Religion #2

[Phteven]

This is an inter-faith thread for the discussion of Religious and Spiritual issues.

Please be respectful of other members when posting as this can be quite a controversial topic. Inflammatory and/or disrespectful posts won't be tolerated.

Continuing on from HERE

[Phteven]

Yael, what calender do you use to work out the dates of your holy days and festivals?

[Jennifer13]

Yay, a new thread! Just had to post so I get my reminders...

I still am going to buy the book someone recommended earlier in the thread, Calendar by David Ewing Duncan. But I think that only covers the development of the Gregorian calendar. Which calendar does Islam follow, Chloe?

[Heaven]

Ooh, a new thread. Wow.

Is it just called the Hebrew Calendar?

[~StarBright~]

Hi thank you Sara jane, i was really hoping i hadn't over stepped the mark in here, i really dont want to offend anyone or belittle anyones feelings or beleifs. I just feel so lost some days regarding this topic and i get slightly obsessed with solving this "problem" i see the world in.

I think it is fantastic that everyone in here is so open and willing to listen to others and share their stories and belieifs. It just makes me wish the rest of the world could do the same.

Like i said before, i still haven't had the chance to read through everything in here, and i will before i post again so that i dont put my foot in my mouth and offend anyone. But i guess in a way i reperesent someone who is curious about every religion, however i dont have anything really to offer except questions (later) and my own wacky theories and ideas that i have come up with to try to make sense of it all.

I will leave you all in peace until i read through everything and sort out a few things in my head. I have to make sure that when i start blabbing i take the time to think about how what i say will effect other people.

Thankyou for letting me share.

StarBright xoxox

[Heaven]

Oh, no way StarBright, I don't think what you said was offensive. Everyone can have there own opinion and others don't have to believe it. Turns out your opinion made sense to me and I quite agree, lol.
But yeah, do come back with questions!! This has been really interesting.

[Yael]

Dachlostar - the short answer is it's a lunar calender (traditionally), the long answer is that it is a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar (meaning it's corrected by an extra month to stop the months drifting away from the seasons that they should occur in), as a lunar year is shorter by around 10 days then a solar year.


Ok, i've copied this from Wiki (i've edited out bit i think are irrelevant, it's pretty long):

The Hebrew or Jewish calendar is the annual calendar used in Judaism. It determines the dates of the Jewish holidays, the appropriate Torah portions for public reading, Yahrzeits (the date to commemorate the death of a relative), and the specific daily Psalms which some customarily read.

Two major forms of the calendar have been used: an observational form used prior to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, and based on witnesses observing the phase of the moon, and a rule-based form first fully described by Maimonides in 1178 CE, which was adopted over a transition period between 70 and 1178.

The "modern" form is a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar. Because of the roughly 11 day difference between twelve lunar months and one solar year, the calendar repeats in a Metonic 19-year cycle of 235 lunar months, with an extra lunar month added once every two or three years, for a total of 7 times per 19 years.

So in practical terms, 7 times every 19 years we have a Jewish leap year, where we add in an extra month (Adar I and Adar II instead of just Adar). Adar is the month of one of our festivals (Purim), so in a leap year, this is always celebrated in Adar II

Our months go: (i'll write the months they approximately occur in)

Nissan (April)
Iyar (May)
Sivan (June)
Tammuz (July)
Av (Aug)
Ellul (Sept)
Tishrei (Sept/Oct)
Marcheshvan, shortened to Cheshvan (Oct)
Kislev (Nov)
Teves (Dec/Jan)
Shevat (Feb)
Adar (March)

The months can be like one month (Gregorian) either side of this. AT the moment we are 1/2 way through Tishrei, but sometimes it doesn't start until Oct, depending on leap years etc. The months are either 29 or 30 days long.

The actual arthimetic on how they fixed the calender is very interesting but very complicated! But it means that i could look up when any holidays will fall, be it 100 or 1000 years from now.

Hope that helps.

The Islamic calender is a purely lunar calender yeh?

