Melb baby dies of whooping cough...

[Yeddi]

I've never visited the AVN. Why is it your instant assumption that anyone who questions vaccination is a member or visitor of the AVN?

[RockinSAHD]

I assumed before I came to this forum that anyone who questions vaccination agreed with the AVN but now I know better, that people question and think AND read. Thats a good thing!!! I know their style and it isn't pretty!

[RockinSAHD]

In response to Rotarix contamination:

There is no justification, but as humans make these things and humans make mistakes...
Take a look at this:
"It's not at all clear that the presence of porcine circovirus 1 DNA in Rotarix is a problem. Circoviruses have not been associated with human disease, and porcine circovirus 1 has not been found to cause disease in any animal. Many humans have antibodies to these viruses, including porcine circovirus, indicating that they were infected at one time. Furthermore, it's not known if the vaccine contains infectious virus or DNA fragments. Nevertheless, it's always preferable to err on the side of caution, as the FDA has done."

The virus is unexpectedly small and didn't cause any symptoms in the trials. The PC 1 virus doesn't cause illness in humans or animals and none of the PC viruses have caused illness in humans and are quite common. It's also likely that the virus in the vaccine wasn't even infectious.
If the contaminant had been illness causing it would've been seen in the testing and the infected batches have been pulled. Its harmful and embarrassing and I'm very sure that further vaccines will be better tested.

If your sexually active then you are at risk of getting HPV, 70% of cervical cancer is preventable by the vaccine (HPV has been proved to cause cancer, it's causal). Of the 33 million doses given in the US as of feb 2011 there were 32 confirmed deaths (29 unconfirmed, you'd think they'd know!) connected with the HPV vaccines though none of them have been shown to be caused be the vaccine. These deaths, though unfortunate, have been up to six months after having the vaccine and have included car accidents.

There have been many, investigations in different countries but no pattern or suspicious autopsies that credit the vaccine with the death.

[Yeddi]

In response to Rotarix contamination:

"Porcine circovirus type 2 (PCV2) is considered by most to be the etiologic agent of postweaning multisystemic wasting syndrome (PMWS), but it is also found in association with numerous other conditions. These conditions include porcine dermatitis and nephropathy syndrome (PDNS), porcine respiratory disease complex (PRDC), congenital tremors (CT) type AII, reproductive failure and enteritis".

Type 2 of this virus sounds pretty malignant to me, and is not the sort of thing to show up in short term trials, but many years down the track. I think the risk of the unknown in comparison to its sister virus should be a consideration, don't you think?

[Yeddi]

-Claiming that HPV definitely does not cause cervical cancer, despite giving evidence to the contrary, yourself!

Firstly, I never said that HPV didn't play a part in cervical cancer, my point was that it is only a part. Someone can have HPV their whole life and never get cervical cancer, other factors play a part. So to say this vaccine stops cervical cancer is misleading.

-Claiming that HCG in vaccines causes infertility, despite the fact that HCG is made by every human brain.

Secondly, if HCG being in a vaccine is nothing to worry about, how come contaception vaccines are made on HCG?
Vaccines for control of fertility and hormone dependent cancers

And this one is pretty damming -
Infertility Caused by hCG Autoantibody

[Inertia]

I've never signed a consent form for immunisations but have given implied consent because I took them to be immunised and agreed to having them done. Each time i was given an information sheet, made to read it and take it with me, and check the syringes to make sure they were getting the right ones. Same proceedure, 3 different states, 3 different venues. A doctors surgery, child health clinic, and a community immunisation clinic.

I have always been informed of the adverse side effects of immunisations, also in 2 different states and 6 different venues. If you are not being informed I would find another health care provider. Child health nurses are the best at doing this in my opinion.

2 states over 14 years, with several doctors surgeries and child health clinics as well as one hospital. In fact, I went to the hospital to get my son TIG on orders from my doctor and they gave him ADT. At the time my doctor was actively supporting my decision to delay vax and this was brought about by an unfortunate nail stick accident before his final DTaP shot. So no. No consent for the ADT, no information on the ADT and they sure as heck didn't care to show me if it was the right one, not that I would have had the first clue myself. Unless they write ADT and TIG on them?

it's more the doctor/nurses doing what is in their minds the best thing to deliver the child safely, as they have been given the responsibility and legal obligation to do.

If they have been told no, they do not have the legal right.
If they have not gained informed consent, they do not have the legal right.
Doctors/Nurses doing what is in their minds the best thing is not a legal right.

Perhaps then Birth Assault might work better for you?

I assumed before I came to this forum that anyone who questions vaccination agreed with the AVN but now I know better, that people question and think AND read. Thats a good thing!!! I know their style and it isn't pretty!

No. Never been to the AVN. My reasons are my own. I have never met a doctor that did not understand them and agreed that under the circumstances it might be safer if I delayed.

Still, none of them asked me to sign any forms.

[LizLemon]

If they have been told no, they do not have the legal right.
If they have not gained informed consent, they do not have the legal right.
Doctors/Nurses doing what is in their minds the best thing is not a legal right.

