Jehovah's Witness'

[sneakysparkle]

Hi ladies, I thought I'd post a couple of questions that I have after our recent discussions! Now I'm not trying to debate here, but I am interested in how you get to the beliefs you have

1. Now I know that you have your own scripture that you use to illustrate your point, but WRT the trinity, and Jesus - how do you go about the verse in Philippians 2 that Cricket quoted in the previous thread? How about in Genesis 1:26 when it says "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

2. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read (and heard) that the watchtower (which I believe is the authority under which JW's reside) have on a number of occasions changed/added to or updated the scriptures? How does that work? Does that not go against Revelation 22:18-19?

I had thought of other things that Ive forgotten now I'll most likely be back

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Geez SS, we're getting into the deep stuff now! Thats alright, I'll try to explain it and hopefully it'll make some sense

1. After looking through my bible, I'm guessing the reference is Philippians 2:5-7? In the New World Translation, that actually reads: 'Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men.' So here, Paul was using Jesus as an example when explaining to the Philippians the need for humility. He was showing that Jesus obviously held Jehovah as higher than himself, and therefore didn't even consider himself an equal. Interestingly, look at how some other Bible translations read -

'Who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God' - The New Testament
'He - truly of divine nature! - never self-confidently made himself equal to God' - Das Neue Testament
'Who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a think to greedily make his own' - La Bibbia Concordata
'He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force she should try to become equal with God' - Today's English Version
'Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped' - The New Jerusalem Bible

Sometimes it's claimed that these renderings imply that Jesus already had equality but didn't want to hold onto it, or he didn't need to grasp at equality, because he already had it, which is another basis for Trinitarian beliefs. But if you look at the original Greek text (har pa'zo) it means to seize, or snatch violently, which wouldn't be necessary if Jesus was part of God or equal to God.

As for the scripture you quoted in Genesis - I don't understand how that can be used to support the Trinity? It seems quite clear, at least to me, that Jehovah is talking to another person, using 'our' and 'us', rather than 'me' or 'my'!

2. Firstly, our authority is Jehovah and the Bible - the Watchtower is just a tool used to help us learn. It is used to explain different facets of the Bible so that we can understand In regards to changing or adding to the Bible, we absolutely do not change it, or add to it. While we use a different bible to what most other people use, The New World Translation, you only need to compare it to many other generally accepted bibles to see that it is the same. Also to this point, I would like to respectfully ask if your bible uses God's name, Jehovah? That is probably the only 'change' we have made, and even then, God's name has only been put back into the Bible, whereas other translations took it out and put in 'Lord' or similar. So, not so much a change as a restoration.

In regards to changes made when translating from ancient languages, a LOT of effort went into reading and understand the old language before translating it into the new. This requires, not just reading the verse in question, but reading the verse in context with what is around it, and understanding the different meanings that can be applied to old world languages. This is where most doctrinal problems come in, through translations that are not as accurate, or translations that have been coloured by the translators own understanding.

Something else you may have heard, which is similar, is that our core beliefs change, and this may be interpreted as changing the bible. Definitely, there have been major changes in our understanding of the Bible. For instance, we used to celebrate Christmas and birthdays. We used to smoke. At one time it was firmly believed that the end of this system would come in 1975! The first two examples were a lack of understanding, and once Jehovah helped his 'slave' understand that we were wrong, we quickly changed. As for the end of the system in 1975, this was caused by relying on man's understanding, rather than Jehovah's. A lot of people stopped being Jehovah's Witnesses when the system didn't end, but it has to be asked - were they actually serving Jehovah, or were they serving because they thought they knew the deadline? Proving our love for Jehovah means nothing if we know when our reward will come. Like, if I knew the end wouldn't come for another 5 years, I could go out, do whatever I wanted, and then make sure I'm back serving Jehovah before Armageddon - and that would only prove Satan's point, that humans only serve Jehovah for the reward. But, if we don't know when it will come, we have to serve Jehovah through the good and the bad, and that REALLY proves Satan to be a liar

I hope all that made sense, feel free to ask more questions!

[~clover~]

Well...I do want to say thanks for going into all this. I went to school with a JW. We were very good friends. She was shunned from the congregation at 15 after we were silly & tried to run away from home. She lived with her father & 3 brothers, all JW's, & was sent away to live with her mother, who wasn't a JW.
She had a hard time with it though. Her father (who it turns out was her step father, she didn't know til she was 15) was quite strict with her. She wasn't allowed to socialise out side of school with people who weren't JW's. At school she just wanted to be normal, so she used to get us to buy packs of christmas cards for her so she could give them out. & we used to do something little for her birthday every year. Just coz we didn't like that she was left out.
I do understand a bit now about why she was sent away, but at the time I thought it was rediculusly unfair. To be turned away from the only family she'd known. Her mother had left quite a few years earlier, & she had nothing to do with her. But I do think she wanted a reason to get out. Not just from the church, but from the confinements of her life.
Today she has one of her brothers living with her. I think he may be autistic. I'm not sure if he left the church, or if he was too much for their father to deal with, so he sent him to their mother also (the mother is odd & useless TBH).
I never really understood much about their religion. We asked the odd question & talked about some things, but in high school there are so many more important things to talk about...like boys etc! lol

