How much would you be willing to try if you were overdue?

[Arimeh]

I wonder what the withdrawals would be for a baby though if you only had it as a once off? So in theory, bush weed (not hydro), eaten so not taken with tobacco - and only once? Would that cause much of a withdrawal for them? How much would you have to take before withdrawals started to occur once they were outside your body? Plus with the breastmilk - how long would it remain in that?

All very interesting questions.

Well. I think they are anyway! lol

[Maruschke]

I wonder what the withdrawals would be for a baby though if you only had it as a once off? So in theory, bush weed (not hydro), eaten so not taken with tobacco - and only once? Would that cause much of a withdrawal for them? How much would you have to take before withdrawals started to occur once they were outside your body? Plus with the breastmilk - how long would it remain in that?

All very interesting questions.

Well. I think they are anyway! lol

Interestingly enough, it seems that enjoying a bong could boost milk supply (thank you google).

Another similar question... if anxiety inhibits let-down and therefore breastfeeding, and it could be shown that the traces of THC in the breastmilk did not harm the baby, would you do it? There was a discussion elsewhere about the EBM of smokers compared with formula, I wonder how the EBM of tokers stacks up? (No judgement here at all, just curiousity!)

[rufalina]

The active component of marijuana, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is fat soluble and is rapidly distributed into brain and adipose (fatty) tissue. The analysis of breastmilk in chronic heavy marijuana users shows an eightfold accumulation in breastmilk compared to plasma. Infants exposed to marijuana through breastmilk will test positive in urine screens for two to three weeks.

Breastfeeding infants absorb and metabolise THC and their exposure occurs at a time when growth and development, particularly glial and myelin formation in the central nervous system, is progressing at a rapid rate (Tennes et al 1985; Astley & Little 1990). Animal studies have shown that structural changes occur in the brain cells of newborn animals exposed to marijuana through their mother's milk. Marijuana purportedly impairs DNA and RNA formation. Although long-term studies have not been completed, results observed in humans suggest serious and long lasting effects (Astley & Little 1990).

The use of marijuana by breastfeeding mothers is contraindicated by the American Academy of Pediatrics. The long-term effects of early exposure, especially on the infant's rapidly-developing brain are unknown. Breastfeeding mothers should be advised not to smoke. It has been suggested that breastfeeding should be avoided if the mother is a heavy user and withheld for several hours after occasional use. Measures should be taken to reduce the infant's exposure to sidestream smoke as discussed previously.

From ABA (And I have cut it down a bit)... Obviously that is more long term and frequent users... but that last bit in the first paragraph was interesting... But again, if it was only one hit, once, then who knows the effect.... .... ... ... "withheld for several hours after occasional use" ... so using it to induce labour, may possibly not transmitted in the breastmilk depending on timing and length of labour??? Dunno...

Got anything else???

[Arimeh]

I found this:-

Drugs in pregnancy and lactation. Briggs, Freeman and Yaffe. Ed Williams and Wilkins, 1990.

Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (TCH), the main active ingredient of marijuana, is excreted into breastmilk. Analysis of THC and two metabolites, 11-hydroxy-THC and 9-carboxy-THC, were conducted on the milk of two women who had been nursing for 7 and 8 months, respectively, and who smoked marijuana frequently (69). A THC concentration of 105 ng/ml, but no metabolises, was found in the milk of the woman smoking one pipe of marijuana daily. In the second woman, who smoked seven pipes/day, concentrations of THC, 11-hydroxy-THC, and 9-carboxy-THC were 340 ng/ml, 4 ng/ml, and none, respectively. The analysis was repeated in the second mother, approximately 1 hour after the last use of marijuana, using simultaneously obtained samples of milk and plasma. Concentrations (in ng/ml) of the active ingredient and metabolites in milk and plasma (ratios shown in parenthesis) were 60.3 and 7.2 (8.4), 1.1 and 2.5 (0.4), and 1.6 and 19 (0.08), respectively. The marked differences in THC found between the milk samples was thought to be due to the amount of marijuana smoked and the interval between smoking and sample collection. A total fecal sample from the infant yielded levels of 347 ng of THC, 67 ng of 11-hydroxy-THC, and 611 ng of 9-carboxy-THC. Due to the large concentration of metabolites, the authors interpreted this as evidence that the nursing infant was absorbing and metabolizing the THC from the milk. In spite of the evidence that the fat soluble THC was concentrated in breastmilk, both nursing infants were developing normally.