Perhaps then Birth Assault might work better for you?

Completely agree with you - not for a minute saying their behaviour is in any way ok, and if it happened to me I'd be screaming from the rooftops. Strangely "birth assault" does work better for me. Please understand, I am in no way condoning doctors doing the wrong thing, merely just the use of a term which has what I believe to be different connotations and motivations.

[Schmickers]

Moderator Message »
10 posts until this thread hits the magic 300. Closing arguments, ladies and gentlemen...

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Bug's Mum, try reading some of Liebling's birth stories on here. And my emotional recovery (OK, a very long 3-year journey, eventually ending up with complaining to the hospital). I think birth rape is appropriate - and as for screaming about it, how many women report rape? Very few. Because of the emotional backlash of choosing to visit that pain again. I said no and yet still had things done to me I didn't want. But DH was OK with it, so that makes it all alright according to the health professionals at the time. (Which is why no doctor, midwife, nurse or DH is coming near me should I ever give birth again.) Also, rape implies a loss of power, not being heard, an assault on a very private and sensitive area of the body - try having a doctor shove his hand up there while I'm pushing and complaining that I'm too tense as he does it. I think birth rape covers that best.

As for vaccinations - people disagree. Wow. Vaccinated people can die of the diseases they think they are safe from, vaccinations don't always work and some cause more problems than they solve. Yet I still get Liebs vaccinated, albeit delayed vaccination (still within the approved time-frame). Why? Because overall they do more good than harm - the ones I choose to have done, at any rate. I don't get a chicken pox vaccine as I'm not Australian, wouldn't have given it to Liebs if I had the choice - and he could have died from it, age 3. I still stand by my decision - but would I feel the same if he had died? I don't give him every vaccination, and am against the HPV vaccine because of the marketting, but just because I have a foot in both camps doesn't mean I didn't inform myself of my decisions nor does it mean I am doing a bad thing from either perspective.

I do think that some health professionals see the greater good of vaccinations as more important than a parent's worries, but that happens in every profession about something. Just as some anti-vax people willingly blind themselves to any benefit of vaccination. Not everyone, but the few extremes give everyone a bad name.

[RockinSAHD]

"Porcine circovirus type 2 (PCV2) is considered by most to be the etiologic agent of postweaning multisystemic wasting syndrome (PMWS), but it is also found in association with numerous other conditions. These conditions include porcine dermatitis and nephropathy syndrome (PDNS), porcine respiratory disease complex (PRDC), congenital tremors (CT) type AII, reproductive failure and enteritis".

Type 2 of this virus sounds pretty malignant to me, and is not the sort of thing to show up in short term trials, but many years down the track. I think the risk of the unknown in comparison to its sister virus should be a consideration, don't you think?

That's a reasonable concern but you should know that there is more likelihood of a 747 landing on your house than that happening.

There have been some pretty good arguments here and a lot of information on additives and previous issues with vaccines of past ages...

But I haven't seen any evidence of vaccines causing disease that, given that vaccines save so many lives, would stop anyone from vaccinating. (nothing said about age)

Whooping cough protection in the community is declining because enough people aren't vaccinated at the moment leaving our community at risk. A real risk that's killing children now.

A risk that IMHO is worth removing with our imperfect but most effective tool, vaccination.

[LizLemon]

FB - I appreciate your candidness (is that a word?) about your own experience and I am very sorry for what is an appalling experience. While I am not prepared to offer up stories of my own from the other side, I do respectfully hold my ground on my belief of the term. But having experienced what you have, you are entitled to call the violations that you suffered whatever you want to call them, and to be heard accordingly. Like anything we are all shaped by our experiences and show respect each others. I hope you have managed to find some peace after what you went through

[RockinSAHD]

I think birth rape covers that best.

I agree very strongly, I think theres a pretty definite line, no means no means no. Consent is important and it's law. Something that's done to another person physically for the reason of taking power away from that person that affects them strongly deserves that word no matter the setting. I think that it's very important to take a strong personal advocate into the birthing room whether it's a really good friend, trusted partner, doula or personal midwife. I'm sorry that happened to you too FB.

[Inertia]

That's a reasonable concern but you should know that there is more likelihood of a 747 landing on your house than that happening.

There have been some pretty good arguments here and a lot of information on additives and previous issues with vaccines of past ages...

But I haven't seen any evidence of vaccines causing disease that, given that vaccines save so many lives, would stop anyone from vaccinating. (nothing said about age)

Whooping cough protection in the community is declining because enough people aren't vaccinated at the moment leaving our community at risk. A real risk that's killing children now.

A risk that IMHO is worth removing with our imperfect but most effective tool, vaccination.

It takes the lives of babies too young to be vaccinated.
It is the extremely low rate of adult booster uptake that is contributing almost entirely to the spread of whooping cough.

Screaming at anti-vaxxers won't fix either problem.

[boomba]

Moderator Message »
Closing the thread now everyone, there have been some good points raised.