Goodbye little Caterpillar

:

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It quite possibly is just the process of moving on, and while I know I'm pretty ok now, I know that when we get to trying again I'm going to have a lot of stuff to deal with then.
BW

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I think we will never know how one day would differ from another...just like we will never be able to know what life could brings on...I was absolutely fine yesterday but this morning on the way walking to the bus stop, a voice in my head trying to convince myself 'ah, not pregnant anymore' made me suddenly remembered those mornings that the voice was saying 'ah, I can't believe Im pregnant'...those thoughts just crushed me, I have tears in my eyes for rest of my journey to work...

I am sure we will have lot of stuff to deal with when we are ready to try again, but at least we can lean on each other to get through this...one step at a time...

BW, I have just received a pathology bill around $185, it says 'investigating tissue taken from surgery', I assume it would be from the fetus...sounds like very similar to yours...

I am so sorry for your loss BW
hugs to you and your partner

BeiBei, you have no idea just how much it helps to have someone walking such a similar path to mine. In fact, you probably do. I'm just so tired I can barely string a coherent sentence together. I think part of it comes from the fact that it took so long to accept and believe that I was pregnant, much of the time I felt like it was all happening to someone else, so now it's very easy to believe that the miscarriage happened to someone else and I was never really pregnant at all - it really was the great big cosmic joke I thought it was.

I go back to see the FS tomorrow, and I'm feeling very jittery about it all. I'm looking at my list of questions, and I know there's so much more that I want to ask... I think I'll stay home from bible study tonight to rest up and talk it all through with DH before we go.

Thank you all once again for your tremendous support.

BW

BW...wishing you the very best for your FS appointment tomorrow...

I hope and pray that your FS will answer your questions and truly look into things for you...

I hope that tonight you can rest and the jitters can subside...

Take care chickie!

best of luk for tomorrow hun

Oh, BW, I do know...it may sound funny, but it feels like I am partly living your life as well...like tomorrow is a big day for me, wondering what you would hear from your FS...apart from all the tragedy, its truely a blessing to have someone along side of you to walk the journey...like we can even compare bills so we can abuse them if they overcharged us...:lol:

Have a nice evening in and ask all the questions you want and hopefully tomorrow's appointment will answers all the logical part of why this happened...

I'm just getting ready for work now...

Last night I wrote out all the questions I had for DH, and we talked about them. I still feel like there's others that I've had, but have forgotten. So I read through this thread again...

14 pages! (ETA - 15 now!) It's been quite a journey, but it's been good to remind myself of the progress I have made. And many, many thanks to those who have walked this path with me.

I'm still feeling quite jittery - and because it's the athletics carnival I won't be able to pop onto BB to calm down and check on things during the day. I also have acupuncture tonight, so I can't see myself getting home until around 8. It's going to be quite hard to debrief during the day as I need it.

Would appreciate the thoughts and prayers of everyone - I think it's going to be a rough day.

BW

I'll be thinking and praying for you BW. :hug:

You've come SO far hun. Don't write today off yet, i'm praying it will suprise you. :)

Love and strong, calm vibes

Bx

Thinking of you today, BW, and hoping you remember all of the other qns you need to ask. Maybe if you think about what you're going to type/write when you de-brief as it happens during the day that will help.

Good luck today BW, i hope that you get some of your questions answered and that things go well. Thinking of you.
Mel

i've been thinking of you all morning BW - i know today is probably going to be emotionally draining, but as you yourself have admitted, you've come a very long way. be gentle on yourself hun - will be looking for your update when i get home tonight

i am so very sorry to hear about your loss. Take care of your self my thoughts are with you and your family

I hope today went OK BW and you got some answers to at least some of your questions.

have been thinking about you today BW. i hope your appointment went well and you got some answers and support to put your mind at ease

draining was one way to describe it... will update later.

going to bed with a massive migraine headache.

BW

Glad to see you survived it anyway, BW. Hope your migrane goes away very soon.

sleep well BW

It's hard to know where to start...

If I had walked in and the FS had simply asked me if I was ready to do another cycle yet, I would have honestly answered no.

Yesterday was the school athletics carnival - our appointment got pushed back an hour because he was running late, and we still ended up waiting for over half an hour after we arrived anyway. I was hot, tired, frazzled, and very, very stressed because I was afraid that the FS would simply talk about head stuff and ignore the fact that I'm wanting to rule out any physical reason for the miscarriage.