[Peg]

clover, JW parents will attempt (as best they can) to bring the children up according to the standards of the bible, this is why the kids appear to be restricted from the normal activities that other children are participating in. Some parents allow their children to associate with their school friends (i do) while others wont. This is not a JW rule, its a personal choice that each parent must make. I've chosen not to allow them to associate with certain school friends in settings that conflict with our standards or religous beliefs such as birthday/christmas/halloween or easter parties. .... but they can go to see a movie or come over for a bbq or go to the beach together.

Like any parent, we want them to adopt our standards and morals, but the fact is that not all children grow up to become a JW just because their parents are and again, this is their personal choice. We allow our kids to make that choice as they get older because faith is a very personal thing and it should amount to a relationship between the individual and God. But while they are still young, we have the responsibility to teach, direct and guide them and to make certain decisions for them. This would have been the case with your old school friend.

I can assure you that there are no Jw rules about sending naughty children away. It certainly would not have happened becasue the congregation shunned her and thus the father had to send her on her way. Its more likely that she chose to leave rather then live under the restrictions that her father put on her.

[~clover~]

Yeah, that does make sence. I wasn't trying to sound against it or anything. She told us she was kicked out, thats all I know. & yes I do think she was happy to get out away from her father.
I don't know any other JW's, so this is the only experience with it I have. I like the way you are raising your children. I believe that all kids do have the right to a normal social life. I do completely see why you avoid the particular holiday traditions, but its good to know that not all JW's are like this with their kids. Thats the way most of them were that I could see, but I went to the Catholic school, so had nothing to do with JW's there. I only have that one experience with the religion, so I really don't have any idea.

[Peg]

Yeah, that does make sence. I wasn't trying to sound against it or anything. She told us she was kicked out, thats all I know. & yes I do think she was happy to get out away from her father.
I don't know any other JW's, so this is the only experience with it I have. I like the way you are raising your children. I believe that all kids do have the right to a normal social life. I do completely see why you avoid the particular holiday traditions, but its good to know that not all JW's are like this with their kids. Thats the way most of them were that I could see, but I went to the Catholic school, so had nothing to do with JW's there. I only have that one experience with the religion, so I really don't have any idea.

most teenagers go thru that stage in their lives...i know i did.
I've seen many of my jw's friends kids go that same way....and as painful as it is for the parents, i've never seen one family close the door on the child. All the parents I know of still have communication and a relationship with their grown chidlren who never became jws. One of my close friends had one of their daughters turn gay, and they still loved them and kept them close. My other close friend's daughter left home and got herself pregnant at aged 16...they begged her to come back home with her child, which she did...she's about to get married to a really nice guy now, not a jw but they are supporting her in her decision and helping with her wedding.

I really think its a huge misconception about JW's being these ultra strick bible bashing types who reject anyone who who does not follow their beliefs...its just not the case.

[Peg]

1. Now I know that you have your own scripture that you use to illustrate your point, but WRT the trinity, and Jesus - how do you go about the verse in Philippians 2 that Cricket quoted in the previous thread? How about in Genesis 1:26 when it says "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

2. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read (and heard) that the watchtower (which I believe is the authority under which JW's reside) have on a number of occasions changed/added to or updated the scriptures? How does that work? Does that not go against Revelation 22:18-19?

I had thought of other things that Ive forgotten now I'll most likely be back

berenice has already answered, but i just thought i'd add a little about the 'Us' in genesis.

We've been shown by John 1:1 that Jesus existed with God when he says "And the word with with God"

So we know that Jesus and the many other angels in heaven existed with God....the Us is them. God was speaking to the other spirit beings existiing with him in heaven. Job 38:4 also tells us that with the creation of the physical world "All the sons of God began shouting in applause"

*Job 38:4*Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
...*7*When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

And there is another verse about the one who was the very first spirit creation of God in Psalms 8 which shows that this one (who can only be Jesus) helped his father in the physical creation
22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ... 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

So the 'us' in genesis are the spirit sons of God including Jesus, who resided with him in heaven before the physical world was created.

