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ahh thanks ladies! it makes sense with the voteing! to not get fined do you put down religious reasons or just pay the fine? (sorry if thats out of line)
and the fences. yep. fairly rough neighborhoods that i have seen the halls in - maybe because they looked nice and clean and well kept.
you may not realise this but we get a 'get out of jail free card' :p:
No, not really. There is a clause in the voting laws (and i am not 100% but i think it may have come about due to the stand that JW's have taken) that allows the choice of voting. If you've ever had one of the fines you'll see that you have the option of ticking a little box about why you didnt vote.
one of the legitimate reasons why you didnt vote is because you are a "Conciencious Objector"
So we do get the fine, but because we tick conciencious objector we dont have to pay it. The requirement to state your reason for being a consciencious object has to be valid and being a JW is a valid reason.
Recently i was still registered on the roll at my old address and because I didnt put a vote in at the state election I recieved a fine. I called them up to explain that i had moved to a new electorate and was on the roll in my new electorate (yes we still have to be registered to vote), I was told that some people who are failing to vote were ticking that box to get out of paying the fine....i guess they know that there are only 65,000 odd JW's in australia and they were probably getting a lot more 'consciencious objector' forms back then they should have. So he said i should writer the name of my congregation and the name of one of the elders in order to confirm that I am a JW. I dont know if all JW's are doing this or have to do this, but It was the first I heard about it.
Hi ladies, I thought I'd post a couple of questions that I have after our recent discussions! Now I'm not trying to debate here, but I am interested in how you get to the beliefs you have :)
1. Now I know that you have your own scripture that you use to illustrate your point, but WRT the trinity, and Jesus - how do you go about the verse in Philippians 2 that Cricket quoted in the previous thread? How about in Genesis 1:26 when it says "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."
2. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read (and heard) that the watchtower (which I believe is the authority under which JW's reside) have on a number of occasions changed/added to or updated the scriptures? How does that work? Does that not go against Revelation 22:18-19?
I had thought of other things that Ive forgotten now :redface: I'll most likely be back :)
Geez SS, we're getting into the deep stuff now! :rofl: Thats alright, I'll try to explain it and hopefully it'll make some sense :)
1. After looking through my bible, I'm guessing the reference is Philippians 2:5-7? In the New World Translation, that actually reads: 'Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men.' So here, Paul was using Jesus as an example when explaining to the Philippians the need for humility. He was showing that Jesus obviously held Jehovah as higher than himself, and therefore didn't even consider himself an equal. Interestingly, look at how some other Bible translations read -
'Who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God' - The New Testament
'He - truly of divine nature! - never self-confidently made himself equal to God' - Das Neue Testament
'Who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a think to greedily make his own' - La Bibbia Concordata
'He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force she should try to become equal with God' - Today's English Version
'Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped' - The New Jerusalem Bible
Sometimes it's claimed that these renderings imply that Jesus already had equality but didn't want to hold onto it, or he didn't need to grasp at equality, because he already had it, which is another basis for Trinitarian beliefs. But if you look at the original Greek text (har pa'zo) it means to seize, or snatch violently, which wouldn't be necessary if Jesus was part of God or equal to God.
As for the scripture you quoted in Genesis - I don't understand how that can be used to support the Trinity? It seems quite clear, at least to me, that Jehovah is talking to another person, using 'our' and 'us', rather than 'me' or 'my'!
2. Firstly, our authority is Jehovah and the Bible - the Watchtower is just a tool used to help us learn. It is used to explain different facets of the Bible so that we can understand :) In regards to changing or adding to the Bible, we absolutely do not change it, or add to it. While we use a different bible to what most other people use, The New World Translation, you only need to compare it to many other generally accepted bibles to see that it is the same. Also to this point, I would like to respectfully ask if your bible uses God's name, Jehovah? That is probably the only 'change' we have made, and even then, God's name has only been put back into the Bible, whereas other translations took it out and put in 'Lord' or similar. So, not so much a change as a restoration.
In regards to changes made when translating from ancient languages, a LOT of effort went into reading and understand the old language before translating it into the new. This requires, not just reading the verse in question, but reading the verse in context with what is around it, and understanding the different meanings that can be applied to old world languages. This is where most doctrinal problems come in, through translations that are not as accurate, or translations that have been coloured by the translators own understanding.
