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I get a lot of judgement because of my faith, yes I'm open about it, mainly so that people can see that people of the pagan path and those that are witches etc aren't freaks of nature who sacrifice goats and babies etc. I'm also open to people asking questions and I'll explain to the best of my knowledge (and also point them in the direction of information that can help).:
I have christian and jewish bloodlines as well as my hereditary pagan line.
so let me get this straight, there are no shades of grey between a woman covering her entire body for modesty, or a 14 year old puking her guts up to fit into the smallest swimsuit. my point was that we should be able to celebrate our bodies, not cover them up. if you do this by choice, then more power to you, i don't judge adults that make this decision for themselves, my point was that a child should be given that option to display thier bodies to thier level of comfort - not told that they have to be covered up because of what their church/parents deem is morally acceptable.
i am now going to bow out of this debate, as everyone has pointed out, we are all entitled to our opinions, i have simply been voicing mine - and we are never all going to agree.
but to be clear - i AM NOT a religious bigot, i accept people on thier face value, and believe that the path to a fulfilling life is being loved and respected, and giving the same in return, not by the faith in which i do or don't live my life.
i have obviously offended quite a few people, of which was not my intent, but this is a public forum, and the thread is titled DEBATE, so we need to accept that there will be different opinions.
I hate to say it but unless you've studied the Koran and have any understanding of how a muslim family works, that is a judgement (or any other faith where covering is part of their lifestyle). It is not an opinion. In order to give an opinion you would really need to understand the culture, and to be a part of it or know someone close enough to understand.
Bath where is that keyhole quote of yours.
I hope I don't offend but I am really finding some of your comments really hard to swallow. Whilst this may be a debate, that doesn't give anyone free will to be offensive, especially when they are aware of causing possible offense (and just so you know I am posting this as a member not as a moderator so if you have a problem with anything I have said please address me personally as my thoughts are not that of the entire BB team).
I hope that more than any thing I say to my children that the way I live will make what I believe clear to them. When it comes to words though - I think similarly to some before me - that it would be silly to believe that only one way is right and then teach all faiths like they are all potentially right.
I don't think it's a bad idea to educate your children on what other people may believe though. And while I will accept my children rejecting the ideas of others, I won't be happy if they treat people badly because of their beliefs.
Mmmmmmm.....nothing quite as bitter and obscure as a fallen Catholic. What a misguided thing to say. This may very well be your experience with the people you know, but I also speak from the outside looking in. And you're wrong about Catholics as a whole. You're dead wrong.:
I don't agree with everything that encompasses the catholic faith - that's why I'm not one. But don't get nasty about it and think it's acceptable to throw in a cheap shot just because you used to be one.
:backtotopic:
LOL at the swimsuits! My DD wears a full-body swimsuit because when she's in the pool i want herto stay warm long enough to have a good time swimming and not have to get out shivering after 10 minutes! We are in Scotland though...
One man's modesty is another's shame, that's just perception. DD is very modestly dressed in the pool i suppose but although i hate seeing breastless girls in bikinis i don't actually choose her suit on THAT basis, only on the practical basis of warmth. She does own suits others have bought her which are more bathing suit shaped than wetsuit shaped and i don't veto them, she just likes to be warm too i guess. I mean, i don't like her in pink but she is loving the pink right now and is happy to say so so i don't think i've crushed her inner sense of style...
There is a lot to be said for women covering up. As Brontide points out, rates of self-harm and eating disorders are MUCH lower in countries where most women are covered. Having said that the rates are way higher (though still lower than non-muslim population) among muslims living in western countries, whether they wear hijab/abaya etc. or not. This seems to be because in muslim countries where most women are covered it is well understood that how you look is not who you are, whereas in western countries this is not how society thinks and it is much harder for girls to grow up believing it when they are surrounded by western culture. In all honesty, even though i live in a western country the muslim women i know definitely have some of the healthiest attitudes to their bodies. I can remember complaining about my thighs once to a friend who laughed and said "Who thinks about their THIGHS!?". It's refreshing to be around that sort of indifference to the physical state when i'm otherwise bombarded by the usual rubbish from the media in this country.
Different attitudes, perceptions and beliefs widen the world and it's views. Imagine how dangerous it would be, how narrow and closed, if we all believed or were required to believe the same thing...
