Melb baby dies of whooping cough...

[RockinSAHD]

I'm having issues with my phone, must have a virus!

[PollyA]

Hmmm... what am I meant to be looking at? I'm confused



Actually, I don't think it is a completely whole different issue. It comes down to an issue of trust, of not being told all the information, of feeling fobbed off and not heard. How quickly are concerns about vaccines fobbed off like a women doesn't want an induction because she's gone 3 days past her estimated due date? I actually think the attitudes are very much the same. It's a we know better, we have the rubber stamp validating our view, and if you don't follow our orthodox advice you're a crank. I've read the NSW health nurse instruction manual thingy, and in it they refer nurses to a study about why parents don't vaccinate. In it, it states that parents often don't vaccinate because of safety concerns. What does the study say the solution to this is? Emotional blackmail. Not address the concerns. Not talk about alternatives. No. It says to pull the "how will you feel if they catch this disease and die" line. Wrong attitude! Bad process! In fact, we've even see the same attitude here. Here's this concern, and we get a "no, that's not a problem", and it get's fobbed off with a one sentence reply. It's only a small virus that's contaminated this vaccination. It has no proven risk. Let's ignore that it has no unproven risk either, and that vaccines shouldn't be contaminated! Or it's okay to have this NEW vaccine whether you've been sexually active or not, let's not consider the fact it that has been rush produced and is being use on mass without proper trails because it was pre-approved. Honestly, the from the hip justifications don't persuade me to think any different.

Luckily I haven't experienced birth trauma or as some call it birth rape, but I did have the midwife come in while I was being stitched up from three 2nd degree tears to stop me haemorrhaging, trying to persuade me using emotional blackmail to give my son the hep B vax despite my clear indication in my records/birth plan etc that it wasn't going to happen. That is disgusting! If my trust was shaky beforehand, it become non-existant after that. Why the hell should we trust a system that stands there while a woman has a strangers hands in their most private parts using emotional blackmail to pressure them into giving their baby's vaccines before the mother even has had the chance to get herself together. It's a very deliberate tactic to undermine a woman's/parents informed choice. Vaccines have more issues than just their ingredients and side effects, the attitude behind many of the medical establishment peddling them and how determined they are to be obtuse to the concerns of parents is just as dangerous IMO.

I'm sorry PollyA and Rockin, but seeing that you both work in the medical field, I'm not convinced that the culture of your employment means you are giving the most unbiased/balanced opinions. Of course I expect you to defend it. You want to believe you're helping to "save" people and would not want to consider that instead those actions regarding vaccinations may mean you are actually playing a part in harming many people. Conflict of interest.

My interest is that of patient care.
Respect is a two way street.
Blanket disrespect of medical professionals in my opinion is dangerous and unfounded.
You have NO idea how I interact with my patients. You are making massive, offensive assumptions.

[RockinSAHD]

Your right, that's sick. You think I'm convincing myself I'm 'saving' my own children.

Careful not to let your own prejudice of authority figures cloud your thinking. Polly is right, it's a new age, it's all evidence and service delivery now. If your not being treated right collect your own evidence and use it or go somewhere else.

Jaded rants don't help your cause at all.

[LizLemon]

Whilst I am a bit fearful of popping my head up in the debate in case it gets lopped off, I must say this thread is kind of getting a bit off track. It's getting hard to work out who is agreeing with who!

I think it's a bit of a leap to say that medical professionals hae a conflict of interest - apart from the very very few whackjobs out there, the vast majority of health professionals take their role very seriously, and have taken upon themselves to be educated in order to help people. If I or my family were sick - first port of call - doctor or nurse. I would back their knowledge in an emergency over any of my ability to research and interpret data. (That is not to say that the ladies on here are not extremely well read up - I honestly salute your commitment to educating yourselves on the matter). So I also tend to take a medical professional's advice on vaccinations too.

Oh, and am I the only one who finds the term "birth rape" to be unbelievably offensive?

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

That was my first response to the term when I heard it as well, BM, but it's the correct term. If you were laying on your bed at home, and someone entered your room without consent and touched your genitalia without your consent, even inserting fingers or anything else, it would be called rape. Therefore, when it's done in a hospital to a birthing woman, frequently while she objects, it's rightly called 'birth rape'. A strong term, but a correct one.

