"I think sometimes ignorance is bliss"

[Patooties]

I usually keep myself out of these type of discussions, but i'm going to be brave.
I am probably similar to the OP's colleague. When pregnant with dd1, I was happy to follow my Ob's advice, I didn't know that there was any other way to give birth. I didn't read too many stories on what could go wrong - because it petrified me. I was induced due to high blood pressure, and because my Ob was calm about it I didn't worry. Thankfully I had an enjoyable birthing experience. With dd2 it was the same. By the time I was pregnant with dd3 I had found Bellybelly. I stayed with my ob, and once again needed to be induced, but this time I was really scared because I now knew what could go wrong. Thankfully, once again, I had a wonderful birthing experience. So I have to say in my case, ignorance was bliss. I tend to get peeved when I read over and over and how sorry people feel for women with similar attitudes to mine. I'm happy with the way things turned out, and incredibly proud of myself for vaginally birthing 3 gorgeous girls.
Ok - got it out. I'm ready for a whipping

eta - ok, shaking after writing this - should i really feel so uncomfortable voicing my feelings?

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Ignorance is bliss. Just see what I went through for two years after Liebling was born if you want to see what being empowered does for you in a system that lives to disempower women. There were times I wished I knew nothing of BB - although my attitude would still have been "I'm a woman, women give birth, therefore I can give birth so everyone else can just go forth and multiply."

Good luck to your friend. But when I was pg the last thing I wanted to hear about was other people telling me how awful birth is. And should I get pg again if any bugger even thinks about mentioning birth to me I'll wallop them. PG hormones meaning I can't articulate a good reply. I don't care that you had a great birth. I had a crap one and it WASN'T because I was uninformed. Next one will be a freebirth, despite three midwives this year telling me it will result in a dead baby if I do that. Fully informed freebirth. And I don't want opinions, so will just tell people "I don't want to know, ignorance is bliss: I'm just going to go with the flow." Because that's what's going to happen.

And I won't be doing any extra reading up next time either!

[Glamourcide]

JazahMum - NO, you shouldn't AT ALL feel so uncomfortable voicing your thoughts!! I feel pretty much the same - DD1 was induced and I had not done enough research to know the risks involved. I was the one who asked for it, my doctor went along with it, and I nearly died. But, because DD1 was never in danger and I had no idea BB existed, I was okay with how things went because I knew that with all births, there was the potential for things to go seriously wrong, and I was just glad that it was me who was 'hurt' and not my beautiful baby girl. Then I discovered BB and learned more and tbh I'm still a bit angry with myself for not doing more research on inductions before going ahead with it, but I did what I could with the information I could find, and really, until finding BB, I had no idea that my experience was anything other than normal.
I scared the pants off myself when I was pg with DD2, because every story of late loss I read involved babies that were overdue - heart beating strong one minute, mum waiting for labour to start... then waking up the next morning to find the little angel had flown. I was overdue myself and could barely sleep for poking my belly every two minutes to make sure all was well in there - if I'd never had access to a forum like this, I would never have realised that it's not uncommon for overdue babies to be born sleeping, kwim?? So yeah, I agree, in some cases ignorance is indeed bliss! I don't think you should feel at all uncomfortable saying it out loud, especially here - if we know anything, it's that everybody's experiences and feelings are different and I would hope that we all respect those feelings, regardless of our own.

[Sagres]

I don't know if I would say ignorance is bliss for me, I needed some information to work from but I didn't want to be drowning in information either.

I wouldn't assume just because she is using the services of an ob who she trusts she is not informed or going to be taken advantage of. I found that through choosing an ob I could 'hand pick' some one who had similar views to me and who I could talk to and work with. I always felt very comfortable with the decisions my ob and I made together. No my labour didn't happen quite how I would have chosen but that wasn't because I was using an ob, it was a because my body was developing PE and that meant my ob and I had some different decisions to make together.

At the end of the day your collegue could do all the research in the world, be wonderfully well informed and still chose a labour that is influenced by medical interventions, because that is what is OK for her. It isn't what I would choose, it isn't what you would choose, but some people are absolutely fine with that type of birth experience.

[Roryrory]

Jazahmum I know where you are coming from, and Glamour IKWYM about freaking yourself out (I have actually stopped reading certain parts of BB because I get scared - I figure I am aware that things can go wrong, but I don't want to know too many details until it is upon me because statisticallt things do usually work out ok. But as we all know that doesn't help when you are pregnant and worrying yourself silly about prem birth, cords, blood loss, etc.) And Sarges I know what you mean too.

I've decided to drop the whole subject with her but if she asks or it comes up in corversation to say I had a great time with both births for a whole variety of reasons - luck of biology (for both my sons and I), luck in who I chose as care providers, but a good dose of knowledge and confidence.

[bon]

Jazahmum - don't be afraid to voice your feelings hun. Be proud that you had three great births with an Ob you trusted and who made you feel comfortable. Medical intervention does not have to equal a bad birthing experience, and agreeing to something like induction on the recommendation of your health care provider does not necessarily mean you are uninformed or setting yourself up for a bad experience.