[Heaven]

Thanks for that information Yael. Very interesting.
I have a question for Yael and Dachlostar, or anyone else who knows the answer.
I know muslim people pray a certain number of times a day. Are these always at the same time and saying the same thing? Why is this? Do you also have your own prayers you say? And what about in Judaism? I think you have lots of set prayers too, are you required to do certain daily prayers?
Wow, lots of questions, lol. Thanks guys.

[Indadhanu]

Well, I've red through 19 pages of threads.

I am a Buddhist... associated with a majorly Mahayanan Tibetan temple/monastery, so don't really know where I fit in this conversation... so I haven't said anything, as I'm not sure where exactly I would fit.... it does seem to be very focus on Christianity and a belief God. But I was really excited about a religion thread because I really love (respectfully) discussing religion. All religions, as I have always been interested, and learnt a lot when trying to work out where exactly I fit in the scheme of faith and spirituality.

But I really don't have a lot to contribute I guess, but I really wanted to say I'm extremely impressed by the compassion and tolerance everyone has displayed I've never seen a more civilised and open-minded conversation about religion!!!!!

I guess I can say a few things... I studied science for 3 years at uni before deciding I was interested, but not enough to want to work (lol, yep, 3 years) and didnt really major but dabbled in chemistry, biology, and biomedical science.

Science really helps compliment my faith... I think they don't have to be separate. For me they are interrtwined, and it actually deepened my faith even more. I learnt a lot about evolution, and I believe in evolution, it seems to work (in my mind) and makes more sense than creationism (again, thats just what I believe).

As for which festival/celebration I enjoy most... I enjoy them all... but I especially like Visakah Puja, which is the Buddha's Birthday Celebration (first full moon in May). Lots of fun!

Buddhist have a lot of holy days though. Most of them, bar a few, and about prayer, meditation, and listening to talks about the Dharma and other scriptures. We give offerings to the temple/moanstery, or to the needy, and sometimes we feast.
I am struggling to name any that officially involve giving gifts .... oh, Magha Puja, or Sangha, Day you can give gifts sometimes...

Ummmm..... we have holy days, a few each week, that depend on the lunar calendar, but they aren't like celebrations... more like a Christian going to Church for Sunday or somethng like that. 3/4 Precept days, and 4 Puja days. Which are about prayer and meditation, and preept days are reaffirmation of faith (basically).

Well, I'll stop rambling... I found something to contribute!

Oh, I forgot to mention... in addition to holy days each month, we have inauspicious days... like...
days where we can't strt a new business activity, no community events, no funerals, cremations, memorias or wakes, no inviting guests for a party, no starting to build a ew house, no medical procedures, no weddings, and also unfavourable days combining Earth, Air, Water and Fire elements...

Its not exactly "law", but more like guidelines... Though I like to keep them.
It does make doing assisted conception difficult!!! Especially since no medical procedures on days 4, 8, 11, 15, 18,22,25,29 of every Tibetan month... The IUI hasn't fallen on it yet, so it habn't been an issue...!!!!!

[Phteven]

In regards to the calender the Islamic calender is a purely lunar calender which means that by the Gregorian calender it falls back 10 or 11 days every year (ie if Ramadan 1st is the 18th of october one year then the next year it is the 10th of october). I like the way it moves around because it means that over my lifetime I can celebrate all the differant Islamic occasions at differant times of the year. A month is from the sighting of the cresent moon until the sighting of the next cresent moon. There is quite alot of dispute in the Muslim community about whether a month should always be based upon the actual sighting of the moon or upon predicted sighting. Lots of people prefer the predicted sighting because it allows things to be more structured; calenders can be printed a year in advance, venues can be booked months in advance, council permits are easier to obtain if you say we want to block the street of on this date instead of saying we want to block the street off on this date maybe if the moon is sighted. Whilst I prefer to follow moon sightings I'm fairly relaxed about following predicted dates.
The first year of the Hijri calender was 622 by the Gregorian calender. It was the year that Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers moved from Mecca to Medina. In Mecca they were a minority group and persecuted but in Medina they established the first Muslim community. The current Islamic year is 1428 AH.