Sadly, the appointment was everything I was afraid it would be. Something I would have freely admitted myself was absolutely bludgeoned into my brain, and I feel almost as though he's actually set me back in terms of the process of me picking myself up and being able to move on.

The pathology testing that was done was just to confirm that it wasn't a molar pregnancy. Nothing else was checked. I managed to ask about the spotting with reducing the prednisone dosage and he insists that it's completely irrelevant and coincidental and nothing at all to be concerned about. Despite the fact that DH actually said that at this point in time I seem happier and seem to be coping better with life than I did 12 months ago, the FS considers that the anxiety/depression I suffer from is so bad that putting an embryo back now would be a complete waste of an embryo. He also thinks that I'm at such a high risk of post-natal depression that if I did end up having a baby now I'd probably end up killing it. He said that part of the reason I don't have regular cycles is because of the way my brain works.

Basically, I ended up walking out in tears of frustration. He's so hell-bent on the fact that this miscarriage was caused by a freak chromosomal abnormality (with no actual proof of this) that he's completely refusing to entertain the possibility, however remote, that there could actually be a physical/biological problem here. He wants me to sort my head out without acknowledging the fact that ruling out the possibility that my body did something to kill this baby will actually help me move on and help me approach the next cycle with some degree of confidence and less stress.

I have a letter to take back to my GP (appointment Monday afternoon) to talk to him about things and see about being referred on to a psychologist. I've been lectured severely about adjusting my dose of my anti-depressent meds myself, despite the fact that this is a dosage I've been on before. Despite the fact that until I did so I was not sleeping and suffered from constant headaches.

The FS absolutely refuses to do another cycle with me until I've got my head sorted out and we need to go see him again before we can start another cycle. I'm wondering how I can ever convince him that I am doing better after this appointment. It was everything I was afraid of, nothing that I hoped it would be and felt like an all-out attack on my state of mind. I suspect that I'm going to be so afraid of the same thing happening next time that it's going to reduce me to a quivering wreck.

So... in short, I feel like I need the appointment with Dr S more than ever now. I'm not at all tempted to transfer to another clinic so that we can use the embryos we have, but I still believe that ruling out the possibility of other process going on in my body is important in me being able to move on from here and do another cycle.

From there it was straight to acupuncture and that's where the crying started... and didn't really stop until I knocked myself out with digesic and went to bed. It wasn't my normal acupuncturist (still away on holidays) and she doesn't know the full history of our fertility problems so she actually tried to tell me that we have a chance at natural conception in the mean time... ha!

The crying continued all through last night when I got home and was talking to DH about things. In the end it took some extremely strong pain killers and some aromatherapy oils to get me to relax enough to let the headache subside. Killer headache from crying so much, but the pain was so bad it was making me cry more. I did sleep... but I feel so much less able to face my work day than I did before that appointment.

To anyone who made it to the end of all that ramble... thank you! you deserve a medal!

BW

BW- i dont know what to say... sounds like you def didnt get the answers that you wanted from your FS. I dont understand why he didnt test the embryo for chromosomal abn....??? Why wasnt anything else checked? As for the anxiety and depression and that if you were preg, then you would prob end up killing the baby....gee i think i would have stormed out for sure. Your appt with Dr S is this week too isnt it? I hope maybe you will get more answers with him. Im sorry things havent worked and that you are unhappy. I hope Dr S can give you more.
Mel

oh BW I am so sorry for your pain and suffering. it is just awful what happened yesterday. multitude of hugs :hugs: to you (and your DH) if that can help at all.

thinking of you
dusty

YOU are the one who deserves a medal hun, for having to put up with that bull****!

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Despite the fact that DH actually said that at this point in time I seem happier and seem to be coping better with life than I did 12 months ago, the FS considers that the anxiety/depression I suffer from is so bad that putting an embryo back now would be a complete waste of an embryo. He also thinks that I'm at such a high risk of post-natal depression that if I did end up having a baby now I'd probably end up killing it. He said that part of the reason I don't have regular cycles is because of the way my brain works.