Bx
WOAH what a generalisation... Off topic, but the Catholics I know (a total of 4 couples, so by no means a decent sample size lol) are gorgeous and accepting. Just because the Pope believes something, doesn't mean all Catholics follow like sheep.:
especially in my experiences, catholics, are quite biggoted against people of other religions
Not sure if this off topic but I have a question... so a 13yo girl should be allowed to walk out of the house in anything? Like a mini-skirt, g-string, and mid-drift showing top, because she wants to? I personally don't think thats acceptable, I do think she should be more modest, and as a parent I *would* impose my views there. But in your opinion, would I, as a parent, be wrong?:
a child should be given that option to display thier bodies to thier level of comfort - not told that they have to be covered up because of what their church/parents deem is morally acceptable.
But if I believe that my faith is the only way then I'd be doing my children a disservice if I didn't teach them that. I was brought up Christian, of the more conservative kind (Baptist), but I was also taught to respect other people and their beliefs. I intend to teach my children the same way. I went to Catholic school and my best friend there was an agnostic, I went to university with people who were Catholic, Anglican, JW, atheist, pagan and I don't know what else and I got on well with all of them because their particular faith did not make a difference how I saw them as a person. Tthat's not to say I've only ever gotten on well with everyone I've ever met but religion has never been the reason why I've not made friends with someone. I have also met people of many religions who have been close minded and intolerant, and atheists who have been as bad too.:
As for the whole swimsuit comment, well I find there an example of the intolerance the poster claims religious people have. So what if they're taught to cover up? You believe that someone's body should be celebrated but that is only your belief. I don't have a problem with body image but I don't want to share my body with all and sundry. I am not ashamed or embarrased by my body but I feel more comfortable when dressed modestly and that is something else I will be sharing with my daughter. I think the whole "celebrate you body" thing is part of modern Western society. There's plenty of people in other cultures who walk around half naked not because they see it as somehow more worthy but because it's their cultural norm.
I probably have more to say (rant, LOL) but I have to put the baby to bed.
Celebrating your body doesn't to mean showing it off to people (who generally don't matter). In this household we celebrate our bodies by being kind to them and being thankful that all our bits and pieces work well.
I'm a bit puzzled still, that covering your body is seen as something forced upon us...
misguided? the fact that i used to be a catholic means that i can comment on some of the people that i came across, and i didn't say catholics as a whole, because honey, i havn't met catholics 'as a whole'.:
and it wasn't a cheap shot, i said IN MY EXPERIENCE, therefore, as it is my experience i am entitled to say it.
i laugh that the majority of you have attacked me for my opinions, and said that i am misguided and biggoted, but i have clearly stated that i do not judge people on their religion - and yet most of you have judged me.
I don't think it is acceptable either. I think all of our religious beliefs taint the way that we act, behave, including raising our children. Infact I am beginning to think that it is nearly impossible to act independent of these beliefs. Beliefs will guide the way you dress, and that in itself sends a message to your child. I think it is irresponsible to be not guide your children (especially in areas of modesty) for fear of imparting your religious beliefs on them.:
Okay... I will attempt a reply....but it is after a 10 hour day of work, so if you need clarification, please ask.
Our experiences are that we are Christians, but not born to Christian families. My family went to church growing up, but BUT did not practice Christian beliefs within the household. I don't consider affairs and infidelity to be a part of Christian beliefs, so I don't say I grew up in a Christian household. DH's family were anti-Christianity. So we have our beliefs on our own accord rather than a tradition built from our family.:
Is it right / fair / meritious to raise your child in a particular religion as the one true religion? For example, to raise your child as a christian / catholic / buddhist ONLY, and not introduce or teach other religions. To clarify, the opposite of this would be to attempt to educate your child about all religions, and allow them to choose for themselves when they are older.
In saying all that, we bring our kids to church when we can make it. We pray at night with the girls before bed.... we pray positive affirmations over our girls every night. We don't ask our girls to pray with us, if they want too they can, but we don't ask them too. We have decided that they will do this with us as a family, until they are old enough to take care of themselves at home and decide they don't want to come.
Matilda actually asked about a lady she say wearing a head covering the other day why she was, and I said that some people believe that is something that God wants them to do. She asked me if it was something that God wanted me to do, and I told her He hadn't told me that yet, but if he did I would. I told her other people believe different things about God and that some people don't believe in God at all. She didn't ask anymore, and I didn't offer anymore. I'm happy to answer questions, and relate things as what I believe... so if she asks me questions about God I will say "I believe..." rather than say "The truth is..." because although I believe it to be the truth, I want her in her maturity to make her own decisions.
*breath* Now.... my top belief of all time is that God has called us all to Love. So in my role as a parent to her, my job in the religious stakes is to show her how to love EVERYBODY. People from other religions, people of other races, people of other social status, people of other sexual persuations ;) etc etc etc. Its what I believe the most strongly. That is something I will urge onto Matilda from now. I will show her in my actions and I will urge her to do in her life as well. Love everybody. I don't want to hear her talking negatively about another person unnecesarily, not on.
