question for delayed/partial and non vaccers

[skybie]

Thanks for that jellybean,
Everything you wrote is amongst the info that i've read which made me make my decision. i find it completely fascinating the SIDS rate in Japan is virtually zero since starting there no vacc till shedule!

[tenar]

Just as a side note - (and I believe you can find 'evidence' to support whatever you wish to) but various studies have found rates of illnesses such as whooping cough to be more prevalent amoung vaccinated children than non-vaccinated children.

Nothing personal to you, but I believe this statement to be absolutely wrong. Please either retract it or post the links to the studies in question, or the references to where they have been published.

This assertion is probably a misunderstanding of (or an intentional misuse of) that oft-repeated thing that I have explained in some detail in other threads, that "more vaccinated children get X-disease than unvaccinated children". Which is perfectly true, but only reflects the fact that most children are (thankfully) vaccinated. It ignores the fact that unvaccinated children are massively over-representated in actual cases of the disease. The point being (other than that many anti-vaccination folk don't seem to understand basic statistics) that if you choose not to vaccinate your child for a disease you place them at much greater risk of catching that disease than if you choose to vaccinate them.

The vaccines for whooping cough etc, as you probably know perfectly well, don't even contain thimerosal etc in them. So that stuff about "oh how awful the additives are" is just irrelevant.

As an aside, I notice that you fail to mention that the autism rate in Japan has increased since they discontinued the MMR vaccine... Which isn't suprising, since all of the evidence suggests that the two things have no relationship. (I wonder whether that is ever mentioned in the websites you are getting your misleading information from?)

How about posting some actual information that is backed up by, (I'm saying it for what feels like the millionth time) studies that have, at the bare minimum, been peer-reviewed and that have preferably been published in high quality journals? Otherwise, everything that you have said is about equivalent to me saying that "I don't vaccinate because the moon is made of green cheese", and should be taken as seriously.

I'm sorry if I come across as too angry about this stuff. I am angry. I am incensed, actually. It would be irresponsible of me not to point out the most glaring pieces of misinformation in discussions like this one. But I am certainly not angry at you or at anyone posting in this thread. I am angry at the people and organizations that promote such disinformation that ends up costing lives. My aim here is to help everyone in this community to understand what the science and research behind vaccinations actually means. So that we can continue the discussion about the pros and cons of vaccination based on arguments that hold weight, not on mythology, outright lies or complete misinterpretation of statistics, risks, and evidence.

[Pretty Butterfly]

I think, and I may be wrong, but there was a massive outbreak of WC in a country that is over 99% vaccinated, I think Lulu posted the real stats on it a few years ago....

It was a huge deadly outbreak, that could not be blamed on non-vaccers, rather that being vac had made no difference at all to the population.

Could you please post the links to credible info on Japans Autism rates please? I too have read masses amounts of how they vac, and how they have the best mortality rate, lowest sids rate, but have not found the Autism rate. Although that is not why I delay my vaccing.
My own Doc agrees with their vac program, and so far we will be vac after age 2. I dont disagree with vac, but I will do it when their immune systems has had a chance to build up some of its own natural immunity.

Jellybean you are right, everyone can find a stat that agrees with them, non and pro vac!!

[Junglemum]

Jellybean you are right, everyone can find a stat that agrees with them, non and pro vac!!

And just to back up Tenar's point, yes you can find statistics, but whether or not they are credible is the important question. Anyone can make up a statistic and post to on a website, but without credible references they mean nothing. Yes there is masses of amounts of information about many things on the net, but not all of what you read is good or true information. It is important to find credible studies that are peer reviewed. Peer reviewed means that paper has been scrutinised by other experts in the field, ensuring people aren't making statistics and things up.

There is a lot os mis-information out there for both sides of the argument. It is difficult to find non biased credible information sometimes. Given that, i found it very difficult to make a decision re vaccinating my children.

[tenar]

I think, and I may be wrong, but there was a massive outbreak of WC in a country that is over 99% vaccinated, I think Lulu posted the real stats on it a few years ago....