I think there is difference between not wanting to hear about other people's birth experiences, or hear about all the things that can possbily go wrong in labour and birth, and not having a clue about the mechanics of how labour and birth work. I think all women, at the very least, need to be informed about normal, physiological labour and birth - how it works and how our bodies are designed to give birth vaginally. And if their health care provider proposes a certain intervention, women are entitled to full disclosure of the reasons, and the risks and benefits of such. That is being informed IMO and the level to which you wish to be informed is a personal thing - some of us are content with the explanations we are given by our doctors/midwives, some of us want to know more.

[Trillian]

I think there is difference between not wanting to hear about other people's birth experiences, or hear about all the things that can possbily go wrong in labour and birth, and not having a clue about the mechanics of how labour and birth work. I think all women, at the very least, need to be informed about normal, physiological labour and birth - how it works and how our bodies are designed to give birth vaginally. And if their health care provider proposes a certain intervention, women are entitled to full disclosure of the reasons, and the risks and benefits of such. That is being informed IMO and the level to which you wish to be informed is a personal thing - some of us are content with the explanations we are given by our doctors/midwives, some of us want to know more.

Bon you sum it up really well.

Jaz, I hope nothing I said made you feel unsure about posting because I do understand.

It's just that I think the majority of women are so uninformed about the potential risks simply because they never get told as Dr's can be cagey buggers and don't always disclose 100% of the information. Women cannot have complete autonomy in birth unless they know all the facts. Before I came here I had no idea about the risks of inductions or c/s's because even though I had had 3 children by then, I was never told about the side effects of syncto inductions - even though I had several of them kwim? I know that sometimes knowing too much can be hard to get out of your head when you just need to focus, but it's that knowledge that can make the difference sometimes.

[Patooties]

hey Trill - not at all. I didn't really mean anyone in particular in this thread - I guess across the board there are some incredibly passionate people ( which is wonderful) that i guess I often feel intimated by. (my choice to allow myself to feel intimated though, so my own problem )

with my own inductions - my Ob didn't tell me all of the things that could go wrong - and I started to do a little reading, but then decided against knowing everything, just because I didn't want to stress myself. It wasn't until I joined here that I was thankful that I didn't know! It may have been a different story if my ob was suggesting induction for no particular reason - then i would have done a bit of research.

[Lulu]

I think there is difference between not wanting to hear about other people's birth experiences, or hear about all the things that can possbily go wrong in labour and birth, and not having a clue about the mechanics of how labour and birth work. I think all women, at the very least, need to be informed about normal, physiological labour and birth - how it works and how our bodies are designed to give birth vaginally. And if their health care provider proposes a certain intervention, women are entitled to full disclosure of the reasons, and the risks and benefits of such. That is being informed IMO and the level to which you wish to be informed is a personal thing - some of us are content with the explanations we are given by our doctors/midwives, some of us want to know more.

Absolutely

[dust]

i can absolutely see why ignorance is bliss.... if she goes in with only the expectation of walking out with a baby then she believes that she wont have false expectations of not screaming down the halls, being strapped to a bed, up in stirrups etc etc... then again she might even end up having a totally unexpected home birth???!!
I had #1 with just a few baby magazines (ok so bout 20 odd magazines) education and all i got out of it that i would be vertically birthing, no drugs and quietly (fits my personality anyways) however when it came to the placenta stuff n the shot i was confused as to what i was getting as a shot.. was it the vit K? LMAO! however with a slow start to milk production started my search on what screwed that up, i was convinced it was whatever they had injected me with! So i guess im saying.. let her take her own journey you never know with #2 etc she may just take up your offer Ignorance is bliss until you find that there is a better alternative and sometimes stubborn people will only learn that lesson the hard way.

[Trillian]

Oh and another thing too, birth is the only area of health care where you never get told the full story and all the risks associated with various interventions by your Dr - if you were looking down the barrel of serious surgery for cancer or organ transplant/heart surgery etc your Dr would fully inform you of every single detail of the procedure they will do and the risk that it carries and also what your possible outcome of success will be - birth isn't afforded that same openess and honesty and thats why women get let down by the 'system'. Thats my biggest issue with women who just leave it all up to the Dr's because they never tell you that inductions in first time mothers have a high percentage of failure that may lead to further intervention (instruments) or c/s or even that induction can also cause uterine rupture. You don't get told that Syncto has some very nasty side effects there is no transparency at all and even for someone who does *know* all this stuff beforehand still has to pull hens teeth to get the info from her Dr.

[bon]

Very true - I was induced with my first two babies, had the syntocinon drip and both times suffered a PPH afterwards. Which I now know is one of the possible side effects of synto - something I was not told either before or after. In fact, I wasn't told anything about any of the possible side effects of the use of syntocinon at any time. Now, even after birthing my third baby with no synto and (surprise surprise) no PPH, the hospital still want me to have a cannula in my hand during labour JIC I haemorrhage again. So they don't acknowledge that it was the synto that caused it.