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WTF?!?!? How can any human justify saying that to you, to anyone, ESPECIALLY given what you've just been through. FOr a FS he sure doesn't seem to have much of a clue how it feels to have fertility issues! I'm aching for you BW, i'm horrified that he could have put you through that :( Also WHY does your FS think he knows you better than your DH? How did he come to that conclusion? Based on what, 3 hours a month with you, IF THAT!? Unbelievable.

You SEE Dr S and get the answers you need from someone who can give you them. It seems to me your FS is uppity because you want answers outwith his area of expertise and he's uncomfortable having to say "i don't know". The truth is NO-ONE knows, YET, why the caterpillar had to go. And your FS MIGHT be right, but you need to KNOW that, not just think it or hope it. You do what you need to do to feel ok to go on, and then you go on. Ignore this man and his unhelpful "opinions". If people's mind's played such a huge part in their fertility he'd be out of a bloody job wouldn't he!? What an idiot. He might be a great FS, but his bedside manner sure leaves a lot to be desired.

Shore up your defences hun. You're mind is beautiful. The anxiety is extremely justified, you are not causing this. I agree that you could do with being less stressed but i think keeping away from your FS for a while would be the best first step!

Oh sweetheart. I feel so far away and useless. I'm thinking of you and praying for you lots.

:hugs:

Bec

BW you are an amazingly strong woman who is surviving and moving forward. I agree with the other ladies. It definetely sounds like you didn't get your answers yesterday. While I wasn't there and haven't met your FS he doesn't sound like the nicest or most supportive person with fertility issue which is incredibly surprisng considering his speciality.
I really hope that your appt with Dr S gives you some answers.
Sending you heaps of hugs and please know that you are in our thoughts and prayers.

Oh BW, I am so upset for you... It seems everything you expected at that appointment happened. While depression in the past is a risk factor for PND, which I know since I suffered from depression for some years quite a while ago, all it should mean is that they keep an eye on you (after birth), not that they make you feel WORSE by telling you you'll get it, when you are still trying to get pg. I didn't get PND, so it doesn't happen to everyone. I think Bec is right on the money, he's uncomfortable with what he doesn't know.

Even if you do stay with the same clinic, is it possible to see another FS after you see Dr S? I would have assumed you have the right. I wouldn't be embarrassed about seeking a second opinion - you weren't treated very well.

Incidentally, why couldn't you use your snowbubs if you were at another clinic? Surely they're still yours?

I hope your headache clears today and you cope at school okay. Thinking of you...

Wrote a long post earlier... lost it...

We do have the option of moving the embryos to another clinic and using them that way, but I'm not inclined to do so. I know that my FS is right - I'm not ready to go again yet. Simple fact. I'm happy with the protocols that the current FS uses, and I suspect he's one of very few who actually uses the medication that has worked for me - I'm not happy to go with medicated cycles, I don't go well with clomid, I don't want to run the risk of hyperstimulating again...

However when I'm told "you don't need the answers, you just think you do", I do get really frustrated. Sure, I may not find it helpful, but that's something I need to discover for myself.

We'll go see Dr S and try to get the physical causes for miscarriage ruled out. I'll go see my GP and talk about whether the depression/anxiety is appropriate considering circumstances or whether it is out of hand and I do need to go see a psychologist. I'm hesitant to take that step unless we can find a good psychologist who is also a christian. I'm not going to let someone interfere with my thought processes unless they share my faith.

Funnily enough, despite the FS turning around and saying "you know you're paying me to be a complete a**hole to you right now", I'm not at all inclined to change.

I am worried that the fear of another appointment like yesterday will have me so on edge that he won't be able to see any progress in my state of mind next time we go back. DH says I don't need to worry because if I reach the point where I'm ready to go again I won't have that fear, but I can't see it ever going.

Headache has gone, I'm getting through my day ok, I think I'm actually at peace with events yesterday. Although it wasn't pleasant, it was partly what I needed. I'll get the other part of what I needed elsewhere, and then we'll go back. I am incredibly tired - it's been a long week already and I'm physically as well as emotionally exhausted.

I'm not sure if any of this makes any sense, or whether I just sound like more of a fruit loop than before.

