I completely agree with you Niliac - its not necessarily for everyone, my concern is the negative spin that this form of sleep training has been given to the point that if it is mentioned its kinda taboo. Each child is different yes but I have to disagree with "some kids sleep, some don't" but yes, I agree that you do need to work with the personalities you have in each child and find the most effective method to teach the child the art of sleeping.
I don't believe we give bubbies enough credit as to how smart they truly are........they certainly work out quickly enough how to get attention to be picked up and cuddled - which of course is so not wrong! However, not practical if they are demanding this 24/7 and so taxing on their mummies and daddies.....as is the case here. I guess the trap to avoid is simply transferring one frustration into another by teaching the child a new form of sleeping that still relies heavily on mummy and daddy, therefore leaving the parents with still no release iykwim?
I believe our success with it was because we coupled it with routine - predictability on both sides. I believe that there's confidence and security in knowing what is coming next for both the baby and the parents.
I don't think children learn they are going to be picked up, it is actually a well documented instinctual reaction for a baby to cry like any other reflex. It dates back to caveman days and when a baby was "abandoned" or something happened to the babies carer they would cry till someone would find them before a tiger or predator did. Children do not have the perception of object permanence (this means that when something disappears from view, they have no concept that it may still be near) till they are around 8 months old, which is one of the reasons why most child professionals do not recommend CC before 8 months as you are interfering with a natural instinct that is part of growth and learning (it has also been linked to Reactive Attachment Disorder). They have said this can lead to a perpetual feeling of abandonment. If you get a chance look up Reactive Attachment Disorder, there is a website with a video (which I can't find but if I do I will post it) that discusses how CC does cause a form of RAD in some babies. As for picking them up I very rarely picked up my son to comfort him yet I still went with him and stayed with him to comfort him whenever he cried as a baby. But had he been a child that needed to be picked up I would have. Having done both forms of settling I feel that whilst the comfort method is more involved to begin with I had way less relapses than I did with CC and my own emotional well being, as well as my child's, was better off. However, this is my own experience and I am not saying it is everyones.
But back on topic though, with the wrapping Seth and Paris both cracked it initially with regards to wrapping but they went to sleep a lot quicker and also slept better when wrapped. Just keep trying different things hon, and remember what may work one day may not the next. Its all relative to where they are development wise, wind, teething, sickness this all plays a part as well as over stimulation and missing the sleep cues even by a second either side of tired and overtired. Some babies are just more sensitive than others, and even though it drives you insane it does get easier. And remember no one is going to hate you if you need a breather and if that means you holler out to someone to help or put bubs in the pram and go for a walk so you can regain some sanity and keep going then do it. I would highly recommend getting a copy of "The Wonder Weeks" as it definitely makes it a lot easier to cope with if you can understand what's going on with them.
I never really understood how self-settling is supposed to work with a baby that doesn't like a dummy. And isn't having the dummy meaning its actually dummy-settling rather than self-settling? How is that different to being rocked? Is it only that you can insert dummy and walk away rather than spending time rocking?
leebee - pretty much. But as I said before, I can't cuddle DS to sleep every time. If he will settle with the dummy it makes things a bit easier for me.
I have 2 other kids to think about. He usually doesn't really like the dummy when sleepimg, & will sometimes settle without it. He doesn't go to sleep with it in very often. He migh go to sleep with it occasionally at night, but doesn't use it for the rest of the night.
I think I'm going to get out of this convo. I'm having a hard time with DS atm, & I've tried & am still trying everything. Everytime he is due for a sleep its hell. I go with whatever works at the time. I might leave him to grizzle, I might walk out when he won't stop screaming - I usualy get as far as the door & have to go back.
I personally though would not be able to rock a rocker non stop. I even think pushing a pram is easier. Babies are hard work. If you have to walk from one end of the house to the other for an hour, do it. God knows I've done a fair few hours of it myself. But when you are dead on your feet, sometimes you just can't do it like that anymore.
Sure the swings & hammocks sound great, but I personally can't afford a swing & living in the crap town I live in, I got no chance of finding a hammock.
Nearly everytime DS goes down, he falls asleep a different way.
Bjrose, I didn't mean to offend - I was just honestly a bit perplexed about it. Oliver won't take a dummy but the dummy is whats always discussed when people talk about self settling and no-one ever seems to talk about what to do without one. I feed to sleep at the moment because its working best for us but thats not going to work forever and I'm not sure where to go next.
I know leebee. Sorry. I'm just having a really hard time atm.
My DD2 had colic & I was told to use a dummy to help her relieve the pain. She refused to take it & for about 6 weeks I only got 4 hours sleep a night. By 10 weeks it was about 6 hours. All I could really do was sit with her over my shoulder & cry while she cried til she finally went to sleep.
She would start crying at about 7 pm & within the first hour or 2 would be screaming. She would scream til 3am. Then DD1 would be awake at 7am.
She still can't get to sleep til after about 10pm. If she has a day sleep. If she doesn't she'll fall asleep too early.
Lol! This is certainly a topic that one must take the angle of agreeing to disagree
So still disagreeing but hey! If everyone agreed how boring would this world be?! Simply philosophical differences that we could all produce enough relevant research and theories to back our own sides!
So me: pro CC, as this is what its apparently being called - we have been able to teach our little ones to fall asleep on their own and sleep through the night at an early age and they are happy smart little vegemites and really when it comes down to it, settling is one small part of a large picture in which a child is moulded and nurtured as in, cc can not be wholly blamed for a child's somewhat timid, scared nature, as there are children not cc who are as well.