Something else you may have heard, which is similar, is that our core beliefs change, and this may be interpreted as changing the bible. Definitely, there have been major changes in our understanding of the Bible. For instance, we used to celebrate Christmas and birthdays. We used to smoke. At one time it was firmly believed that the end of this system would come in 1975! The first two examples were a lack of understanding, and once Jehovah helped his 'slave' understand that we were wrong, we quickly changed. As for the end of the system in 1975, this was caused by relying on man's understanding, rather than Jehovah's. A lot of people stopped being Jehovah's Witnesses when the system didn't end, but it has to be asked - were they actually serving Jehovah, or were they serving because they thought they knew the deadline? Proving our love for Jehovah means nothing if we know when our reward will come. Like, if I knew the end wouldn't come for another 5 years, I could go out, do whatever I wanted, and then make sure I'm back serving Jehovah before Armageddon - and that would only prove Satan's point, that humans only serve Jehovah for the reward. But, if we don't know when it will come, we have to serve Jehovah through the good and the bad, and that REALLY proves Satan to be a liar :)
I hope all that made sense, feel free to ask more questions!
Well...I do want to say thanks for going into all this. I went to school with a JW. We were very good friends. She was shunned from the congregation at 15 after we were silly & tried to run away from home. She lived with her father & 3 brothers, all JW's, & was sent away to live with her mother, who wasn't a JW.
She had a hard time with it though. Her father (who it turns out was her step father, she didn't know til she was 15) was quite strict with her. She wasn't allowed to socialise out side of school with people who weren't JW's. At school she just wanted to be normal, so she used to get us to buy packs of christmas cards for her so she could give them out. & we used to do something little for her birthday every year. Just coz we didn't like that she was left out.
I do understand a bit now about why she was sent away, but at the time I thought it was rediculusly unfair. To be turned away from the only family she'd known. Her mother had left quite a few years earlier, & she had nothing to do with her. But I do think she wanted a reason to get out. Not just from the church, but from the confinements of her life.
Today she has one of her brothers living with her. I think he may be autistic. I'm not sure if he left the church, or if he was too much for their father to deal with, so he sent him to their mother also (the mother is odd & useless TBH).
I never really understood much about their religion. We asked the odd question & talked about some things, but in high school there are so many more important things to talk about...like boys etc! lol
clover, JW parents will attempt (as best they can) to bring the children up according to the standards of the bible, this is why the kids appear to be restricted from the normal activities that other children are participating in. Some parents allow their children to associate with their school friends (i do) while others wont. This is not a JW rule, its a personal choice that each parent must make. I've chosen not to allow them to associate with certain school friends in settings that conflict with our standards or religous beliefs such as birthday/christmas/halloween or easter parties. .... but they can go to see a movie or come over for a bbq or go to the beach together.
Like any parent, we want them to adopt our standards and morals, but the fact is that not all children grow up to become a JW just because their parents are and again, this is their personal choice. We allow our kids to make that choice as they get older because faith is a very personal thing and it should amount to a relationship between the individual and God. But while they are still young, we have the responsibility to teach, direct and guide them and to make certain decisions for them. This would have been the case with your old school friend.
I can assure you that there are no Jw rules about sending naughty children away. It certainly would not have happened becasue the congregation shunned her and thus the father had to send her on her way. Its more likely that she chose to leave rather then live under the restrictions that her father put on her.
Yeah, that does make sence. I wasn't trying to sound against it or anything. She told us she was kicked out, thats all I know. & yes I do think she was happy to get out away from her father.
I don't know any other JW's, so this is the only experience with it I have. I like the way you are raising your children. I believe that all kids do have the right to a normal social life. I do completely see why you avoid the particular holiday traditions, but its good to know that not all JW's are like this with their kids. Thats the way most of them were that I could see, but I went to the Catholic school, so had nothing to do with JW's there. I only have that one experience with the religion, so I really don't have any idea.
This is true, its not because we have named him as such though, its because the God of the hebrew scriptures is named 'Jehovah':
In hebrew its YHWY (Yahwey) and this name can be found in many bible translations at Psalm 83:18. I had the experience when i was first studying the bible with the JWs (20years ago) My best friend and flatmate refused to accept that Gods name was Jehovah. I assured her it was in the bible but she jsut laughed and said that JW's made it up. Well, my friend had an old family heirloom, it was a very old king james pocket version of the bible handed down to her by her Irish Catholic great grandmother. I opened it up to Psalm 83:18 and there it was "That Men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the msot high over all the earth"
she wasnt happy lol
This is true. Its in harmony with the command that Jesus gave his diciples before he returned to heaven at Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20*teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU.":
We take that command seriously which is why we go door to door. This is actually the method that Jesus sent his diciples out also which is found at
Luke 10:1-6
10 After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come. ...5*Wherever YOU enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’ 6*And if a friend of peace is there, YOUR peace will rest upon him
Not everything is taken literally in the OT or NT. For instance, we do view the tree in eden as literal, but we dont view it so literally that we think it gave Adam and Eve special knowledge from God or that they became like God. But we do view the flood as literally happening and we view the crossing of the red sea as literal.:
The dietry restrictions of the mosaic law are not followed because the mosaic law was made obsolete when Jesus arrived. A new covenant was made in which the old covenant was no longer required....hence why we dont observe the sabbath.