BW

BW, you know I think the world of you and admire your strength and the courage you've shown throughout the whole ordeal of trying to have a baby. I just wanted to say that upfront. BUT (and I might become extremely unpopular for saying this) I do think that your FS has your best interests at heart and I do agree with a lot of what he's said. Yes, it is his job to get you pregnant, but it is also his job to monitor your emotional and mental state and to decide how both of those things may impact on your treatment and a possible pregnancy.

You know that when we lost our little angel I was in a very bad way mentally and emotionally for quite a while. I did go to see a psychologist and the first thing she told me was that it would be a very bad idea to go into a new pregnancy feeling the way I did. I think there is a lot of truth in that, and I know that you have said you aren't ready yet yourself. Pregnancy after a loss is hard. We both know that women who have suffered a loss or who have undergone AC (and unfortunately we fall into both of those categories - lucky us :rolleyes:) are at an increased risk of post natal depression. I think it is waaaaay over the top for your FS to claim you WOULD get it, but it is something to be considered nonetheless.

I do completely understand your need to KNOW why you lost your caterpillar but I am worried that if you pin too much hope on that happening, you may end up very disappointed. The sad fact is most of us will never know what happened or why it happened. Yes, it is a great idea to go and talk to Dr S and get his opinion based on your medical history, and I support you 100% in doing that, but I don't want you to be terribly disappointed if he cannot give you the answers. While I acknowledge that our situations are very different, I have discussed my m/c with him several times and while he has his suspicions about what happened, no one can ever tell me for sure, not even him. I do completely understand that you need to hear what he has to say and to rule out any physical reasons before you can move forward and like I said, I support you 100% in this.

I'm also glad that you're not going to change clinics. While your FS' bedside manner has left a lot to be desired at times, I do think he is genuinely concerned for your overall well being, not just getting you pregnant, and that's the way it should be.

I hope that seeing Dr S can give you what you need to feel better and to feel in control of the situation again so that you can move forward to another cycle soon.

I am truly sorry that you are having such an awful time with this. I wish it were easier for you and I hope I haven't said anything to upset you further. Big, big :hug:

Willow, I absolutely agree with everything you said - it's like you just took the jumbled thoughts out of my head and expressed them in an eloquent fashion that I'm just too tired to do myself right now.

I know I may not ever get answers - but I need to at least look for them. If I get there, the fact that I have searched for the answers will make it easier for me to move on, rather than being told that there may be no answers and having to accept that without proof. I need to eliminate that possibility.

I think I know deep down that the current FS is the one for me, I do need the head stuff to be dealt with as part of all this. I just don't know if other doctors are as focussed on it as this guy is. In my dealings with him, I do miss what I have with both my GP and my rheumy - acceptance that I am an intelligent person and that I know when things aren't right in my body, and that I get a say in all decisions regarding my treatment... If I need to get that part of it from a visit with another doctor, then I will.

I think my brain has degenerated into babble once more so I'll stop now. There's a mad jumble of thoughts and feelings here that need to get out - I'm just exhausted physically and emotionally right now so it's not happening too well.

BW

OMG BW this is all just too much! I am so sorry you have been through such an ordeal...losing your baby was enough already!You impress me no end that you are moving forward doing what's right for you...truely amazing. I wish there was something I could do to help...all I can do is be here and hope that all the positive energy we are all sending your way gets to you...here's hoping that DrS can give you the answers you need.Take care hun xxx

BW - when i read your first post from today, my first reaction was "what a pr*ck!" (and that was polite compared to what DH said) - but reading it again, i think i'm in a similar mindset to Willow - there are a hell of a lot of emotional issues that you need to be able to deal with, as well as the physical, before you can move forward fully. YES, getting a consultation with Dr S is a big step, but i believe this in itself is more for the mental than the physical - there's a large chance nothing more will come out of this appointment than for you to become comfortable with the fact that there's nothing physically that you can change - and that is a very important step to your healing and moving forward to your next FET.

i agree with the others that your FS has a terrible bedside manner, and he could have worded things a whole lot better than he did, but i do think he has your best interests at heart and wants to help you through this

i hope with all my heart that you can find a counsellor who shares your faith and can be the support you need through this. as much as we're all 110% here for you, we're not professionals, we don't necessarily share your faith - and we can only be a sounding board for you.

there is so much more running through my head that i want to say right now, and i want nothing more than to make this right for you - you are such a beautiful and strong person, and it breaks my heart to know how much you're hurting hun. i just don't think i can spit out my thoughts as eloquently as willow has!

take care hun - you know where i am if you need to talk - about anything

BG

What an appointment BW!
I can understand what the girls have said about your FS being right (in some ways), but also understand what you said here

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I know I may not ever get answers - but I need to at least look for them. If I get there, the fact that I have searched for the answers will make it easier for me to move on, rather than being told that there may be no answers and having to accept that without proof. I need to eliminate that possibility.