I've had a go, and I can't find any evidence or information about this outbreak, or what country it might have been in. Are you sure it was recent? Are you sure that it happened at all - for a modern vaccine it simply isn't credible (anything that ineffective wouldn't be worth spending health $$ on). I guess it's possible that it was an older, less effective vaccine, but even that seems unlikely to me. Vaccines are tested pretty thoroughly.

Please post a link with more information about this one.

Could you please post the links to credible info on Japans Autism rates please? I too have read masses amounts of how they vac, and how they have the best mortality rate, lowest sids rate, but have not found the Autism rate. Although that is not why I delay my vaccing.

Sure (the need for good information from reliable sources certainly goes both ways):

I'm quoting here from Wikipedia, the article on MMR Controversy:

"Japan provided a natural experiment on the subject: combined MMR vaccine was introduced in 1989, but the programme was terminated in 1993 and only single vaccines used thereafter. In March 2005 a study of over 30,000 children (278 cases) born in one district of Yokohama concluded "The incidence of all autistic spectrum disorders (ASD), and of autism, continued to rise after MMR vaccine was discontinued. The incidence of autism was higher in children born after 1992 who were not vaccinated with MMR than in children born before 1992 who were vaccinated. The incidence of autism associated with regression was the same during the use of MMR and after it was discontinued." The authors concluded: "The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.""

The study was published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 46 (6): 572-9., by Honda H, Shimizu Y and Rutter M (2005).

That's only one study. There have been many others done in many countries with similar results (ie no link between MMR vaccine and autism). The whole article is worth studying. It provides references and a history of the controversy for this vaccine.
MMR vaccine controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jellybean you are right, everyone can find a stat that agrees with them, non and pro vac!!

The question to ask yourself (and others) is: how good is the statistic? If published in a peer-reviewed paper of the first rank, it's a lot more credible than if not.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Two things:
One, I couldn't even protect my newborn from a cold AFTER asking my in-laws if there was any sickness in their family of 4 kids before inviting them to a small birthday event for DP (for which there would only be us, MiL and them!). They DID have a sickie who ended up coughing and spluttering and coming too close to DD (hence her snuffly nose and very congested night time breathing) before I realised I'd have to play the 'meanie' and keep her away cos BiL was not careful enough of his niece to be on the ball about his child's hygiene (i.e. covering her mouth and keeping away from the 3 week old!).
Second: there are plenty of other hypotheses about the prevalence of autism in our societies that have nothing to do with vaccinations and make much more sense. In Japan, SIDS has always been virtually non-existent, so I just can't buy that 'it's gone down' since the MMR schedule change. I think that's creativity with existing stats! A more scientifically-sound conclusion for the low/non-SIDS rates is co-sleeping - it's a link that can be generalised into other populations, too.
The fact remains that in the last century, there are so many things about our lifestyles in the West that have changed, that pinning the rise in autism to a vaccination is hopeful, at best. Our reliance on pre-packaged foods gives me greater cause for concern about community health than vaxing.
Just things to take into consideration when making these decisions, without saying what I do or don't do

[skybie]

hi guys.
*please note,i dont want this to turn into a why we should, why we shouldnt debate, ta!*

please, i really dont want this turning into a tennis game of back and forth. my question simply was am i doing the right thing delaying DD2's vaccs with DD1 in day care.
And asking what schedules ppl used and which vaccines they were getting (if they so choose to provide that info)

like ive said i have done my own research and am happy with my decision, its my personal desicion based on what i think. im neither pro or anti vacc, DD1 is fully vaccinated and DD2 will be delayed.

Thank u for all the wonderfull information, but please stop with the back and forth

[Pretty Butterfly]

There is a thread here about the delay vac program.... its older, will have to search for it sweets... Schmickers posted it...

We are delay vaccing till 2. And then we will selectively vac.
All mine have had chicken pox, so wont be getting that one!! I believe the tetnus one is important once a baby is mobile, but not before. Wont be getting MMR, but will get rebeulla for my daughters once they are of child bearing age ect.... I want them tailored to my children, not a one size fits all thing... if I can find the thread, its tells you about the pertinent ones and at what ages it is recommended....

PM 'd you babe.....