In animals, THC decreases the amount of milk produced by suppressing the production of prolactin and, possibly, by a direct action on the mammary glands (42) While data on this effect are not available in humans, maternal marijuana use does not seem grossly to affect the nursing infant. In 27 infants evaluated at 1 year of age, who were exposed to marijuana via the milk, compared to 35 nonexposed infants, no significant differences were found in terms of age at weaning, growth, and mental or motor development.

Although no adverse effects of marijuana exposure from breastmilk have been reported, follow-up of these infants is inadequate At the present time, the long term effects of this exposure are unknown and additional research to determine these effects, if any, is warranted. The American Academy of Pediatrics considers the use of marijuana during breastfeeding to be contraindicated.

Breastfeeding and drug exposure. CR Howard and RA Lawrence. Obstetric Gynecol Clin of North America 1998; 25(1): 195-217.

Animal studies indicate that THC reduces prolactin levels. Data on this effect, however, are not available in humans. Marihuana appears in human milk as THC, which is poorly absorbed in this form; however; with prolonged exposure, the compound may cause an infant to be lethargic and to feed less frequently and for shorter periods of time. In infants evaluated at 1 year of age, no differences were found in growth or mental or motor development when infants exposed to marihuana in breast milk were compared with non-exposed infants. Follow-up of these infants, however, has been limited, and long-term effects of marihuana exposure through breastmilk are unknown.

Maternal judgment may be impaired, and secondary behavioral changes may interfere with a mother's ability to care for her infant or to breastfeed adequately. As is true for cigarette smoking, passive exposure to marihuana poses additional risks to the infant. The American Academy of Pediatrics considers the use of marihuana during breastfeeding to be contraindicated.
====

Dr. Thomas Hale (pediatrician and pharmacist) has been quoted as saying the marijuana tends to be sequestered in peripheral compartments, that THC does enter milk easily, but due to low concentration in the maternal plasma, the absolute dose to the infant is low. If the mom smokes occasionally, she should expect that only small levels will be transferred to the infant, probably subclinical amounts, which is why the studies show no developmental abnormalities. The infant will show a positive drug screen, but it is not known for how long; probably correlates with the maternal dose ingested.

There is difficulty with many studies as the mothers are using other drugs along with marijuana. So one can not ascribe any negative effects to any one particular drug.

A study described in Pediatrics 1994; 93:254-260, (Dreher MC, Nugent K and Hudgins R) compared the babies of Rastafarian mothers (smoking up to 5 joints a day) and non-smoking controls. Both groups of mothers were breastfeeding. After one month, the babies of the heavily smoking mothers scored better on the developmental testing done. The speculation was that the Rastafarian mothers had better social networking and support for being new mothers.
All this evidence goes against the mainstream belief that marijuana is bad.

----

So say you were to use it to induce labour - you wouldn't have a breastmilk risk because your milk hadn't come in yet?

[Maruschke]

So say you were to use it to induce labour - you wouldn't have a breastmilk risk because your milk hadn't come in yet?

Yep, but what about colostrum?

[rufalina]

Yeah I agree it would be in the colostrum, and you want baby to boob asap...

It is quite hard Mel, as everything I can find seems to be about the long term risks and issues, not a quick once off use as a "herbal induction" ...

Maybe talking to a herbalist or nautropath might elicit a good response?

[Arimeh]

Hmm true true....

Of course this was all hypothetical

[Maruschke]

Newborns don't actualy get that much colostrum though??? I wonder if it is so slight it is ok. Also, if you labour for say 8 hours, whether that is long enough anyway to get it out of your system?

[Lulu]

Pass the duchie to the left hand side, I say pass the duchie to the left hand side.....

[Ballerina]

Woah! So much has happened since I've been out

I'm glad to see all the referencing - it will def. make some compelling reading.

Apologies for reading your first post incorrectly Arimeh. I think you may have misconstrued what I was saying about your friend. I'm not at all interested in what she gets up to recreationally - I'm just interested in the impact that it will have on an unborn child and if there is any future impact on that child.

Will read on and see where this thread takes me......

