HPV vax

[Hetty]

I wasn't trying to be rude, I think things can come across as more aggressive in text than they are. I was adding my opinion to the thread (I thought the thread was asking for opinions?). I think on this forum that everyone just agrees with everyone all the time, when someone doesn't agree it's "rude" or "arrogrant". I think that this vaccine, like almost all others, does much more good than harm. That's my opinion.

I don't think it causes all cervical cancers (just like there are lung cancers and throat cancers not caused by smoking) but I do think it causes the vast majority.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Just off to disagree with a doctor right now, so I am used to it. Which is why I'm aware I'm a little more strongly voiced atm.

But I am not in a minority of scientists. Scientists research independently. Doctors are told stuff by pharma reps (who sell a product and don't always study science) and have no time to research. Anyone who researches this doesn't use it. Or maybe I just know 100s of great people and not the scientists who spoke to you or whose papers you read.

[Hetty]

Don't scientists come to a consensus on many issues (even if they do research independently or on small teams)? Of course, not all will agree, but just for an example, don't most climate scientists agree that climate change exists?

Who advises the government on vaccinations? Is it a single scientist or doctor (I'm doubting this would be the case)? Or a group of scientists and doctors (which would mean some consensus)? Or pharmaceutical companies (that wouldn't be good!)? I have no idea, I'd like to know.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

There's quite a bit of proof for climate change, though.

And yeah, big pharma sponsors the government so are heard and can influence policy. That's how it works. That's why they get the tax breaks too.

[Trillian]

Just because a Govt or a Doctor tells us something is safe, doesn't mean that it is Follow the money. And just because a Doctor or Govt tells me something is the truth, also doesn't mean that it is. It baffles me that as soon as someone wearing a white coat with letters after their name tells us something is safe and we should all be doing it, it automatically becomes truth. Just because someone does something different to the mainstream by not vaccinating or being selective about it doesn't mean that they are doing the wrong thing.

[Hetty]

If you do a quick google search, you can read about the causes of cervical cancer from a huge range of sources. What baffles me is how people think they know more than doctors and scientists.

[~clover~]

I don't think anyone is saying they know any more than doctors or scientists. I think you're forgetting who's making money here & who's not. I know doctors who don't believe in vaccinations & who don't vax their own kids. I don't know how anyone can see the high numbers of serious side effects, with no proof that it'll ever work, yet go ahead & let them make more money off you. Do you know that medical professionals are NOT ALLOWED to say they disagree with vaccinating???

You can google all you want, but if you want to make an informed decision you need to know reasons for & against. For this vaccination I am seeing NO reasons for it. NONE. It MAY prevent minimal strains of HPV, those 2 strains MAY be linked to higher cervical cancer rates, it MAY reduce cervical cancer numbers in 10 years. It also MAY also do absolutely nothing except have caused deaths, paralysis, MS & other serious issues among young girls for NOTHING.

What baffles me is people sitting there & doing as they're told by people who are making billions of dollars on that decision. What baffles me is the fact that the government can choose what is publicised & what is not, yet people just sit back & allow it & believe the absolute BS they are fed without questioning it. And finally, what baffles me is that people are so ready & willing to judge others. I do vaccinate my children. I DO NOT discriminate against those who don't. My best friend chooses not to vaccinate.

I'm sure when your children are at the age for this vaccine you'll make a decision weather or not to have it done. I wonder if anyone will attack you for allowing it? That is your child & your choice, not mine or anyone elses.

[Trillian]

If you do a quick google search, you can read about the causes of cervical cancer from a huge range of sources. What baffles me is how people think they know more than doctors and scientists.

So you're saying that we should be mindless consumers who don't give a second thought about the legitimacy of what the Govt tells us, because if they tells us it's safe and we need to do it, then we should do it? Is that what you're trying to say? Because that's what it seems like to me. Please, tell me where I have said that I think I know more than Drs and scientists? Really, go ahead, do it. I've never once said that I think I know more, but I do know that the HPV *vaccination* is not the right choice for my children. And as their parent, I will exercise that right whenever the hell I choose and some random person on the interwebz like yourself has no business telling me I'm wrong for that. For the record though, I HAVE read firm a range of sources and all I've learned is that people can make statistics say whatever they want. I love it when anonymous people question my parenting decisions by assuming I've not read widely on the subject. In fact, I've probably read more widely than most of the people who choose to get it done.