With 2 calenders I can have 2 birthdays every year lol. I think that next year both my birthdays are within a day or 2 of each other.
DH gets 3 birthdays because he comes from Afghanistan where they have a Persian calender as well. The New Year is on the equinox.

SaraJane, re the 5 prayers, they are at set times every day but the times are based on the position of the sun and moon. So for example, the time for the noon prayer is sometime between when an object's shadow is almost non-existant until it's shadow reaches it own length.As well as the 5 obligitory prayers one usually makes a personal prayer at the end and there are also extra optional prayers.
Prayer is regarded as the second most important of the 5 pillars of Islam. In a Muslim communityy most of the day is ordered around prayer times and on Friday when the noon payer is performed usually the whole city just comes to a stand-still.

[Heaven]

Wow, 5 times in a day, I can see why things are usually structured around prayer. Does everyone do all 5? Is it hard to try and fit that in with work, school, etc. And can you do it anywhere?
P.S. very cute about Yasin's ramadan task!!

[Phteven]

Most people try and do all 5 but I find the dawn prayer pretty hard even though it only takes 5 minutes and I go straight back to bed.
Yes, you can do it anywhere. Most people don't find it all that hard to fit in with the rest of thier life. It takes about the same as time fitting in smoking or a few cups of tea every day - actually I think it would take less time than smoking....
There are usually only 2 that fall within regular business hours so they don't impact much on things like school and work.

These are the times of the prayers.
Fajr (فجر) Dawn to sunrise
Dhuhr (ظهر) After true noon until Asr
Asr (عصر) Mid-afternoon until sunset
Maghrib (مغرب) After sunset until dusk
Isha'a (عشاء)Dusk until dawn

As you can see with some of them there is a really wide time-frame to work within.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Alisia, I'm a scientist who doesn't like the lab too!

One thing that has always put me off Buddhism (not meaning that to sound bad) is the state of Nirvana - I just don't like the belief that our highest state of being is nothingness. I do understand controlling emotions, but to aim to feel nothing... I was going to ask why God gave us emotions, both happy and sad ones, but that isn't a Buddhist belief so really stupid of me! Without being disrespectful, may I ask how you feel about this? And also about Karma - I just hate the thought that people deserve everything. I know horrid people who are happy, healthy and enjoying themselves (heck, we all know our own MiLs LOL - I actually like mine) and have friends and family I love die in such pain... I just can't believe they deserve that!

But then, I like the idea of we are judged truely after death and going to Heaven, which explains my initial religious choice before I became a Christian: if I prefered Nivana and karma as spiritual philosphies I'd probably have looked into becoming Buddhist!

[Heaven]

It takes about the same as time fitting in smoking or a few cups of tea every day

Good point, I guess it's not that hard then! Especcially when it's not an exact time for each of them. And you have to face towards Mecca? How on earth do you know which way that is? Oh, I guess it's just a direction, lol, silly me.
I remember at my uni they had a special room where muslim people could go to pray. I hope they have these in workplaces too.

[Jennifer13]

Alisia, thanks for contributing. I was really interested to read about your beliefs. I have a few questions if you don't mind answering them.

What do you do to celebrate your holy days, particularly the most important, like Buddha's birthday?

Do you worship at a temple often? How many other Buddhists are there where you live? And what does your temple do for a service?

I'd also love it if you could explain the Buddhist view of karma, because I'm guessing it isn't as simplistic as the one we commonly believe!

Thanks for popping in, it's great to have some variety in our religious discussion.

[Heaven]

I agree. We haven't talked about Buddhism yet, so thankyou!!

[Bathsheba]

Just wanted to say that I'm still keeping up with this thread, still enjoying it and welcome new posters Starbright and leasha your contributions have been really interesting, thankyou

[Phteven]

SaraJane, Mecca is north west from Australia (although I'm not sure about Western Australia) so it's just a matter of figuring that out. It's usually pretty easy because you can just do it by the sun or use your watch and the sun if you want to be extra precise. At night you can use the Southern Cross to locate south and then establish your direction from that. One of the things I like about Islam is that because of needing to know time and direction for prayer it keeps you in touch with natural rythms.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about karma too