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It's funny you say that, because this is exactly the vibe I get from both you and Rockin - more the latter. By not properly addressing concerns, and being too quick to try and "correct" anything not agreed with, with single line explanations, and being quick to get personally offended stops it being a discussion.:
PZ and Keike - sorry, yes you are right, it is also about power. But I do think that there is undeniably also sexual gratification there as well (sorry, this is getting wayyy off topic). I guess I'm just saying that I see a huge difference between the standard definition of rape, and a doctor who is delivering a baby in a medical environment (albeit he maybe too forceful, not listening to his patient etc etc). I know that the term is widely used but to me it just doesn't sit right. Again, no disrespect at all to those who have experienced birthing trauma, just like the people who use the term mean no disrespect to those who have experienced the more conventional definition of the word.
You mean you didn't vaccinate your phone. You hypocrite!!:
Sorry - just trying to keep it light :)
Totally fair enough! Thankyou so much for expressing yourself in such a clear and reasoned way :) Many people would get defensive and rude. I can totally understand your discomfort.:
As to this thread, I'm really enjoying reading it.
:hello::
Okies, going back to reading from the shadows now...
Sent from my iPhone so forgive the speelung misstacks ;)
I have always provided reasoning behind what I've posted here, apart from some notable embarrassing exceptions, and I have been patient with you bandying around some pretty extreme hysterics. You do have valid issues and I've been patient in addressing your concerns. As Polly has pointed out most of the medical community are very very concerned about many of the issues your bringing up and don't take injuries or deaths lightly but with a heavy heart.:
Once again you've been deeply offensive but find it easy to shrug someone off and claim that they've misunderstood what you've written.
I find you calling my opinions "hysterics" because they are opposite of yours offensive, and you language in general is belittling.:
I'll concede that upon reading that above post, I can see that my talking about attitudes regarding patient treatment, and then talking about your and Polly's attitudes that appeared to fob off rather than address the concerns I've raised could be taken in the wrong way. The problem with adding points after the fact. I'm sorry that you've taken it the wrong way and I could have phrased it better or put it in a different place. However, I do think that the concerns I have raised have been fobbed off by both of you. You, in particular, have either used belittling language, sarcasm, incomplete one sentence explanations or simply not touched on those points. Even now, you would rather enter into a hypocritical and unjustified character assassination of me, then address those points!
-Claiming that HPV definitely does not cause cervical cancer, despite giving evidence to the contrary, yourself!:
-Claiming that HCG in vaccines causes infertility, despite the fact that HCG is made by every human brain.
These are just a few hysterical claims (the HCG one was full on hysteria) made with AVN style argument that I have patiently addressed.
But anyhow, where were we. You were asking me to answer some of your concerns from earlier about vaccine safety and I was obliging.
BTW I will be PMing you.
I've never visited the AVN. Why is it your instant assumption that anyone who questions vaccination is a member or visitor of the AVN?
I assumed before I came to this forum that anyone who questions vaccination agreed with the AVN but now I know better, that people question and think AND read. Thats a good thing!!! I know their style and it isn't pretty!
In response to Rotarix contamination:
:
"Porcine circovirus type 2 (PCV2) is considered by most to be the etiologic agent of postweaning multisystemic wasting syndrome (PMWS), but it is also found in association with numerous other conditions. These conditions include porcine dermatitis and nephropathy syndrome (PDNS), porcine respiratory disease complex (PRDC), congenital tremors (CT) type AII, reproductive failure and enteritis".:
Type 2 of this virus sounds pretty malignant to me, and is not the sort of thing to show up in short term trials, but many years down the track. I think the risk of the unknown in comparison to its sister virus should be a consideration, don't you think?
Firstly, I never said that HPV didn't play a part in cervical cancer, my point was that it is only a part. Someone can have HPV their whole life and never get cervical cancer, other factors play a part. So to say this vaccine stops cervical cancer is misleading.:
Secondly, if HCG being in a vaccine is nothing to worry about, how come contaception vaccines are made on HCG?:
Vaccines for control of fertility and hormone dependent cancers
And this one is pretty damming -
Infertility Caused by hCG Autoantibody
:
2 states over 14 years, with several doctors surgeries and child health clinics as well as one hospital. In fact, I went to the hospital to get my son TIG on orders from my doctor and they gave him ADT. At the time my doctor was actively supporting my decision to delay vax and this was brought about by an unfortunate nail stick accident before his final DTaP shot. So no. No consent for the ADT, no information on the ADT and they sure as heck didn't care to show me if it was the right one, not that I would have had the first clue myself. Unless they write ADT and TIG on them?:
If they have been told no, they do not have the legal right.:
If they have not gained informed consent, they do not have the legal right.
