Melb baby dies of whooping cough...

[BellyBelly]

... In the Herald Sun today. Again they are calling for people to vaccinate, but, why arent they addressing the vaccine issues, its failing at a higher rate and needs to be fixed. Even medical spokespeople have admitted it. Yet the blame on non-vaxers continues....

[Yeddi]

Yes, I saw the article in the Herald. Lovely bit of propaganda made from this family's tragedy. More and more, the news seems to have gone from reporting of details to the profiteering of people's misery and pushing agendas. I find it interesting that they haven't released the baby's age. My skeptical side wonders if that is because the baby was under the age of vaccination anyway which wouldn't allow for sweeping generalisations. I just love how in the news people still have to say "the suspect" if a murder is found at the scene with blood on their hands, and can even confess, but they can make statements like "vaccination rates are below the 90 per cent that assures "herd immunity". No study has EVER been conducted to prove that vaccination provides heard immunity. This is an assumption made on one study about how heard immunity can occur after a natural outbreak of the disease. It's time for the vaccination lobby to stop assuming and find the evidence.

[Honeybee]

Apparently the baby was 'newborn'. S/he would have caught it from someone close to him or her. I am quite concerned about this, my baby will be born in winter, and I will at least be checking that DH's and my boosters are up to date, and I will ask my parents and sister to do the same. I wish I could ask everyone who will be in contact with my baby to be vaccianted. Sure, vaccination isn't 100% effective, but it does provide a great deal of protection and I think it's reasonable to take steps to protect the health of my new and vulnerable baby. Of course some companies and people make a lot of money out of vaccines, but people make a lot of money out of drugs that treat cancer, diabetes whatever. That doesn't mean that it's all propaganda and totally flawed. Vaccination is extremely important for public health, everybody benefits from it and I consider it a public duty to the rest of the community that my family is vaccinated. It makes me angry that other people in the community don't vaccinate, thereby putting my health, my children's health and my immune suppressed father's health at risk.

[BellyBelly]

Why would it make you angry, if your baby is vax'd then it wouldnt get it? Unless its some of the recent whooping cough vaccines (lets throw chicken pox in there too because thats happening also), where vaccinated people are getting it because its lost effectiveness. The anger should not be directed at those who have made their own informed choice, like you have. Each to their own. Get angry at the vaccine companies for not making them better/safer, and making loads of money from it. Its about money to them. For parents, they think about their children's health. I know loads of unvax'd kids who are very healthy.

[Honeybee]

Well, I will vaccinate but can't give my baby the whooping cough vaccine until s/he's older. I don't want to defend pharaceutical companies, clearly they need to develop more effective vaccines and keep up with changing diseases - and I'm sure they're trying because they will make more money from a vaccine that's more effective. I know there are diseases that are beating vaccines at the moment, my niece was vaccinated against chicken pox and she still caught it this year from a kid from overseas. Then she exposed us to it as well. DS didn't catch it, presumably because he has been vaccinated and it did protect him in this instance. But doctors hardly ever see chicken pox now, when I was a child everyone expected to have it. So vaccines clearly do protect a huge number of people.

Anyway, I think what I'm really angry about is when sick people who know they have something come near me or my family. The number of times DH's family members have come over, kissed me and then revealed later on that they have some kind of illness astonishes me. That's nothing to do with vaccination, but it's irresponsible and inconsiderate. How do you tell people it's not appropriate to visit a newborn baby when they're sick? Everyone should know that and not need to be told. Sorry, a bit OTT but it's on my mind this morning after reading about that poor baby in the news.

[Yeddi]

But doctors hardly ever see chicken pox now, when I was a child everyone expected to have it. So vaccines clearly do protect a huge number of people.

Sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight but I don't understand the logic that says that the herd immunity for chicken pox can have come from the vaccine (which is an unproven theory) but not from the heard immunity that has been built up from the unvaxed generation that did catch the disease (which is a proven theory). How does that work?

Our whole family except one caught whooping cough, despite being vaccinated in 2005, four months ago, the only one not to catch it was my 8 week old UNvaccinated son. We caught it from a family of 12 from playgroup, where one of the older kids had caught it from a vaccinated kid at school whose parents sent him to school even though they KNEW he was sick because they didn't want to take time off work. Ten in that family are vaccinated, two are not. Guess which two didn't catch it? The youngest two who weren't vaccinated. Trust vaccination if you like, but when I put this on top of the fact my husband caught typhoid from the typhoid vaccination, I wouldn't go near the things and would happily go to jail and hide my children underground to stop him from being vaccinated. It is not just you that gets angry about the vaccination debate. It is an emotive topic both ways and the suggestion that because other people believe in it I should subject my child to it makes me furious. People should be free to make choices for themselves regarding their own autonomy, it is a basic human right.

