Also my SIL was having a lot of trouble with her 2yo & went to a toddler sleep seminar. One thing they warned her about was over stimulation (eg. TV/movies/news programs) easily over stimulate toddlers & kids. It was suggested at least 30min quiet before bedtime.
I think that can be an issue here, we try to ditch the tv but sometimes the two of them just stimulate each other. I need to separate them, but don't really want to rely on screens. One of my friends (chippyrabbit!) bored them to sleep singing 100 green bottles. Maybe i should try that more often.

Last night went well, DS had a nap in the afternoon so i got to spend some time just with DD. Bit of fun (painting the cubby), bit of exercise, and she fell asleep on the couch with a heated blanket while i was feeding DS. Worked well, cos when i put DS to bed, he woke and i had to lay with him for awhile.

Thanks for all the ideas, i will find something that works here.