[Starfish]

This is a very interesting thread. I have a question that I don't think has been covered, regarding witnessing. (I hope its not out of line.) I was just wondering about when JW's go door knocking and talking to people in the street, etc. Who determines where and when you go witnessing? Or does each JW choose this? Is there a certain "quota" of witnessing that you have to do, i.e. a certain number of people you should speak to a year, etc? I apologise if this sounds really stupid or offensive (I don't mean to be), but it is something that I have sometimes wondered.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

All JW's are divided into 'congregations', which are basically just suburbs divided up so that there aren't too many/few JW's in a congregation. So you'll have 4 borders, generally main roads, that make up your 'territory'. Each territory is sectioned into separate maps, about 40 in my congregation, that has between 5-10 blocks on it. We try and cover all of our territory regularly, at least every 6 months, and there is a brother in each congregation who is in charge of looking after the maps and making sure that different maps get done, rather than just the same ones.

WRT the witnessing 'quota', its kind of yes and no. For me, I am just a publisher, so I go witnessing when I can, generally once a week, and I average 5-10 hours per month. Some people however, make the choice to be 'pioneers', and this means they work fulltime in the ministry. For a regular pioneer, this means getting 70 hours per month. These pioneers also generally work parttime to support themselves, so they are very busy! We even have missionaries, in different countries all over the world, and their 'quota' is 120 hours per month! It is all a personal choice though, you don't have to be a pioneer, and even if you are one, if you are having difficulty you can always ask for help or stop being a pioneer - it's not written in stone

Hope that answers your question!

[Starfish]

Thanks Berenice!

Can I ask another question. What is the "aim" of witnessing? I have read here that contrary to popular belief JW's don't actually try to convert people. Do you report your witnessing activities to anyone, e.g. brother, church elder? If so, what do you say?

[Peg]

Thanks Berenice!

Can I ask another question. What is the "aim" of witnessing? I have read here that contrary to popular belief JW's don't actually try to convert people. Do you report your witnessing activities to anyone, e.g. brother, church elder? If so, what do you say?

Our reasons for witnessing are 2 fold. The first and foremost reason is to to 'teach and make diciples'. But we would only do this if people ask us to teach them. We offer a free home bible study to do that and we visit them on a regular basis and provide them with study aids and a bible if they dont have one. The goal is obviously to help them gain enough bible knowledge for them to make an informed decision about becoming a JW, so i guess you could call it conversion....but its a conversion based on knowledge rather then an emotional conversion that we see in some church's. To become a JW may take several years for some people. A person must make any needed changes in their life. If they are a smoker, they need to stop smoking, if they have addictions, they must get out of those addictions. They also need to conform their life to the standards of the bible, unmarried couples need to become married etc etc ...so it could take a very long time for some to make those decisions.

The second reason is to 'preach', that is spread the message that Jesus wanted his followers to spread. That message is that God has established a kingdom that will soon resolve all of mankinds troubles and all mankind must know this message. They dont have to accept it of course but they all have to hear it because God wants all people to have the choice. This is why we keep coming back...even when the householder isnt interested.

We do report our activity. Every month each publisher puts a report of how many hours we spent and how many magazines or books we placed...and of course how many bible studies we are currently conducting (if any). Each congregation gathers that information from each of its members and sends the totals into Bethel located in NSW. From there the information from the entire country is sent to Bethel in America, along with every other country where JW's are located and the worldwide data is released once a year.

[Peg]

remove double post

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Not a JW but do want to spread the JW love a bit - I have really enjoyed the home Bible studies I have done with JWs. And not once have I felt pressured into converting; I've been having chats for over 2 years now. ( clearly not good enough for the JWs!)

I wouldn't convert unless I was convinced of all of the teachings, whereas I'm happy to go to a Church were I only agree with 95% of the teachings, because it's OK to disagee with the Church but not with the JW teachings. Which I do respect - I almost wish that my normal Church was so keen on getting wrinkles ironed out and everyone agreeing!

[alioops]

Im just thinking about replacing every name for God with Jehovah.

Most translations use Lord because He is called the Lord of lords in Revelation, Deuteronomy, Psalm, and 1 Timothy.

In Exodus God calls Himself the I AM.

The prophecy to Mary from the angel said Jesus would be called Emmanuel

I believe that the Maker of everything, including language, can choose to have many names, so why is only the one used by JWs?

[Peg]

I believe that the Maker of everything, including language, can choose to have many names, so why is only the one used by JWs?

Jehovah is his personal name as opposed to the titles he is known by. Much like 'Prince Charles' has the title of Prince, but his personal name is Charles... 'Prince' doesnt really define his personality whereas 'Charles' is personal to him. And if he was only ever known or refered to as 'Prince', it would be hard to distinguish him from the many other 'Princes' who have the same title.

We still sometimes refer to God by his titles such as God, Lord, Father etc. But when you think about it, there are many god's, lords and fathers, so in order to identify whom we are talking about we use his personal name. In hebrew his name is YHWH and it means 'Become' and in hebrew its translated to mean 'He causes to become'

So the importance of his name is in the fact that it identifies him as the creator.