[PollyA]

There is healthy debate amongst health professionals on issues such as these. There is great care and concern about adverse effects and the documenting and investigation of these. These "untested" vaccines you speak of, are in fact stringently tested. The world over there are many public health authorities looking at all of the evidence available and trying to make the right call. Do they get it wrong sometimes? Yes. Are there risks? Yes. The international collective opinion is that the benefits outweigh the risks. Health professionals accept that opinion and therefore act in what they believe is the best interest of their patients. Do you have to accept the opinion. No you are free to refuse, but your insistence that health professionals are peddling, acting as some part of a conspiracy or in cahoots with big pharma is unfounded and offensive.
In fact many many health professionals are skeptical about big Pharma as well. Also something that much considered thought and discussion goes into.

If you are unwilling to hear something because it comes from a medical professional your argument becomes blinded and ill informed. It is hardly a debate if you refuse to listen to anyone who disagrees and that is when, I believe, it becomes dangerous.

[LizLemon]

That was my first response to the term when I heard it as well, BM, but it's the correct term. If you were laying on your bed at home, and someone entered your room without consent and touched your genitalia without your consent, even inserting fingers or anything else, it would be called rape. Therefore, when it's done in a hospital to a birthing woman, frequently while she objects, it's rightly called 'birth rape'. A strong term, but a correct one.

Hmm I guess, but we aren't really talking about a doctor doing it to gain sexual gratification (or are we? ), it's more the doctor/nurses doing what is in their minds the best thing to deliver the child safely, as they have been given the responsibility and legal obligation to do. While I know that in that situation it would be very traumatic if you didn't want the examinations required, I just .. I dunno I don't want to hijack the thread or risk offending anyone who may have experienced such trauma... but I just cringe whenever I hear it.

[PumpkinZulu]

Hmm I guess, but we aren't really talking about a doctor doing it to gain sexual gratification (or are we? ), it's more the doctor/nurses doing what is in their minds the best thing to deliver the child safely, as they have been given the responsibility and legal obligation to do. While I know that in that situation it would be very traumatic if you didn't want the examinations required, I just .. I dunno I don't want to hijack the thread or risk offending anyone who may have experienced such trauma... but I just cringe whenever I hear it.

'Normal' rape is rarely just about gaining sexual gratification, if at all. It's about power. I've witnessed medical professionals in a birthing situation do as they please regardless of the patients wishes...whilst I would certainly not class that incidence as birth rape, I can easily see how it would come about. The term doesn't offend me; it is confronting, but so is the action. Technically, it is correct.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

I do understand what you're saying I doubt rape is about sexual gratification though, that can be easily obtained. It's more about asserting ones power and control. While I'd like to think that all medical professionals are lovely people who just wanna help and there are only a few exceptions, my own experiences and those that I have read tell me differently.

ETA - I didn't like it when I first heard it, so I googled it to find out more. If you're up to it (not sure of your background), I would recommend googling 'birth rape' and reading some experiences. The only other term I would use after reading these experiences would be 'birth torture'.

[Yeddi]

My interest is that of patient care.
Respect is a two way street.
Blanket disrespect of medical professionals in my opinion is dangerous and unfounded.
You have NO idea how I interact with my patients. You are making massive, offensive assumptions.

Keep your shirt on. I said that I didn't trust that your opinion wasn't clouded by the bias of your profession, I never said anything about how you personally interact with your patients. Everyone has their own bias, every work place has a culture, these effect our opinions. Your profession is very PRO vaccination, that's going to effect how you think about it. Does this mean I think you're less open to other beliefs/ideas about vaccination... yep. You can get all offended if you like, but at the same time can you say it's not true?

Unfortunately, the fact you've jumped on this and got offended at an honest admission, rather than looking at the WHOLE post and addressing those issues only goes to prove a point. Again, the concerns about process have been ignored, and the attitudes of some medical professionals (I never said all - we were specifically talking about the attitudes that lead women to feel birth trauma - do all women feel birth trauma? no), who are more concerned about things being done their way then listening to their patients. Did I say this about you? No. Only the last sentence about bias was addressed to you personally.

Perhaps it might help to remember that when someone says they think something, it doesn't automatically mean they don't also believe in the opposite, or that ALL things are that way.

