How to help her sleep longer at night?

[Snacks]

Hi Karina, thought I'd post because night-waking is always on my mind
I have always winged about Natalie's sleep patterns, and in hindsight, I had it soooo good until about 4 months. Then she started waking more frequently, say 3-5 times a night.
Here are some of my thoughts...
Firstly, I'm led to believe that often babies who sleep ok in their first months of life can become more wakeful at around 4 months. This leads me to think partly it is developmental, and certainly her pattern of night-waking has chopped and changed over this time, perhaps due to developments she was going through.
Secondly, you have my blessing to punch in the mouth anyone who seems incredulous at you feeding a 5 month old baby overnight. How utterly ridiculous. I'm told that 5-month-old babies who go to tresssillian residential sleep school still have a feed overnight. 5 months old is still very little. And I reckon people who say their baby slept through every night from their first night home from hospital are not being entirely truthful.
Thirdly, regarding associations with sleep and booby - definitely true IMO. Since I have stopped feeding Natalie to sleep, I think her sleeping pattern has improved. Her day sleeps tend to be longer if she self-settles, and I try to feed her at least 20mins before bedtime, and put her to bed awake to self-settle for the night. Sometimes she only goes for 2 hours, but sometimes she will go for 3.5-4 hours which is IMO great. (BTW, she didn't start to self-settle til about 5 months old, and only occasionally. It is only in the last couple of weeks that she'll self-settle for day sleeps more often than not. Before I used to pat her to sleep to settle her.) She will only settle with booby overnight tho. Part of me believes she is thirsty, but if I'm totally honest, I think she needs booby to get back to sleep. Not sure how to get through this...
Lastly, in regard to the day sleeping affecting night sleeping: I was a great sceptic! I had a thread not too long ago about this. However lately I have found it to be true to a point for us. If Natalie has two 2-2.5 hour sleeps in one day, she does tend to wake for a play in the night. However, if she has one 1 hour and one 2 hour sleep during the day, her night sleeping is as good as it gets. Today we were out most of the day, and she only had 10 mins this morning and 40 mins this afternoon She fell into bed at 6:30 (usual bedtime is 7) and woke up at 7:40, resettled herself after a minute or two, then woke for a feed (ie wouldn't settle herself) at 8:45. This is not particularly good for her, and I'm blaming it on the small amount of sleep she had today.
I know this is long-winded, and TBH probably more for my benefit than yours but know that you're not alone in having a wakeful baby. I'm lucky in that I am able to get to sleep easily after a night feed, so for me its a no-brainer. I just feed her. (I tried settling with cuddles for the first wake-up, which did work for a while, but no longer unfortunately.) For you, I can totally understand your frustration - having very little sleep overnight and not getting a decent nap out of her during the day in which to catch up on some zzz's yourself must be beyond exhausting. If I were in your position, sleep means that much to me that I would probably seek some help. Tressillian have a phone help-line and I have found them to be great on the two occasions I have phoned them. They have made some helpful suggestions.
Hoping you can find some resolution soon. Sleep deprivation sucks. All the best as you work it out.

[Mum2boy]

When Cooper was 8 weeks old, he started to sleep for 12 hours a night, and at 12 weeks, started to wake up once, then by the time he was about 5 months he was waking sometime 3 times a night. I also breastfed, and I also SO know what it feels like to be so exhausted like yourself.

This continued up until he was about 9 months. I tried everything - and was on the verge of going to Tresillian. I also rang them so many times, and they said it was most likely just behavioural. Plus he was average in weight, and I had plenty of milk, so I knew there wasn't a problem there.I tried control comforting which only worked for a few days (and I hated it)

I asked many people about whether formula may make a difference, and so many said no.

By the time he was 9 months, I was ready to stop breastfeeding, and as soon as he was on formula he started to sleep SOOO much better! He still liked a 10pm feed, but other than that, he stopped waking in the night.

Now saying that, I know every baby is different, but for us, formula made a difference. It is harder to digest, therefore keeps them fuller for longer.