Now this brings us onto the other topic going at the moment which is about the swimsuit. :rolleyes: sorry.... To me and what I believe (again because this is all about me :p) I think if its what the Dugger's do... its what they do. Its not how I would handle it, but *meh* it doesn't hurt them does it? I believe we should love out bodies and respect them enough to not have to reveal too much. I love my body, I don't need to show it off in order to feel this way. I do like to cover up at the beach, mainly because I feel more comfortable and it really isn't about how much skin to show... its about enjoying myself at the beach. I wear a one piece in the pool because to me its about exercise... not about what I look like. With my girls... I will encourage them to appreciate the body they were given and to wear what they want within reason. If they want to wear mini-skirts, than I will offer leggings.... I want them to think high enough about their body's that they don't need to flaunt them.
You are right Boobooloo some of your comments are really offensive.
Attacks, negativity about any religion are just not on. Regardless of what you say you have attacked using your words, another faith. I too am speaking on behalf of myself not as a moderator.
My daughter is converting to Islam. One of the things I love is the modesty she has adopted. She has a beautiful body - she's not ashamed but I am glad she's not flaunting it!
Judgements on rituals, beliefs and worship are not okay.
sorry, I posted twice. I'll probably come back and fill this in later.
i have just reread all of my posts on this topic, and other than my swimwear comment, i don't believe i have made a comment that is in any way insulting. as i have stated, many times, my intent has never been to offend. as i said in my first post in this thread, i want my children to learn and appreciate all types of religions, and make an educated choice on what suits them in their own hearts. i am not going to intentionally offend a religion if i want my child to be able to experience what it has to offer if they choose to partake.
and sunflower, other than my swimsuit comment, i haven't attacked any rituals, beliefs etc of any particular religion. yes, i did comment that in my experience catholics are the first to judge, once again, i grew up catholic, i went to catholic primary and secondary schools, i did all the communions etc, and yes, i believe i am entitled to the opinion that i came across alot of biggoted catholics. this was not a generalisation on catholics as a whole, it was of people that i encountered.
on the body topic, i am not a body flaunter either, and no i don't want to have my daughter flaunting her nude self around when she's older, i just think that i bodies aren't something that we should feel we have to keep hidden for fear of retribution. and no, you're right, i haven't researched muslim religion in great detail, and as i stated earlier, more power to adults who make the decision, i applaud your decision, especially in a western society, i just like to think that kids have a bit more choice.
once again, i have not meant to intentionally cause offense, and if you can point out to me exactly where i have then i'm happy to hear your opinion. however i have probably copped more personal atttacks than i have dished.
There is no retribution in Islam for dressing immodestly. As i understood it women are not expected to be eye candy fo men, or to compete amongst themselves for status based on their beauty or the appearance of their clothes. Freedom From and Freedom To can both have wonderful benefits. Would you rather be free to flaunt your body or free from being judged on your physical appearance? Free to dress in a way that advertises your personal wealth, or free from being judged based on your financial situation? Does that make sense?
From the perspective of the Muslim women i know Islam doesn't demand modesty of them, it offers it as sanctuary. I would guess it's probably the same amongst many groups who dress modestly - it's not about forbidding anything, but rather about allowing a person to exist beyond their physical appearance.
boobaloo i think people react personally when they feel personally offended. I understand you have met many catholics as you have descibed, but those people are not these people. It's like if i said i'd met a lot of black people who were bigots or asian people who were theives. The fact that you know bigots who are catholic doesn't mean catholicism causes bigotry, it's just that bigotry knows no boundaries and exists in all groups, all walks of life. I think people are just reacting strongly because they feel you are selecting their faith, such a personal thing, to attack them through. FWIW i was not offended by the swimsuit thing either particularly. I know why i dress DD the way i do, misconceptions of those looking at her aren't really on my radar.
Bx
1. Let me apologise - not all fallen Catho's are 'bitter' and 'obscure'.
2. Lols about the 'as a whole' wording. But we all know what I'm driving at.
4. I'm sorry Boobaloo, but trying to prove that you used to have lots of Roman Catholic brownie points does not justify your offensive comments. I was offended for my husband, my in-laws, and my extended family. They do not fit into the mould of your observation, or 'experience' as you put it.
5. The ladies with no religion are probably looking at all this thinking thank goodness they have nothing to do with it! Totally! I suppose it's a lesson in how quickly things turn sour when you're talking religion!
Moving right along.....!