Would you give birth in a midwifery led unit?

[BellyBelly]

This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate. This is the joy of the internet, we can exchange experiences and learn. I haven't heard anyone call doctors crap or useless etc. Everyone has clearly said they have a place so I see no reason to change the direction of the conversation. Glad you are happy with your care - just as women should be allowed to have obstetric care and be happy with it, so should women who want midwifery care. See you have what you want so why should it matter? Clearly 74% of women in this poll want access to midwifery led care and I can tell you, only 3% of Victorian women give birth in a birth centre, 0.4% born before arrival, 0.3% planned homebirths and the rest hospital. HUGE difference based on this poll. Thats over 96% in hospital, obstetric based care. When 74% are saying we want something else. Not such a big deal when its not what you want isnt it? What if we took away obstetric care? Ooooh wouldnt there be a huge uproar then!

Women wanting midwifery care should be angry! They dont get THEIR choice.

[Sass]

This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate.

I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.

Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.

If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.

[MantaRay]

Kuraiza, I totally understand where you are coming from. When I was pg with my first, I had the same opinion. Nothing but an ob for me - that's where you get the best care, right? Nothing like knowing the person who will be delivering your baby, right? I get how you feel hun, I truly do. And you know what, I had a truly great ob too, one of the very best I would say! And I would still say that.

So what changed my mind about mw vs ob? My first birth actually. DS1 decided to arrive on a Friday night/Sat morning when my ob wasn't on call. The ob who was on call is also a pretty good ob, but he had already had a cs and a vb before me, and another woman in labour. The poor guy was probably exhausted and wanting to catch every little bit of sleep he could over the weekend. So, I copped the cascade of interventions.

First my waters were broken. This caused sudden, intense contractions (and I was having a back labour too for some reason). And because these pains hit while I was lying on my back being monitored, I wasn't dealing with it well. The anaestitist was there having just done a cs, and was about to leave, so I was pressured into an epidural with the "it's now or never" line and being told I would be in that much pain for at least 8 more hours (if they had read my file they would have known that my ob was expecting me to have a quick labour like my mum, and in fact I did have quick labours so the 8 hours was rubbish). So I gave in to pressure and had the epidural. I warned them I had low bp and sure enough that made it worse. Labour slowed, baby went into distress and I couldn't even raise my head without feeling like I was going to pass out. So flat on my back I pushed without feeling. I ended up needing forceps, an episiotomy, therefore stitches. I had a lot of pain afterwards from that and also other problems which I won't go into here.

Having since had a 3 hour labour in a conduicive and comfortable position, without an epidural, I know now what labour can, and should be like. And how insidious the cascade of interventions is. And this is with an ob who is definitely one of the better ones!!

Kuraiza, I truly hope that you have a better experience than me.

[Freya]

First my waters were broken. This caused sudden, intense contractions (and I was having a back labour too for some reason). And because these pains hit while I was lying on my back being monitored, I wasn't dealing with it well. The anaestitist was there having just done a cs, and was about to leave, so I was pressured into an epidural with the "it's now or never" line and being told I would be in that much pain for at least 8 more hours (if they had read my file they would have known that my ob was expecting me to have a quick labour like my mum, and in fact I did have quick labours so the 8 hours was rubbish).

I had a similar experience BUT it was midwives instead of my OB. I was a first timer, they didnt listen to me telling them I needed to push because "first labours take a LONG time" so I asked for an epi as I was exhausted and scared I would crash out and end up with a c/s. It was only the anaesthesist telling them to listen to me and check dialation that showed them I was ready to push. Obviously I did not have the epi but what would have happened if I had of because the anaesthesist didnt care about anything but getting $$$ out of me for pain relief? So it goes both ways really. I think what situations like this really show is that medical birthing professionals (Midwives & OBs) have gotten so used to women being blind in birthing choices and information that when they come across someone who is informed, they just dont "hear" it so to speak.

I also just want to say that I have never seen Kelly or any of the mods berate or belittle a person for choosing OB care and intervention. BB and a majority of women using it are all about INFORMED CHOICES not bullying people into having natural births.

[Julie Doula]

I also just want to say that I have never seen Kelly or any of the mods berate or belittle a person for choosing OB care and intervention. BB and a majority of women using it are all about INFORMED CHOICES not bullying people into having natural births.

