should see the LC in Monbluk or go to the breastfeeding clinic in Healesville. He's still flattening my nipple and the vasospasm blurs my sense of whether the pain after a feed is the blood constriction or a direct result of the poor attachment. I'll sort this one out, dammit! I KNOW it gets better, but I really want to avoid wishing away this time for the 'better' time, cos he'll only be this little once! There is no reason this BFing caper can't work for me, physically or mentally.
I agree with Kelly, FF or BF is quite emotive because people get very defensive about their position. It's a bit like co-sleeping - I am not hiding that we co-sleep to people I talk to and I sort of defy them to offer their 2 cents worth about it...so far, no takers! You do what you have to do and the only person you should be answerable to is yourself. If you are still conflicted, for goodness sake, find someone to talk to about it, someone qualified like a counsellor (a counsellor with some kind of certificate, cos anyone can legally be a counsellor) or psychologist. You don't need to reconcile your actions with other people, but you should be able to within yourself. If it's upsetting still, seek help!
Well, us Junies never really did shy away from contentious topics. I do remember us getting into some meaty topics during pregnancy! We can deal with this one :)

FYI some new (from today even) pics of Ryan on my site.

Took Tori to the MCHN today and she has put on another 300gm in a week, so things are going well here.

On the bf/ ff issue, all I wanted to say is that life is about choices that we make based on what is best for us and for our families. No one should feel bad about about choices they make, you should feel empowered that you are capable of being able to make those choices, and satisfied that your main aim in life is making sure your child is the happiest it can be. I am sure as our babies grow up they are not going to remember whether they were bottle or breast fed, and they are probably not even going to care. All they are going to remember is that you LOVED them with every ounce of yourself, and spent many agonising hours making decisions to ensure that they had the best start to life.
So lets put away the big sticks and stop beating ourselves up about the decisions we are making, and just remember that every single thing we have done since we have found out that we were pregnant has been done out of love for the beautiful little babies that we have bought into this world!

Hi everyone,

Dee where abouts is Treasure Island? If you want we could arrange to meet up in that week if you want? just let me know.

Well school was back in today so I got to wear my baby sling which I haven't worn since DS1 as the other two boys just didn't like it. Cody really enjoyed it as he fell asleep on the way to school this morning and when I put him in it this arvo he was sleeping and he stayed asleep. I'm so happy about this, so I'll be wearing him alot more. Better go and do a bit of house work.

hugs xoxo

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if i hear " breastmilk is BEST for baby " one more time im going to go insane.
its not an attack on you Kelly , it just seems that i cant even turn to my baby buddies thread without hearing it or getting a link to an article about it
yes i do realize breastfeeding is important - to those who it suits.
but formula fed babies are just as healthy , have similar feeding issues ( apart from the obvious like latching on ) and as Candy mentioned - formula fed babies seem to settle & sleep for longer - but thats not the reason we formula feed !
im not going to comment on this subject anymore , its in my face enough as it is... i wish those who are breastfeeding well - but im also very pleased with my decision not to.

no one take this to heart , im just frustrated .

phew - nice to get that one off my chest

ETA - thank you CeeCee :)

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No matter how you feed your child enigma, we support you 100%, and everyone else who exclusively Formula feeds their child.

The internet is open to a million interpretations and I hope no-one thought I was saying bottlefeeding is bad! Because that's not what I meant. All I wanted to say was that if you are struggling, please don't hesitate to ask for help from a higher source and please don't feel bad doing so. That's it. If you want to discuss breastfeeding issues further, please post in the feeding forums. I haven't been directing this at those who choose to bottlefeed but those having problems and often it's so easy to give up if support seems hard to find. It's much easier than we might think. All of you will be supported no matter what, that's a given on BB.

Noone was thinking that Kelly.

Kelly could you PM me that list of LC please hun.Thanks. I would like to keep BF but already I am starting to feel my supply is diminishing.

god , now i feel a bit stupid about my little outbreak - not only am i having them at home , im having them online now :(
Thanks for understanding everyone , i wasnt trying to be rude - just stating my opinion...

hey jess, my supply was disappearing (was expressing to take milk to the hospital every day) and after trying everything i was advised to do, i was prescribed domperidone (otherwise known as motillium or maxalon) for my supply. take 2 tablets 3x a day, and im feeding as well as expressing up to 200mls extra a day. Its brilliant!! I was told about it by some of the girls in here :)