[Ballerina]

Here's one from the ABA - this is referring to regular rather than recreational. References were loooong so have attached URL Australian Breastfeeding Association - Breastfeeding and the use of recreational drugs - alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana


Breastfeeding and the use of recreational drugs - alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana

Janet Liston B Pharm

Abstract

This paper both reviews the current literature and explores anecdotal information as reported by Nursing Mothers' (now Australian Breastfeeding Association) breastfeeding counsellors relating to breastfeeding and the use of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana. All of these drugs do enter breastmilk to some extent and can have a detrimental effect on the production, volume, composition and ejection of breastmilk, as well as a direct adverse effect on the infant. Breastfeeding mothers should be encouraged to restrict their intake of these so-called recreational drugs. It is acknowledged that this is a particularly stressful period in a mother's life and that she may need additional support and practical suggestions to limit the exposure of these drugs to the infant.

Breastfeeding Review 1998; 6(2): 27-30

MARIJUANA

The active component of marijuana, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is fat soluble and is rapidly distributed into brain and adipose (fatty) tissue. The analysis of breastmilk in chronic heavy marijuana users shows an eightfold accumulation in breastmilk compared to plasma. Infants exposed to marijuana through breastmilk will test positive in urine screens for two to three weeks.

Breastfeeding infants absorb and metabolise THC and their exposure occurs at a time when growth and development, particularly glial and myelin formation in the central nervous system, is progressing at a rapid rate (Tennes et al 1985; Astley & Little 1990). Animal studies have shown that structural changes occur in the brain cells of newborn animals exposed to marijuana through their mother's milk. Marijuana purportedly impairs DNA and RNA formation. Although long-term studies have not been completed, results observed in humans suggest serious and long lasting effects (Astley & Little 1990).

If the mother smokes marijuana while breastfeeding or in the presence of the infant, there is also the effect of the sidestream smoke to be considered. Infants exposed to marijuana through breastmilk often exhibit signs of sedation, weakness and poor feeding patterns. Marijuana has been implicated in the reduction of basal prolactin levels and therefore, in possible decreased milk production.

Marijuana use causes reality distortion, which may make it hard to cope with an emergency situation, difficulty in performing small motor activity and after the 'high' wears off, a desire for sleep, usually quite deep, in which the mother may be unresponsive to her baby's needs.

The use of marijuana by breastfeeding mothers is contraindicated by the American Academy of Pediatrics. The long-term effects of early exposure, especially on the infant's rapidly-developing brain are unknown. Breastfeeding mothers should be advised not to smoke. It has been suggested that breastfeeding should be avoided if the mother is a heavy user and withheld for several hours after occasional use. Measures should be taken to reduce the infant's exposure to sidestream smoke as discussed previously.
CONCLUSION

In addition to the medical issue, there are also broader social issues in this discussion of breastfeeding and the use of recreational drugs. These encompass the legal ramifications and moral obligations of such use. In this age of increasing litigation, there may be potential for the future generation to apportion blame on the present generation for any harm that the mother's actions may be seen to have had on an infant. Already the Family Court is considering the issues of smoking, alcohol and other drugs in relation to the residence and contact of infants. Breastfeeding mothers should be encouraged to restrict their intake of these so-called recreational drugs. It should be acknowledged that this is a particularly stressful period in a mother's life and that she may need additional support and practical suggestions to limit the exposure of these drugs to the infant. In all cases it should be stressed that while the problem is the mother's use of these drugs while breastfeeding, the choice should be to give up the drug rather than to give up breastfeeding.

Copyright ? 1998 Australian Breastfeeding Association

[Lulu]

A study described in Pediatrics 1994; 93:254-260, (Dreher MC, Nugent K and Hudgins R) compared the babies of Rastafarian mothers (smoking up to 5 joints a day) and non-smoking controls. Both groups of mothers were breastfeeding. After one month, the babies of the heavily smoking mothers scored better on the developmental testing done. The speculation was that the Rastafarian mothers had better social networking and support for being new mothers.
All this evidence goes against the mainstream belief that marijuana is bad.

I was being a bit silly before, but I don't want this part to be lost in all the info - even though it isn't what the thread is about.

[Ballerina]

It is extremely interesting Lulu - I relish reading studies like that.