And I really don't understand why my choices are bothering you so much Hetty. If you want to let your children get this vaccine, then power to you, because that's your right as their parent to make choices that you think are right for your family. I didn't drink the kool-aid

[beansbeans!]

Clover, I don't think it would be silly to ask to have her blood tested for immunity, actually I would be interested to know where the results.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought the objector form was only needed for all immunisations up to 4yrs? But I am more than likely wrong.

Hpv wise, I don't know if my girls will ever get the shots. It's a long way off for them. And when that time does come, i think I want to sit down with them and chat about the pros and cons and let them have a choice in the matter. I also hope by that stage there are some real independent studies done, on all immunisations, that are in no way linked back to the big pharmas or any govt.

*But as always, immunisations are not a vaccine. They do not protect you 100%, and this should always be remembered*

[Hetty]

Whoa! Your parenting choices don't bother me at all, settle! It bothers me when parents won't immunise against measles and then other children die because of it, but if your decisions don't hurt others then that doesn't bother me at all. I think you're the bothered one Trillian!

As for this cervical cancer thing, if you want to have conspiracy theories go for it. Also doesn't bother me. The only thing that bothers me here is that you guys go nuts at someone if they have an opinion other than yours. This forum is the only place where I have ever seen everyone agree on everything (even if it is against the mainstream) and it is incredibly bizarre. Maybe the moderators should put that in the rules, just so it's really clear that things work that way here.

Just to add, if I was saying that everyone should be mindless, why did I say to read a variety of sources? Where did I say everyone should be mindless? Are you saying I'm mindless? (As well as rude and arrogant?) What other names would you like to throw at me? maybe you could make a list, seeing as petty insults are your thing.

[beansbeans!]

Whoa! Your parenting choices don't bother me at all, settle! It bothers me when parents won't immunise against measles and then other children die because of it, but if your decisions don't hurt others then that doesn't bother me at all. I think you're the bothered one Trillian!

As for this cervical cancer thing, if you want to have conspiracy theories go for it. Also doesn't bother me. The only thing that bothers me here is that you guys go nuts at someone if they have an opinion other than yours. This forum is the only place where I have ever seen everyone agree on everything (even if it is against the mainstream) it is incredibly bizarre. Maybe the moderators should put that in the rules, just so it's really clear that things work that way here.

I'm sorry Hetty but not everyone agrees with everyone on here, actually there is usually some pretty heated conversations with some very clear opposing sides.
Perhaps you could have a look at some past threads, I can think of many threads in many areas that have got heated, that have been interesting to learn differing points of view etc.
I interpret your writing as rather aggressive, especially this last post. Sorry if that wasn't your intention, but that's my interpretation.

[~clover~]

I've been a member for years. There have been plenty of disagreements & heated discussions in the past. I'm not on here a lot, but it is actually quite tame compared to a few years ago.

I have a lot of things I don't agree with, but the issue isn't not agreeing with others. The issue is understanding others choices & accepting them. Its how you articulate your disagreements. Putting someone down as a parent is not a way to get your point across. Making your point, & knowing that that is YOUR view of things is fine, as long as you accept others views.

I asked for information on the HPV vax & maybe some experiences. That is the only input I was looking for. And I'm also happy to share the information I've found. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory, that's your choice, but the fact is that people I know PERSONALLY have had undesirable reactions. A girl my SIL went to school with had issues with her legs & numbness (MS like symptoms) with in days of the vaccine. This is real life, not reading on the internet. The more I ask people about THEIR personal experiences, the more not so great stories come out.

You can completely ignore my information & do as you please, but I will share it as best as I can. Purely so others actually decide to look more into it & become more informed before making their own decision.

[Trillian]

Whoa! Your parenting choices don't bother me at all, settle! It bothers me when parents won't immunise against measles and then other children die because of it, but if your decisions don't hurt others then that doesn't bother me at all. I think you're the bothered one Trillian!