So finally, from me, whatever it takes to settle your child and maintain your own sanity, DO THAT!!! I will encourage consistency however as I believe babies thrive on predictability and stability. Whilst in the beginning it may not seem to be productive, what ever method one undertakes, it could take a couple of weeks before baby has fully learnt a new rhythm. oh and don't go it alone! Be on the same page as your partner, even get family on board so one can take a mental break if needed!!!!
MWA!!!
Again, respectfully disagreeing but I really don't think that it's possible to teach every single baby out there to sleep how YOU want them to. No offense Charly, but I think you may have gotten lucky with your kids that they were relatively easy to teach. I'm sure you won't agree with me there, but even paediatricians will say that sleep patterns in babies and young children are largely due to the child's temperament. The thing is, if we go around saying that it IS possible to teach all babies to sleep, what happens to the parents whose babies just won't do it? They end up feeling like a failure........"what's wrong with me? what's wrong with my baby? why won't s/he do what every other baby does?" Which is so incredibly sad. Babies, like adults, are individuals. And not all adults sleep that well, so why on earth should we expect babies to? They need MORE help than us, not less. And by help, I don't mean teaching. Charly, I'm not at all having a go at your parenting, I think it's great that your girls sleep so well, and that you're all happy. THAT is what matters. I just would hate for everyone to think that they can do the same.
Last edited by Janie; August 2nd, 2008 at 12:40 PM.
Janie, I respect your thoughts. I will admit to feeling irked at your comment:
"but I think you may have gotten lucky with your kids that they were relatively easy to teach."
as no one can assume that any ones ride to "sleeping cherubs" has been or is an easy one. Trust me - there were tears, sleepless times and ........as is obviously the same with many parents the world over trying to work out a sleepless babe.......but I had to see the bigger picture. I could certainly stop my child from fussing/crying/whinging/complaining by picking them up every time they made a sound etc..........but a rod for my own back I was not willing to make. I'd consider that in the grand scheme of things, in a few months time, persistence, patience and consistency will pay off, and it did. I am not suggesting to anyone that training a child to sleep is a sweet and dandy path.............I was no exception. I am simply sharing the rewards we have achieved through blood, sweat and tears. I did not get lucky with my children......I worked my butt off with a goal in mind, and the goal is what we achieved.
Charly, I am really glad that you had success and have peace with your decision. I have found that the gentle approach has worked wonders with my boys. Perhaps I have been lucky, but it is really great having kids that go to sleep easily and never having had to put up with the awful stress and distress of any form of CC (or whatever you want to call it).
This is a personal opinion, but I feel like we (as a society) are too busy in our lives to raise kids to be kids. Babies didn't used to need to be "trained" to sleep as there was a community to help out raising the child, and the parents didn't have to get up at 5am to go to work the next morning. It starts with trying to get a child to sleep through the night before they are biologically ready, and continues. Then it's "teaching" them to be good even when we've dragged them around the country side. Making them rush to get ready in the mornings. When do they just get to be kids and do things in their own time, as the individual people that they are? It is sad that society doesn't recognise the value in supporting parents to be parents. If it did, babies waking in the night would be tolerated, as it should be. And babies would be allowed to learn to sleep without having to upset themselves first. This is speaking very generally and is not talking about any specific situation.
I agree with you MR. If I had some support around - I have NONE at all, I would probably be way less stressed about the amount of sleep we get. I never get a break from my kids. I don't have anyone else to take Jaz to school so I can sleep just a bit longer. I have noone who can take Bri for the day while I catch up on sleep I didn't get the night before.
I don't really mind if Jesse wakes through the night if there are blocks of sleep in between. Every 1 - 2 hours just isn't enough & thats when I decided I needed to teach him to self settle. I don't care if he doesn't sleep through, but I know as he is my son that he's not getting enough sleep for him when he wakes like that through the night.
& I think babies do need to be taught to sleep. Weather it be CC or rocking, they still have to learn to go to sleep, otherwise they stay awake too long & get overtired & just get more upset. I've rocked my son for two hours without him going to sleep.
I've paced my lounge room for hours on end everynight with my DD2 when she suffered from colic & would cry til 3am. I was the one who had to teach her to go to sleep earlier. If I had've let her go to sleep when she was ready, she'd still be going to sleep at 3am. I've got her back to between 9 & 10pm. I'm happy with that for now, but I'll still have to get her ready for school in 18 months. Which will involve teaching her to go to bed even earlier.
We are responsible for our children. We have to teach them almost everything else, why not teach them to sleep better as well if we can?
I have a friend who's daughter used to sleep good at night. When her DF was working night shift, she'd wake the baby to keep her company. Her DD starts school next year & still goes to bed at 11pm. The same as when she was born.
OK. Sorry Ben, I said before I wasn't coming back in here. I should've stayed away. I really hope you've found something thats helping. My advise is to try anything you both agree on that works for you & Meg. Only you two can decide what will work & whats right for you guys.
- its not necessarily for everyone, my concern is the negative spin that this form of sleep training has been given to the point that if it is mentioned its kinda taboo. Each child is different yes but I have to disagree with "some kids sleep, some don't" but yes, I agree that you do need to work with the personalities you have in each child and find the most effective method to teach the child the art of sleeping.
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Simply philosophical differences that we could all produce enough relevant research and theories to back our own sides! 
........as is obviously the same with many parents the world over trying to work out a sleepless babe.......but I had to see the bigger picture. I could certainly stop my child from fussing/crying/whinging/complaining by picking them up every time they made a sound etc..........but a rod for my own back I was not willing to make. I'd consider that in the grand scheme of things, in a few months time, persistence, patience and consistency will pay off, and it did. I am not suggesting to anyone that training a child to sleep is a sweet and dandy path.............I was no exception. I am simply sharing the rewards we have achieved through blood, sweat and tears. I did not get lucky with my children......I worked my butt off with a goal in mind, and the goal is what we achieved.
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