But there is one thing I agree with you absolutely, and that is it also makes me furious when people don't quarantine themselves or their kids when they are sick. If the parents of the kid who had whooping cough first had kept him at home, none of us might have caught it. There is no murky water there. That is a true risk of someone else's health, and even their own. Stay at home and get well.

[sunshine_sieben]

My heart goes out to this family and all others who have lost a child. No parent should outlive their child.

I know there are diseases that are beating vaccines at the moment, my niece was vaccinated against chicken pox and she still caught it this year from a kid from overseas. Then she exposed us to it as well. DS didn't catch it, presumably because he has been vaccinated and it did protect him in this instance. But doctors hardly ever see chicken pox now, when I was a child everyone expected to have it. So vaccines clearly do protect a huge number of people.

Doctors hardly ever see chickenpox... because you usually don't need to go to the doctor when you have chickenpox. My kids both had it. It didn't even occur to me to go to the doc unless there were complications - what for?

If anything - and I have discussed this with some European doctors at length - herd immunity might be WEAKENED in the long run with the chickenpox vax. This is why: when we were little most kids got chickenpox and developed natural LIFE-LONG immunity. These days, most kids get vaccinated which will wear off eventually. It is a fact that adults are pretty slack with getting boosters. So these vaccinated kids are quite likely to get chickenpox as adults, when it is a much worse disease. They might get it when pregnant or pass it on to newborns, too young to have been vaccinated. Or get it when they are older and immune suppressed.

While I am glad we got the chickenpox thing over and done with, I have seen firsthand that it is NOT true that vaccinated children get a milder form. My friends 2 boys and some of the other kids at kindy who caught it from them, had much more severe cases than mine (both not vaxed for CP). My 3yo only had one night where she was uncomfortable and took a pinetarsol bath. I gave her daily oatmeal baths for a few days, but that just cause I felt I should be doing something. She was her normal, energetic self. My son, who was just over 1 at the time had a few pustules but they seemed neither itchy nor did he have a temperature or anything. He slept well, ate well and if it hadn't been for the spots, I would have sworn he didn't have CP.

Also, my friend thought nothing of taking her (vaxed) younger son to kindy when her (also vaxed) older son had contracted CP at school. This is how CP got introduced into DD's kindy and it spread like wildfire within this mostly vaxed community. I on the other hand knew DD would be likely getting it from my friend's son, so I quarantined her before she was even symptomatic and then I quarantined DS before he showed symptoms (CP is the most infectious the from a couple of days before spots appear. So no-one could have caught it from us). Yes, it was soooo frustrating, essentially being stuck at home for a month. And it wouldn't be easy to do that when you have to work.
So, in my opinion, it is the NEED to send our children to daycare/school so that we can go to work that has to carry some of the blame for the rapid spread of diseases like this. Please know, I am not judging working mums or blaming them. But it is understandable that it is much harder to isolate a child on a mere suspicion when you have to try and keep a job.

I do agree with your anger towards people who come to see a newborn while knowingly sick. I don't understand that, that is just careless. I am in mo way someone to ask for virtual "sterility" around small children. But people have to use some common sense.

Sasa

I should ad: I am a partial vaxer. My kids have most of the common vaccines. But I decided against CP and I delayed HepB.

[entreat]

, if your baby is vax'd then it wouldnt get it?

I'm not sure why you would assume that vaccinated people don't ever get the disease. I was vaccinated & I got whooping cough as a child. But unlike the unvaccinated kids in my class, I didn't get admitted into hospital. That's a really peculiar thing to assume as a Dr would never advocate that. It reduces the impact of the disease on the body as the body is primed to fight it better - it's not a force shield. I'm not sure why there is a misconception that, for a single person, to be vaccinated makes you 100% immune to the things you're being vaccinated against.

I'm also not sure why the article was claimed to be propaganda (except that it's in the Herald Sun!!). What if the family would like to spread the word about vaccinating because it might have saved their child? Isn't popular media a good choice to get the word out to lots of people? Pro-breastfeeding articles are in news papers (and magazines) more & mroe frequently. does that mean the ABA are scare-mongering? No, of course not! It's an effective way to get a message out to many people (1.3 million for the HS).

[Yeddi]

The definition of Propaganda - Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position.
As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. "

The article didn't provide both sides, but is one sided and biased. It completely ignores ALL the studies that shows there is absolutely no clustering of outbreaks amongst the unvaccinated, yet blames the unvaccinated for spreading the disease. It ignores the fact that vaccination for some reason does not effect infection rates with a whopping 85% of whooping cough cases occuring in the fully vaccinated, and the bulk of the 15% unvaccinated are under the age of vaccination or elderly who are always the most vulnerable because of their immature immunes systems (which would be the case vaccinated or not). The article doesn't touch on the fact that vaccination can be ineffective, it doesn't touch on the side effects, but touts plenty of assumed and untested theory as fact, especially the holy grail of untested theories "heard immunity". Aka propaganda. Ethical news is meant to present binary facts, not push an agenda, otherwise it's not news anymore.