OK, so what about the children who ARE vaccinated and still get measles because they were one of the 5-10% who the vaccine didn't protect and other people die because a supposedly vaccinated child gave them measles? Vaccines are not 100% effective. I have read that both the whooping cough and chicken pox are now only 70% effective, meaning 30% of children are NOT protected by the vaccine, and unless their parents have their blood tested to confirm immunity, they are still a potential risk for getting and then passing on the illness. Your words seem to give the impression that vaccines are foolsafe.

As for this cervical cancer thing, if you want to have conspiracy theories go for it. Also doesn't bother me. The only thing that bothers me here is that you guys go nuts at someone if they have an opinion other than yours. This forum is the only place where I have ever seen everyone agree on everything (even if it is against the mainstream) and it is incredibly bizarre. Maybe the moderators should put that in the rules, just so it's really clear that things work that way here.

Oh you have no idea how much this has made me laugh. So that's the way things work around here is it? Sorry, I must have missed that during my 10 year membership and years of being a moderator I'm not terribly active on the forums these days but there have been more than a few memorable moments on the forums where there have been some rather intense discussions where people vehemently disagreed with one another. I miss those days You're reasonably new around here, going by your join date I can see in your profile. Those who know me know that I never backed away from a healthy discussion. I'm exercising my right to be selective about what vaccines my kids get. My older three were all vaccinated to their schedules. This was back when I had no issue with what they were being vaccinated for. I even got my eldest two the chicken pox vaccine and paid for it because it wasn't on the schedule back then. Then I had my youngest baby. He had severe reactions to his vaccinations so he's not vaccinated past 4 months. I have a CO form lodged for him. our living situation means that were at in a significantly low risk group/area so I wasn't willing to put him through yet another reaction to protect against something he was extremely unlikely to get.

OK, I disagree with the HPV vaccine on principle because it's a vaccine that is masquerading as a prevention for CANCER. According to statistics, the HPV vaccine is now preventing 100% of HPV infection, but it has only lowered the rate of cervical cancer by 77% out of the 75% of cervical cancers that were attributed to HPV infection. Women can still get cervical cancer without ever have had an HPV infection. I think this vaccine breeds complacency and because of the clever marketing, women are not having regular pap smears. In 2011-12. Only 58% of women aged 20-69 had a pap smear, which could be attributed to the fact that many of those women would have had the vaccine when it came out in 2007 and who now don't think they need to have one.

This is straight from the Cancer Council website

There were 818 new cases of cervical cancer diagnosed in Australia in 2010. The risk of a woman being diagnosed by age 85 is 1 in 155.

In 2011, there were 229 deaths caused by cervical cancer in Australia. Cervical cancer death rates in Australia have halved since the National Cervical Screening Program began in 1991.

---

Considering these points, metaphorically speaking, we're amputating a leg because of a scratch when giving HPV vaccines as a prevention for cervical cancer. We already had a highly effective national screening program with pap smears that significantly reduced the number of cervical cancers so I feel that statistically speaking, the chance of getting cervical cancer is actually quite low - too low for me to consider it a high enough risk to give the vaccine to prevent something which doesn't always lead to cervical cancer. So it's not consipiracy theories at all. it's being able to critically analyse what you read.

Just to add, if I was saying that everyone should be mindless, why did I say to read a variety of sources? Where did I say everyone should be mindless? Are you saying I'm mindless? (As well as rude and arrogant?) What other names would you like to throw at me? maybe you could make a list, seeing as petty insults are your thing.

But does your variety of sources don't include anything that is not supportive of it? You didn't specifically say that people should be mindless, but you did say that we should believe what Doctors and scientists say. I also never said YOU were rude and arrogant, but your post certainly was. The other way that the forums work around here, particularly this one, is that people are respectful of other people decisions and that we can have a conversation about not vaccinating without being attacked for that. And it's not a conspiracy to say that they don't always get it right. You said you don't understand why people choose not to vaccinate and you feel like you're not being listened to. That's what it's like for people who don't vaccinate - you always feel like you're not being heard. I've said several times why I don't - I just don't feel like the risk of a woman getting cervical cancer is great enough to warrant getting a vaccine that I feel is not necessary when we already had a national screening program. The rate of women getting cervical cancer is so small that I don't feel it's a high enough risk to justify the vaccine.