I'm not anti-doctor or medical profession, I'm anti-we think we know it all. There are plenty of good health professionals out there, that don't fob people off, they don't take questions as personal insults, that ask for permission, but likewise there are plenty of the opposite as well.

[Yeddi]

It is hardly a debate if you refuse to listen to anyone who disagrees and that is when, I believe, it becomes dangerous.

It's funny you say that, because this is exactly the vibe I get from both you and Rockin - more the latter. By not properly addressing concerns, and being too quick to try and "correct" anything not agreed with, with single line explanations, and being quick to get personally offended stops it being a discussion.

[LizLemon]

PZ and Keike - sorry, yes you are right, it is also about power. But I do think that there is undeniably also sexual gratification there as well (sorry, this is getting wayyy off topic). I guess I'm just saying that I see a huge difference between the standard definition of rape, and a doctor who is delivering a baby in a medical environment (albeit he maybe too forceful, not listening to his patient etc etc). I know that the term is widely used but to me it just doesn't sit right. Again, no disrespect at all to those who have experienced birthing trauma, just like the people who use the term mean no disrespect to those who have experienced the more conventional definition of the word.

[LizLemon]

I'm having issues with my phone, must have a virus!

You mean you didn't vaccinate your phone. You hypocrite!!

Sorry - just trying to keep it light

[PumpkinZulu]

PZ and Keike - sorry, yes you are right, it is also about power. But I do think that there is undeniably also sexual gratification there as well (sorry, this is getting wayyy off topic). I guess I'm just saying that I see a huge difference between the standard definition of rape, and a doctor who is delivering a baby in a medical environment (albeit he maybe too forceful, not listening to his patient etc etc). I know that the term is widely used but to me it just doesn't sit right. Again, no disrespect at all to those who have experienced birthing trauma, just like the people who use the term mean no disrespect to those who have experienced the more conventional definition of the word.

Totally fair enough! Thankyou so much for expressing yourself in such a clear and reasoned way Many people would get defensive and rude. I can totally understand your discomfort.

As to this thread, I'm really enjoying reading it.

[TeniBear]

I've witnessed medical professionals in a birthing situation do as they please regardless of the patients wishes...whilst I would certainly not class that incidence as birth rape, I can easily see how it would come about.

Okies, going back to reading from the shadows now...

Sent from my iPhone so forgive the speelung misstacks

[RockinSAHD]

It's funny you say that, because this is exactly the vibe I get from both you and Rockin - more the latter. By not properly addressing concerns, and being too quick to try and "correct" anything not agreed with, with single line explanations, and being quick to get personally offended stops it being a discussion.

I have always provided reasoning behind what I've posted here, apart from some notable embarrassing exceptions, and I have been patient with you bandying around some pretty extreme hysterics. You do have valid issues and I've been patient in addressing your concerns. As Polly has pointed out most of the medical community are very very concerned about many of the issues your bringing up and don't take injuries or deaths lightly but with a heavy heart.

Once again you've been deeply offensive but find it easy to shrug someone off and claim that they've misunderstood what you've written.

[Yeddi]

Once again you've been deeply offensive but find it easy to shrug someone off and claim that they've misunderstood what you've written.

I find you calling my opinions "hysterics" because they are opposite of yours offensive, and you language in general is belittling.

I'll concede that upon reading that above post, I can see that my talking about attitudes regarding patient treatment, and then talking about your and Polly's attitudes that appeared to fob off rather than address the concerns I've raised could be taken in the wrong way. The problem with adding points after the fact. I'm sorry that you've taken it the wrong way and I could have phrased it better or put it in a different place. However, I do think that the concerns I have raised have been fobbed off by both of you. You, in particular, have either used belittling language, sarcasm, incomplete one sentence explanations or simply not touched on those points. Even now, you would rather enter into a hypocritical and unjustified character assassination of me, then address those points!

[RockinSAHD]

BTW, case point for above post, apparently my opinions are "hysterics" because they are opposite of yours.

-Claiming that HPV definitely does not cause cervical cancer, despite giving evidence to the contrary, yourself!
-Claiming that HCG in vaccines causes infertility, despite the fact that HCG is made by every human brain.

These are just a few hysterical claims (the HCG one was full on hysteria) made with AVN style argument that I have patiently addressed.

But anyhow, where were we. You were asking me to answer some of your concerns from earlier about vaccine safety and I was obliging.

BTW I will be PMing you.