[Shanti]

It makes me angry that other people in the community don't vaccinate, thereby putting my health, my children's health and my immune suppressed father's health at risk.

I can understand where you are coming from, I myself am not totally anti vax but I'm not pro-vax either.... I'm selective with what my DD gets. And I have every right to be..... there is so much garbage that gets put into these vaccinations.
And who's to say your children won't get sick just because they've had the needles? They can still get it.

This story is so sad that poor little baby and family. I cannot imagine.

[Cocolove]

It makes me angry that other people in the community don't vaccinate, thereby putting my health, my children's health and my immune suppressed father's health at risk.

I agree! Because Vaccinating your child doesnt mean they are completly 100% coverd from getting it, they may just get it to a lesser degree which can still be fatal or damaging, if everyone vaccinated their children we could kill these diseases off surely!!

[Jennifer13]

The whooping cough vax isn't given to newborns though, so a n/b baby is unprotected from someone who has the active disease, unless it is picking up some immunity from Mum (unlikely unless Mum is vax just prior to pg). Sure, vax isn't a 100% assurance (and they do wear off - speaking as someone who caught the mumps badly at 19 (altho vaxed as a child) from someone else's unvaxed toddler...). It will worry me too, as DD is at school now and if we have another I can't keep a new baby away from lots of other children.

I only hope anti-vax groups are not going to harrass this poor family like the ones on the NSW north coast after they lost their baby. I am personally in favour of vaccinating, although I agree there should be more scrutiny of pharmas (not just for this). But turning it into a pro-vax vs anti-vax debate won't get that happening.

[BellyBelly]

I didn't realise that poor family was harassed There are extremes with everything, like the anti-abortion lobby.... as well as pro-vax lobby unfortunately. As long as we realise its a small part of the population who are vocal and outspoken. Its so hard to know what to choose most the time, sad it gets that way.

[Jennifer13]

It was awful Kel. They sent the parents threatening letters, demanding they retract the public report that the baby died of whooping cough. The parents went out publicly with what they received and there was a big call for the responsible group to be required to post prominently that they were anti-vax, as their website said they provided info on vaccinations, without stating the agenda.

I'm always wary of big corporates and the amount of power they have, particularly in health and food, but I'm not sure of the answer. Apart from encouraging greater transparency and ethical business behaviour.

Anyone have the answers?

[BellyBelly]

Its a toughy for the most part. Even on the FB or other pages where there are vaccine information pages, you get pro-vax lobbyists flouting their qualifications, telling us we're stupid, they are scientists, biologists etc and harass the crap out of others... they pick fights... and I guess its not a fight til you bite back, but still... this is life on so many topics. Defense is the first act of war. I think the answer is to not resist what is, acceptance that we all have our views and it's not you with the problem, its them (and not create one for your own), and to have peace with our own choices. Only we create the war when we resist. I'm sure those people love it that they created such a reaction and attention - and therefore more attention on the topic.

[Dansta]

i was talking to my mum about it.
its so sad that this poor baby passed due to whooping cough. and honstly it scares me that the vax isn't working as well, seeing as DS1 now has a higher chance of getting upper respiratory infections due to other medication he is on. can i ask a really stupid question - whooping cough will (in most cases) mend its self like a cold (even if it take months) wont it? i know its not a nice thing to see but just a thought.

as for chicken pox DJ got 'em at 11 months old. so vic wont get the vax for it. its a 'right of passage' as a child IMHO. but i'm an odd ball!

[Little Chicken]

i was talking to my mum about it.
its so sad that this poor baby passed due to whooping cough. and honstly it scares me that the vax isn't working as well, seeing as DS1 now has a higher chance of getting upper respiratory infections due to other medication he is on. can i ask a really stupid question - whooping cough will (in most cases) mend its self like a cold (even if it take months) wont it? i know its not a nice thing to see but just a thought.

as for chicken pox DJ got 'em at 11 months old. so vic wont get the vax for it. its a 'right of passage' as a child IMHO. but i'm an odd ball!

Yes it will mend itself, over months not days. Months of a horrible cough that can be bad enough to break ribs, and in babies at least, they can't breathe while they are coughing. Unlike disease like chickenpox, catching the natural form of whooping cough does not give long term immunity either.

[Phteven]

Poor baby
And his family, what a nightmare. I hope they don't find themselves grieving in the midst of a propaganda war.