[Trillian]

yep, me too with my one and only induction I had my one and only PPH. Even though at the time the induction was necessary, I would still have like to have known about it just so I knew that the induction could have been a contributing factor in it instead of just being told it was "one of those things that about 1 in 25 women will have' even my Dr was really shaken by it and took us aside a few days after her birth to tell us how concerned he was about me and that it was quite a serious event. And I thought he was one of the 'good guys' too.

[Cassius2]

in response to the original post, i reckon leave it to the wayside for now. tell her she is strong and beautiful and wish her all the best for the birth! (oh and tell her to visit BB sometime LOL!)

what i love about the BOBB is that it is not a horror movie. despite the fact that i went down the conventional, potentially high interventionist route of a private hospital and OB etc, the film allowed me to feel (i saw it 4 months after DD was born..at the BB screening) for the first time that what i did in birthing my daughter was beautiful and powerful (something that i felt was taken away from me by the hospital where birth is a business and we are all just objects on the treadmill popping one after the other). because i guess the overall message of the film is that birth can be and is empowering, and that it is time for us women to take back the power and claim birth for what it is: our baby, our choice. because at the end of the day being informed provides choice. without the women who have gone before us demanding choice there may never of been precedents of having babies in recovery post C-section, there may never of been rooming in at hospitals, let alone waterbirths!

[sunshine_sieben]

I haven't read all the responses but I wanted to share my mum's side of things.
She was a little taken a back when she realised how much research I was doing on birth and told me that I was better off not reading anything. i did not understand her attitude until she explained. She is very pro-natural-birth. She was a homebirth herself and both her children were natural, no pain relief, although my brother was induced. she has the attitude that birth is normal and intervention is rarely needed. However, when she was pregnant for the first time, people started giving advice and she started reading about birth. and the picture being painted was grim. That birth was scary, painful and dangerous and that intervention is something yolu shouldn't do without. That's when she decided that she didn't want to hear/read anymore and started saying to people that "ignorance is bliss", just to shut them up. The system back then in germany wasn't as hositle as it seems to be in Australia atm, so she got the natural births that she believed were possible. When I explained tro her how hostile the system is here, she understood why I did so much research.

So I guess my point is that if the alternative to ignorance is to let people freak you out about the pain and danger of birthing, then yes, ignorance is bliss. In a perfect world, where your caretaker is the most knowledgeable and trustworthy and really only has YOUR best interest at heart, then you don't need to educate yourself.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world...

Sasa

[Bathsheba]

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if I am just repeating. Rory I'm all for tailoring the approach according to the person. I don't really think there is a stock standard response to this... a lot depends on her personality. I generally reserve advice until I know someone enough to predict their reaction somewhat. I know how frustrating it can be when you have experience in an area of life and you see people who don't have much headed in a risky direction. It's your call ultimately (using your intuition) how far to go. I believe that sometimes things are best left alone despite the apparent risk because the person involved just isn't receptive and therefore will probably only learn through experience, as hard as that might be to watch. You can try changing tack... instead of persuing her you can play a bit of a mind game and boycott the whole topic for a while... don't talk about the whole subject at all... see if she creeps back with her feelers out. This often works, kinda reverse psychology. Don't know if you're up for that though LOL I know you are pretty straight down the line which is why i like you!

Is there any part of life that if you suggested to her that "ignorance is bliss" she would freak out? Would she feel the same way about eating something that might or might not harm her baby? "Oh we went out for lunch the other day and I ordered a salad... it was out on display at room temperature and could have been a risk for listeria... I don't know... oh well... ignorance is bliss"? If you wanted to push the issue you could use that example to prove that she does actually care about optimizing the chances of a safe and healthy birth for her baby But I suspect that's probably not the way to go if you want to preserve the friendship. In some ways people resent you more if you are right than if you didn't say anything at all.

Hmmm... follow you gut matey. Wish her well. She is responsible for herself and her baby. Maybe tell her to Google "BellyBelly"

[HollyC]

I guess it is just frustrating when someone brushes off something that is important to us personally.

To reiterate what many people have said.... ignorance is bliss doesn't necessarily mean that this woman is uninformed or will make poor decisions. Sometimes there are just aspects of birth that we don't feel we want to know about.

My sister has the attitude of just doing whatever her doctor says and thinks that I'm crazy for doing my own research or questioning him (we have the same doctor). She is perfectly fine with this approach and thinks that birth is an unpleasant but necessary experience if you want a baby. I don't agree with this, but is she wrong? No, she isn't. It is her opinion and she is entitled to it. Now if I could just stop her trying to force her opinion on me!

One thing that no one has mentioned.... some people feel they need a doctor to tell them what to do. They just want to put their trust in someone else, someone who they believe knows all the answers. To take this responsibility on themselves is just too scary. I certainly don't agree with this, but it is the way some people feel.