TBH, had I known that was all it was, I would've either a. just kept breastfeeding and relaxed knowing it wasn't behavioural, or b. put him on formula if I was really desperate for sleep.

Hope this helps.

[Boo Boo]

Karina

I put Rylee on formula from about 10 months - in the last couple of weeks her sleeping has improved - the best has been last night she was unsettled till about 10 pm but then slept through until 5.20 am (so she went from 7 pm till 5.20 am without a feed) - this is the longest ever. I think previously IMO she had been waking for comfort feeds but now she knows she won't get booby anymore she only wakes when she really needs it....so a behavioural issue - now I don't want to say formula babies sleep better - I have heard all kinds of stories but my mum kept saying to me to just put her on formula and she will sleep better but I dug my heels in as I really wanted to keep bfing for as long as possible - but in Rylee's case she seemed to need booby for comfort. ONe of my girlfriends bubs is fully breastfed and she sleeps 12 hours a night so it is all just dependent on the individual bub.

Anyway, not that I have really helped you but just another angle I guess. These bubs are quirky little people aren't they.
Laurin

[Snacks]

I've heard the formula theory too. I have tried to introduce a formula feed before bedtime as the last feed of the day, also at the 9:30-10pm feed. She won't have it.
I suppose if I were desperate, I could wean her totally onto the bottle, by starving her until she takes it, but it would mean giving up breastfeeding for me, I think. I haven't been able to express for quite a while, so it'd mean either dried up boobs and/or mastitis in my case.
I just love the convenience and all the benefits of breastfeeding moreso than the chance that being formula fed will help her sleep, KWIM? That's my take on the issue... FWIW.
How has Claire's sleeping been this week?

[Karina]

I have heard the same thing about forumla, but I am a bit scared to try it incase she likes forumla better than my breast milk. I like breastfeeding her so I dont want to stop before I really need to..? I also talked to the ECHN and she seems to think that forumla wont her sleep longer and that its just a marketing thing from the forumla companies to try to get tired exhausted mums to buy their products!! LOL

Amy, I was so proud of Claire, she slept a whole 5 hours in one go the other night. All i did differently was to lay down in my bed with her and let her booby for as long as she wanted to (it was like an hour and a half!) then I stroked her tummy, and she slept for 5 hours. Dont know if I can do that every single night though!

[Snacks]

I am a bit scared to try it incase she likes forumla better than my breast milk. I like breastfeeding her so I dont want to stop before I really need to..?

I was pretty desparate, so I tried it even though I felt the same way. Turns out she doesn't like formula anyway. And because I don't want to give up breastfeeding yet, I'm not going to push the bottle on her. I totally understand where you're coming from there. If Claire's a real booby baby like Natalie, she'd probably be the same and not know what on earth to do with a bottle LOL. It is actually really funny to watch... Natty sort of chews on the teat and gets this startled look on her face when milk squirts into her mouth LOL, then she promptly spits it out and gives her hungry cry (as if to say, 'what the hell are you playing at, woman? Get your breasts out, for crying out loud!!!).
WTG Claire for sleeping 5 hours in a row!!! (You know in many peoples' books 5 hours is 'sleeping through'?) Did you get any sleep yourself, Karina? Or were you lying there waiting for her to wake up, LOL? I do hope it becomes a regular thing for you both.

[Karina]

Amy, i did get more sleep thn normal but I kept waking up!! Maybe becuse I am so used to frequently waking, i dont know. I kept waking up and waiting for her to wake too.

i now think it is just that she feels isolated when we're not with her. She sleeps much better with us in our bed and luckily hubby is happy for her to be there for the time being.

We have tried a bottle (of ebm, not formula) nd she just plays with it. She insists on holding it herself but then she'll just lick it and not suck it, or just hold it and look at dh. Maybe she just doesnt understand wht to do with it, mybe ebm that has been frozen and thawed tastes/smells differnt...

Sounds like Claire is booby baby like Natalie! How cute about her rection to bottles. She prefers it fresh from the tap lol.