Doctors/Nurses doing what is in their minds the best thing is not a legal right.
Perhaps then Birth Assault might work better for you?
No. Never been to the AVN. My reasons are my own. I have never met a doctor that did not understand them and agreed that under the circumstances it might be safer if I delayed.:
Still, none of them asked me to sign any forms.
Completely agree with you - not for a minute saying their behaviour is in any way ok, and if it happened to me I'd be screaming from the rooftops. Strangely "birth assault" does work better for me. Please understand, I am in no way condoning doctors doing the wrong thing, merely just the use of a term which has what I believe to be different connotations and motivations.:
Moderator Message »
10 posts until this thread hits the magic 300. Closing arguments, ladies and gentlemen...
Bug's Mum, try reading some of Liebling's birth stories on here. And my emotional recovery (OK, a very long 3-year journey, eventually ending up with complaining to the hospital). I think birth rape is appropriate - and as for screaming about it, how many women report rape? Very few. Because of the emotional backlash of choosing to visit that pain again. I said no and yet still had things done to me I didn't want. But DH was OK with it, so that makes it all alright according to the health professionals at the time. (Which is why no doctor, midwife, nurse or DH is coming near me should I ever give birth again.) Also, rape implies a loss of power, not being heard, an assault on a very private and sensitive area of the body - try having a doctor shove his hand up there while I'm pushing and complaining that I'm too tense as he does it. I think birth rape covers that best.
As for vaccinations - people disagree. Wow. Vaccinated people can die of the diseases they think they are safe from, vaccinations don't always work and some cause more problems than they solve. Yet I still get Liebs vaccinated, albeit delayed vaccination (still within the approved time-frame). Why? Because overall they do more good than harm - the ones I choose to have done, at any rate. I don't get a chicken pox vaccine as I'm not Australian, wouldn't have given it to Liebs if I had the choice - and he could have died from it, age 3. I still stand by my decision - but would I feel the same if he had died? I don't give him every vaccination, and am against the HPV vaccine because of the marketting, but just because I have a foot in both camps doesn't mean I didn't inform myself of my decisions nor does it mean I am doing a bad thing from either perspective.
I do think that some health professionals see the greater good of vaccinations as more important than a parent's worries, but that happens in every profession about something. Just as some anti-vax people willingly blind themselves to any benefit of vaccination. Not everyone, but the few extremes give everyone a bad name.
That's a reasonable concern but you should know that there is more likelihood of a 747 landing on your house than that happening.:
There have been some pretty good arguments here and a lot of information on additives and previous issues with vaccines of past ages...
But I haven't seen any evidence of vaccines causing disease that, given that vaccines save so many lives, would stop anyone from vaccinating. (nothing said about age)
Whooping cough protection in the community is declining because enough people aren't vaccinated at the moment leaving our community at risk. A real risk that's killing children now.
A risk that IMHO is worth removing with our imperfect but most effective tool, vaccination.
FB - I appreciate your candidness (is that a word?) about your own experience and I am very sorry for what is an appalling experience. While I am not prepared to offer up stories of my own from the other side, I do respectfully hold my ground on my belief of the term. But having experienced what you have, you are entitled to call the violations that you suffered whatever you want to call them, and to be heard accordingly. Like anything we are all shaped by our experiences and show respect each others. I hope you have managed to find some peace after what you went through :hug:
I agree very strongly, I think theres a pretty definite line, no means no means no. Consent is important and it's law. Something that's done to another person physically for the reason of taking power away from that person that affects them strongly deserves that word no matter the setting. I think that it's very important to take a strong personal advocate into the birthing room whether it's a really good friend, trusted partner, doula or personal midwife. I'm sorry that happened to you too FB.:
It takes the lives of babies too young to be vaccinated.:
It is the extremely low rate of adult booster uptake that is contributing almost entirely to the spread of whooping cough.
Screaming at anti-vaxxers won't fix either problem.
Moderator Message »
Closing the thread now everyone, there have been some good points raised.