Birthdays are not celebrated because they have a religious origin to them. The jews, nor ancient hebrews, nor Jesus or the christians ever celebrated birthdays because they were in fact a religious celebration of pagan nations. The hebrews were told not to adopt the pagan practices which explaines why Jesus never celebrated his birthday. The christians continued to observe that requirement and so we also observe it.:
this is true...christmas was originally the roman celebration of the birth of the Sun (sound familiar?):
Also, Dec 25 is not the date of Jesus birth, Nor did Jesus ask us to celebrate his birth....the early christians never celebrated his birth so nor do we.
Yes this is true. We believe that the book of Revelation explains the events that will take place in 'the last days' including the destruction of Gods enemy Satan the devil and the restoration of the earth and its inhabitants to endless perfect life in a paradise earth.:
Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4*And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Yes, this is a teaching that is found throughout the bible. The prophets of the hebrew scriptures mention such an earthly paradise, its spoken of in the Psalsm as being Gods purpose of mankind and its where mankind started out...in the garden of Eden which was a paradise.:
Jesus told the criminal next to him "And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
Jesus told those listening in the sermon on the mount at Matt 5:5“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth"
Psalm 37:29 says “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”
Not quite. The passover is the jewish celebration to do with their salvation from Egyption bondage. We celebrate the 'memorial of Christs death' which is celebrated on the same day as the passover because it is the day Jesus died. On the last passover that Jesus celebrated, he instituted a new celebration and told his diciples to keep doing it in rememberance of him.:
The account is found in Luke 22:14*
At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15*And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer; 16*for I tell YOU, I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17*And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; 18*for I tell YOU, From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives.”
19*Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20*Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf
later the Apostle Paul spoke about the christian celebration of the memorial at 1Corinthians 11:23*thus showing that it had become a celebration commemorating Christs death which they did yearly on the anniversary of his death.
For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24*and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25*He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26*For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives
most teenagers go thru that stage in their lives...i know i did.:
I've seen many of my jw's friends kids go that same way....and as painful as it is for the parents, i've never seen one family close the door on the child. All the parents I know of still have communication and a relationship with their grown chidlren who never became jws. One of my close friends had one of their daughters turn gay, and they still loved them and kept them close. My other close friend's daughter left home and got herself pregnant at aged 16...they begged her to come back home with her child, which she did...she's about to get married to a really nice guy now, not a jw but they are supporting her in her decision and helping with her wedding.
I really think its a huge misconception about JW's being these ultra strick bible bashing types who reject anyone who who does not follow their beliefs...its just not the case.
berenice has already answered, but i just thought i'd add a little about the 'Us' in genesis.:
We've been shown by John 1:1 that Jesus existed with God when he says "And the word with with God"
So we know that Jesus and the many other angels in heaven existed with God....the Us is them. God was speaking to the other spirit beings existiing with him in heaven. Job 38:4 also tells us that with the creation of the physical world "All the sons of God began shouting in applause"
*Job 38:4*Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
...*7*When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
And there is another verse about the one who was the very first spirit creation of God in Psalms 8 which shows that this one (who can only be Jesus) helped his father in the physical creation
22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ... 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men
So the 'us' in genesis are the spirit sons of God including Jesus, who resided with him in heaven before the physical world was created.
This is a very interesting thread. I have a question that I don't think has been covered, regarding witnessing. (I hope its not out of line.) I was just wondering about when JW's go door knocking and talking to people in the street, etc. Who determines where and when you go witnessing? Or does each JW choose this? Is there a certain "quota" of witnessing that you have to do, i.e. a certain number of people you should speak to a year, etc? I apologise if this sounds really stupid or offensive (I don't mean to be), but it is something that I have sometimes wondered.
All JW's are divided into 'congregations', which are basically just suburbs divided up so that there aren't too many/few JW's in a congregation. So you'll have 4 borders, generally main roads, that make up your 'territory'. Each territory is sectioned into separate maps, about 40 in my congregation, that has between 5-10 blocks on it. We try and cover all of our territory regularly, at least every 6 months, and there is a brother in each congregation who is in charge of looking after the maps and making sure that different maps get done, rather than just the same ones.