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A quote I like, "Knowledge is power, Information is liberating" I hope you can get some answers to give you the power to move on BW. In the meantime, we are all here to lend an ear and a cyber shoulder. :)

Also, would you church be able to help with suggesting a psychologist?

Lots of hugs,

Nic

We do actually have some councellors at church - not sure how I feel about seeing them as both of them have daughters that I'm good friends with, and I think it would be difficult to view it as a professional relationship. My GP is actually a Christian as well, which has been helpful in the past, so I'm sure he'd be able to suggest someone that will suit me and won't go trampling all over my beliefs.

In some ways, I suspect that if my FS hadn't been as hard on me as he was yesterday I might be tempted to go back before I'm really ready. I think the fear of having him poke holes in any defences I may put up will actually make sure I really am ok before we go back.

Could there have been a gentler way to do this? I don't know, really. Yes, it was painful, exhausting and extremely frustrating. But it I know that it was in my best interests, it was necessary, and I think in many ways will ultimately be useful.

How I wish for the ability to write and speak clearly right now!

BW

BW, that's great that your GP may be able to suggest someone that will suit you :)

Nic

BW, I'm glad you're not upset with me hun, that was the last thing I wanted to do!!

Can I suggest one thing though? Don't make the mistake I did, make sure if you do see a counsellor or psychologist that they are trained specifically in this area. I don't think it's something that just anybody can understand, let alone 'treat'. I know that you would prefer to see someone who shares your faith, but try to find someone that works specifically in this area also if you can. I think if i'd known to do that, it would have made the world of difference to my 'recovery' (which to be honest, is still an ongoing process!).

Hey BW...so sorry to hear about your appointment yesterday...

I think Willow has written some amazing posts...and I must say I agree with her...both regarding the emotional issues and seeing a counsellor who specialises in this area...

As you know, I'm a Christian...and I also work in the area of mental health. I'm a huge believer in finding a counsellor that you relate to as well as someone who is competent and professional. Your GP sounds like a great resource and someone who should be able to refer you to someone who is really going to make a difference.

As I was reading your post about yesterday's appointment, a saying kept going through my head. It's one that an old pastor of mine often quoted..."you need to eat the chicken and spit out the bones". It's a saying that I use so much in my own life...especially when a message is delivered in such a horrible way...

Take care chickie...I'm definitely thinking and praying for you.

:

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"you need to eat the chicken and spit out the bones"

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Monnie - I love that! That is brilliant. I'll have to remember that one.

Willow, you've been such a support to me for such a long time, and I know the heart behind your words. I know you mean well and have my best interests at heart so that even if something you said stings a bit (and it didn't), I would know you weren't trying to hurt me and would look deeper... A little bit scary that you seemed to be able to pluck the thoughts out of my head and make some sense of them, and I thank you for that.

Now, do you think I can have my brain back? :p Between you and BG it seems I can never be sure just who has custody of my brain cells at any particular moment, but it is absolutely fantastic to have friends such as the two of you who can help me sort out my thoughts and help me find a way through to clarity and calm once more.

Monnie, I too love your saying. I guess I do tend to choke on the bones a bit, getting caught up in an emotional response to things and it's only later that I can sort through things and find my way through to what the FS was trying to tell me.

I do know one thing... the harsh reality of yesterday's appointment and the fear of the FS having another go at me when we go back is going to stop me from trying to go back before I really am ready.

Strange how last night I saw myself being put back so far - I saw the point where I could go back and try again being unreachably far away. Tonight, it feels closer than ever. I know there's stuff I've got to sort through between now and then, but it feels like reaching that point is a real possibility now while last night I felt like I'd never get there.