[Hetty]

I've been called rude, arrogant and mindless, and I'm the aggressive one because I question the name calling? I'm not allowed an opinion but everyone else is, because it's the same opinion?

I've also been criticised for being anonymous, well what person on here has their first and last name as their username?

[Hetty]

Clover, I have no problem with what you've said. I said that I don't understand why parents don't vaccinate, I didn't say it was neglect or abuse if parents didn't vaccinate. Some people provided some answers, others attacked me. If people actually discussed the harms (and you have mentioned them) then I would understand. If you say the science is wrong and is a government conspiracy and I'm mindless and arrogant and rude and anonymous then I find that unreasonable.

[~clover~]

TBH I did take some of your replies personally. The fact is that none of us actually knows what we're doing. None of us knows 100% weather or not we are doing the right thing by our kids 100% of the time. I fail every day. But some things you can change, some you can't.
I can change the fact that I lost it at a cheeky 4yo this morning by apologising & talking to her. I can't take back an immunisation once it's been done. Yet a person who chooses not to immunise can change their mind down the track.

As I mentioned before, my best friend doesn't immunise, I do. When on the same side of the country (known each other 13 years, I moved away 3 years ago) we live in each others pockets. The immunisation has not been an issue between us. We've both discussed the fact that NEITHER of us is sure we're actually doing the right thing, but what else can we do? All you can do is what you believe yourself to be the best for your family at the time. And let others do what they think is best for their families.

Immunisation is not a guarantee against these diseases. There is still a chance your child could pick up one of these diseases AND there's also the chance it came from another immunised child. There is also a good chance that an unimmunised child won't pick it up. These diseases haven't completely been wiped out for thousands of years. If people are still contracting them, they're still alive. They're still being passed from person to person, immunised or not. You can't blame the unimmunised alone, unless you know that the disease was long gone, then suddenly, out of nowhere, it popped up in an unvaccinated child. CHILD. All the blame goes to parents. Of children. How long do vaccinations last? Do you have lifetime immunity?
Have you had YOUR immune levels tested recently?? Does every adult you know keep up to date with every booster as they get older? How can you blame parents of small children when there's a damn good chance there are adults who aren't immune.
A friend of mine (ex BB member) told me she's never been immune against rubella, even though she's been immunised against it 9 times. 9 times over 14 years while having children she had the rubella shot & she's still not immune to it. I know I am, but I also had rubella as a baby. So I have natural immunity. I was also immunised against it, but probably didn't even need it.

There are too many discrepancies. Too many factors to be able to judge who is right & who is wrong. No one is perfect & no one has a right to judge, or even question, anyone else.

[Hetty]

I have been judged in this thread. I have been called arrogant, rude and mindless.

As said before, I said I don't understand. So tell me about these side-affects, don't belittle me.

I know immunisation isn't 100%, and I never said it was. I said it reduces risk. I feel like no one is listening, like everything I say is being twisted. I said vaccination reduces risk. No one has proved otherwise.

As for my vaccination history, I've had my hep B immunisations tested and I'm still immune. I'll have my rubella tested before pregnancy and Tetanus shots again if I'm at risk. I don't know why this is even an issue though? I haven't blamed anyone? Again, I said I didn't understand. I didn't say anyone was a bad parent. Again, what I say is ignored, I'm being treated like I accused you all of child abuse.

[Hetty]

Gosh, the vaccine lowered the rate of cervical cancer by 77% out of the cancers attributed to HPV? I had no idea it was that high. That's fantastic! Seeing as 77% of 75% of cervical cancers were lowered, that is a reduction of cervical cancers overall by 57.75%. I think the guy who made the vaccine should have been awarded a nobel prize! Oh wait...

Also, not sure how many times I need to say vaccines are not 100% effective? Should I put it in capitals? I've said it in a previous post. I know they aren't. If a parent immunises against measles and their child still gets it, they did everything they could. I'm pro-immunisation here.