And yes. I've hijacked the thread and taken it off topic with all my questions...sorry all.

[Muffy]

This makes a fascinating read.. thanks mel

[Lulu]

Oh and I meant the social networking bit!

[Footsteps]

im on morphine for pain relief (adhesions) but after 3 years my doc said to me that if i found something to help he wouldnt disagree (longest iv been home in one go is 3 months in 3 yrs) pot helps me relax but i wouldnt use it in labour etc....its a interesting subject...i think there is some truth in that it relaxes your body and mind.
xxx

[Bathsheba]

After reading all this I think that if society had collapsed and prescribed drugs were not available but I had a marijuana plant in my backyard I and if I or another woman was feeling anxious to the point of labour being dangerously delayed I would either ingest a small amount or offer a small amount to the woman. I think it's all about the weight of risk. I probably wouldn't take marijuana if I had access to proper Western medical care mainly because the affects on the baby are unknown.

However when i think of the bigger picture of harmful chemicals in a newborns life I personally are more concerned about the extremely harmful chemical ****tail a baby gets every time they are driven in a car... especially if it is on a daily basis. So... to me the minute amount of residual chemical resulting from ingesting a small amount (I'm talking maybe a single dried leaf) and that of the much larger chemicals breathed in in a car driving in heavy traffic (including trace amounts of heavy metals that can't be eliminated from the body): i would think the once used marijuana chemical would be safer. THAT is how dangerous I believe fumes inside a car are to us, especially newborns. Even with your windows wound up they still get in The inside of a car is a very bad place chemically speaking. Everything's relative and I just think people can sometimes over emphasis the risk with doing something once compared to the daily risk you take as part of your normal routine.

[JellyBean]

Mmmm- I find this rather interesting as I majored in drug studies at uni and we looked at the uses for medicinal cannabis - (which is a centuries old practice I might add!). It's most common medicinal use today is to releive pain and increase appetite in AIDS patients.
Here is an extract from the Wikipedia for medicinal cannabis:

Medicinal use of cannabis is legal in a limited number of territories worldwide, including Canada, Austria, the Netherlands, Spain, Israel, Finland and Portugal. In the US, fourteen states have recognized medical marijuana: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington;[6][7] although California, New Mexico and Rhode Island are currently the only states to utilize "dispensaries" to sell medical cannabis.

There are currently seven US states considering medical marijuana bills in their state legislatures: Illinois, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey New York and North Carolina.[8] South Dakota also has several petitions in interest of medical marijuana legalization.[9]

Cannabis has a long history of medicinal use in many cultures. The US Government as represented by the Health and Human Services Division, holds a patent for medical marijuana.[10] Yet, medical cannabis remains a controversial issue worldwide.

I am not 'pro-cannabis' - and I choose not to use it, but I believe society is a bit out of balance when it comes to the stigma associated with illegal as opposed to legal drugs - the former which are formulated using extracts of natural drugs and adding a few synthetic chemicals so that they can be patented for a very large profit. Pethidine, for example, is an opiate drug. It has been chemically altered or synthesised, but by structure and action it is classified as an opiate drug - it has the same effect on the brain, central nervous system and the baby in the womb as heroin and its patented counterparts do - methadone, morphine etc. The use of pethidine during labour is actually extremely controversial and many health professionals advise against it due to the risks posed to the unborn child.
Similarly, athletes are forbidden from taking cough medicine for months leading up to competition, for if traces of it are still in their system they will test positive to heroin. And most of us know that the magic ingredient pseudoephedrine in cold and flu tablets is basically legalised, medicalised amphetamine, or speed. Hence why we are now required to show identification and have our details recorded if we purchase drugs with this ingredient at a chemist- as many people now use crushed pseudephedrine to sell illegally as speed. A regular speed user wouldn't know the difference.

Another example is the current treatment for Swine Flu - the Tamiflu drug. This is derived from the ancient Chinese herb Star Anise - which has been used for centuries in China as natural anti-viral medicine. You can buy it in the supermarket and add it to your cooking. However, now that big pharma has bought hoardes of it and is modifying it and adding a couple of synthetic chemicals in the mix, it can be patented as an entirely new 'wonder drug' and a small bunch of people will become very rich indeed!!!
Sorry to rave on, but I just wanted to extend this interesting topic a little further.....