BW

BW - I have been off line due to a computer shortage in my house (long story :rolleyes:) but I am still here with you and I am continually amazed by your forward progress, even if you feel like it is often backwards. Personally, I would have killed the FS (he was, after all, going to be mine too!!) as I don't tolerate being treated like an unintelligent person and having my valid questions rejected. However, if you believe he has your best interests at heart (despite his less than appealing delivery) then I am happy. Just make sure you stay happy with his ability to provide the best care for you.

I am so pleased you have the ongoing support of so many and you know where to get me if I am not on line. Make sure you are looking after yourself :hug:

Butterfly, what is important is that you are happy. I personally wouldn't be happy with someone who spoke to me that way.
It may be so that you need some help to sort through the emotional stuff etc etc. I think that is really really important. It is true that depression and anxiety gives a predisposition to post natal depression. To suggest though that you would develop post natal psychosis and harm your child is really going out on a limb (imo). I really think that is an outrageous and harmful claim to make.
I would certainly see a counsellor. Most good clinics will have one working there. I actually feel sure that if you contact ivf Sydney (where gavin is based) they would be able to give you some contacts. You imo need to speak to someone who understands the ins and outs of infertility and it's pains. Just a regular counsellor may not be so helpful. Just like the best place to take the car to get the electricals seen to may not be a general mechanic... iykwim

Keep an open mind butterfly until you see Gavin. I would be shocked if he spoke to you this way...
This person has to travel a very emotional and difficult journey with you. Make a list of what you want in a care provider. Does this guy fit the bill? This is your gig. You are paying the big money. There is more to a care provider than his/her knowledge. We need to feel treated with respect and intelligence. We need to feel that are fears and concerns are heard. If you feel this way then well and good but do ask yourself these questions.

This person will travel your pregnancy with you, you need much much compassion and caring as well as top notch skills.

This is a flying visit but I wanted to respond. I will come back this afternoon.
I am sending you much love and hugs my love... :hug:

BW i'm glad to see you're feeling more positive about things already - you're SOME woman hun :)

I guess it comes down to individuals, the PND thing did disturb me the most, BUT that's because my mother told me repeatedly i'd get PND and then died before i got PG and i fretted and fretted. But then on the other hand i was very careful with myself and proactive about avoiding it so i guess there was a silver lining. My mother would always tell me "you have to hurt to heal" and i guess that's true.

Though it's hard having to sort through stuff before you can go again, knowing WHAT that stuff is, being able to put a name to your obstacles, means you're already halfway over them.

:hug:

Bx

:hug: No words can take away your pain. Life is unfar some times.

Little bit of an explanation... I don't think my FS has crossed the line or done anything wrong here. I know that I had an initial response to what was said that was highly emotional, and that I probably took things at the time to be a little more hurtful than they were intended. I know this is what DH thinks and he was in the room at the time. In hindsight, I agree. He actually even shared aspects of his own life which explain to me just why he's so insistant that I get this sorted. I won't go into details, but he has seen first hand what can happen when this sort of thing is not dealt with.

Now that the emotional response is over and I've done my hurting, venting and crying I'm actually much more able to deal with the things that were said in a rational manner. I know that he was absolutely correct in what he said, and that if he had not done it in such a forceful manner, it probable would not have been at all effective.

I don't like subtle - I appreciate honesty and directness in my medical practicioners and while my other doctors (GP and rheumy) are more gentle, I honestly don't think the gentle approach would have worked this time. Sometimes I need a sledgehammer to the head to get something, and I've seen this a lot in the past when my mental health has become an issue.

I guess where we are at now is that I'm still in a position that I trust my FS. I may not agree with him in regards to the further testing, but I'm exploring other avenues for that anyway. He may frustrate the crap out of me, but I do know that he has my health and wellbeing in mind, and that he's not going to give me false hope.

Having been in the position before where I have sought help from a doctor with regards to my depression and been fobbed off, I certainly do appreciate the fact that I've got a doctor on my side now who won't let it go untreated and ignored any longer. I know I'm not going to be tempted to go back and try again before I really am ready to do so. I know that my FS will see straight through any facade I can put up. I know that all of this is for the best in the end. Happy, healthy mum = happy, healthy baby... and isn't this what it's all about?

I'm happy with the decision to return to the current FS after consulting with Dr S. I don't know if other FSs focus on the head stuff like mine does, but I certainly do know for a fact that this is something I need.

BW