WRT the witnessing 'quota', its kind of yes and no. For me, I am just a publisher, so I go witnessing when I can, generally once a week, and I average 5-10 hours per month. Some people however, make the choice to be 'pioneers', and this means they work fulltime in the ministry. For a regular pioneer, this means getting 70 hours per month. These pioneers also generally work parttime to support themselves, so they are very busy! We even have missionaries, in different countries all over the world, and their 'quota' is 120 hours per month! It is all a personal choice though, you don't have to be a pioneer, and even if you are one, if you are having difficulty you can always ask for help or stop being a pioneer - it's not written in stone :)
Hope that answers your question!
Thanks Berenice! :)
Can I ask another question. What is the "aim" of witnessing? I have read here that contrary to popular belief JW's don't actually try to convert people. Do you report your witnessing activities to anyone, e.g. brother, church elder? If so, what do you say?
Our reasons for witnessing are 2 fold. The first and foremost reason is to to 'teach and make diciples'. But we would only do this if people ask us to teach them. We offer a free home bible study to do that and we visit them on a regular basis and provide them with study aids and a bible if they dont have one. The goal is obviously to help them gain enough bible knowledge for them to make an informed decision about becoming a JW, so i guess you could call it conversion....but its a conversion based on knowledge rather then an emotional conversion that we see in some church's. To become a JW may take several years for some people. A person must make any needed changes in their life. If they are a smoker, they need to stop smoking, if they have addictions, they must get out of those addictions. They also need to conform their life to the standards of the bible, unmarried couples need to become married etc etc ...so it could take a very long time for some to make those decisions.:
The second reason is to 'preach', that is spread the message that Jesus wanted his followers to spread. That message is that God has established a kingdom that will soon resolve all of mankinds troubles and all mankind must know this message. They dont have to accept it of course but they all have to hear it because God wants all people to have the choice. This is why we keep coming back...even when the householder isnt interested.
We do report our activity. Every month each publisher puts a report of how many hours we spent and how many magazines or books we placed...and of course how many bible studies we are currently conducting (if any). Each congregation gathers that information from each of its members and sends the totals into Bethel located in NSW. From there the information from the entire country is sent to Bethel in America, along with every other country where JW's are located and the worldwide data is released once a year.
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Not a JW but do want to spread the JW love a bit - I have really enjoyed the home Bible studies I have done with JWs. And not once have I felt pressured into converting; I've been having chats for over 2 years now. (:) clearly not good enough for the JWs!)
I wouldn't convert unless I was convinced of all of the teachings, whereas I'm happy to go to a Church were I only agree with 95% of the teachings, because it's OK to disagee with the Church but not with the JW teachings. Which I do respect - I almost wish that my normal Church was so keen on getting wrinkles ironed out and everyone agreeing!
Thank Peg. :) Very interesting, and it seems like a very sensible way of "converting" someone, i.e. letting them make the decision themselves and then taking all the necessary steps before actually being allowed to join.
It does lead to another question though: what if someone stops smoking, gets rid of their addictions, etc because they want to become JW, and then, say a few years down the line, something traumatic happens to them that triggers all these bad habits to start again? I am thinking that you would hope that their faith would get them through and that they no longer need these "crutches", however I know that for some people addiction is actually a physical illness. Would the church help them get back on track?
Yes thats why its not really conversion in the true sense of the word. Its more like we 'convince' people that this is the way to worship God and once they are convinced of that, then they make a conscious decision to worship along with us. Baptism will come much later because that decision requires action on their part to conform to the laws set out in the bible.:
Yes, absolutely.:
We are just like anyone else. We have our problems and issues and things from the past that cause us distress. If someone relapses into sin, the elders will try to provide as much support and practical assistance as they can to help the person get back on top of things. But the elders will only do this if the brother or sister actually wants and responds to their help. If they dont want assistance and choose to leave the congregation, then there is not much the elders can do about that. If they return to their old lives but still attend meetings, they would most likely be disfellowshiped. This is so that others know that a serious situation has developed and wrongdoer has rejected help. However if they do accept help and follow thru on all the advice and support given, then they wont be disfellowshipped but will continue to recieve help until they are back in control iykwim.
Its all about individual responsibility and making a conscious effort to hold onto the bible standards. As soon as a brother or sister lets go of those standards, then they put themselves at odds with the law of God and thus this will affect their relationship with God. So the elders do all they can to help the person to keep holding to Gods laws and avoid damaging his/her relationship with God because bascially, there is no point worshiping God if we dont uphold his laws.