I've seen Kelly get flak for supporting women women who choose/prefer obstetric care. And for supporting women who get bullied into obstetric care. Seems like she gets it from all sides! What she has done is create a forum community that supports informed choice, and people's individual journeys towards more informed choice. Birth is always going to be a hotly debated topic, but to go against the tide of mainstream opinion in a medicalised culture takes some courage. I don't think Kelly or any of the other mods here would say there is only one right way or best way. But opening up the menu a bit, sharing stories, and making the info & knowlegde out there that much more acccessible is all good. It takes guts to open up discussion where there are naturally going to be many & varied opinions.

[DisGirl]

I went through my local hospital, but in a program where I was looked after the one midwife and a backup. I had them both all through my pre-natal care, one was with me through my entire labour (well once I went to hospital) and then they alternately came to visit me at home for two weeks after the birth. I had complications and an ob came in to help get DS out (cord wrapped around his neck twice constricting the cord with each contraction and not letting him progress) in the end, but my midwife did a wonderful job monitoring me and keeping me informed and calm throughout it all.

I'm in the same program again with this bub and wouldn't have it any other way, but knowing that the OB will be nearby is a reassurance to me.

[buliej]

Hi

I replied earlier that I wanted an OB because I am over 40, it would be if things work and IVF pregnancy (although I've read that shouldn't matter), and it could be a multiple pregnancy (I'd obviously know this in advance, but it would be a factor). However, I've found reading these posts interesting and informative - especially the recent one about having some follow-up visits - this is very appealing. If there was a program that combined both OB and mid-wife care, I'd definitely explore - my sister in the US had a doula and she loved it - but I have no idea how to explore this here and my Aus network is somewhat limited (I'm an American ex-pat) and I am reluctant to use anyone who doesn't come highly recommended from a "trusted source"...so I guess this leaves me ...confused!

[Schmickers]

I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.

Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.

If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.

Sass,

I have just checked the records, and no posts have been edited or moderated from this thread. We have also not thus far had to post any warnings to the thread. Discussion has been civilised, though passionate at times. Your only contribution to the thread was to discuss your own experience, and your more recent post I quoted above.

I think you perhaps miss BellyBelly's point? Saying "if you don't like what you hear, don't participate" does not equate to "If you don't agree with what you hear, don't participate". We have had men and women from all walks and all viewpoints post to this thread to voice their opinions, and it has sparked some interesting, and I think very valuable debate. As yet, I am not aware of anyone who has been unfairly criticised or excluded from this thread. Any concerns that the Mod team have been made aware of have been dealt with in the best possible way - through intelligent debate. It is certainly true that the prevailing viewpoint is that midwifery-led birthing services are a great option and that the overwhelming majority of voters in the poll, and respondents to the thread, would choose that option. That does not mean that people who would not choose that option should leave the thread; on tbhe contrary, that is exactly what this thread is for, examining both sides of the argument and testing whether the claims of Dr. Mourik hold true when applies to a community of well educated, well informed men and women. The entire crux of this thread, indeed, illustrates that this is not the case.

Sass, if you have any specific concerns, I encourage you to contact myself (schmickers@bellybelly.com.au) or any of the other moderators. Often the quickest way to do so is to use the "Report Thread" button at the top of the post that concerns you. But making spurious claims that this forum is militant and oppresses dissenting opinions does not add to the discussion. Whether your viewpoint agrees or disagrees with the majority view, you are welcome to participate here.

[briggsy's girl]

i think Kel has been seriously taken out of context with her comment :

This is a great discussion... if you don't like what you hear you don't have to participate.

it was in response to someone telling people to stop scare mongering as they're a first time mom-to-be, telling people that simply relaxing will make their negative experiences not seem so bad:

Perhaps all these women having negative experiences would have a much better time if they could relax. White-coat syndrome is a real syndrome and you people who keep yapping about how awful doctors are really aren't helping, you're creating a negative perspective on something that needn't be so bad.

i think it's a pretty simple thought process - if you're coming in to read a thread that you don't agree with, a thread that creates anxiety in you - simply CHOOSE not to read!! this whole discussion is about why people should be able to CHOOSE their mode of care. there has been no shutting down of pro-ob post, there has simply been response to points raised. this is obviously an emotive topic for so many people - there are those who have birthed the way they wanted, those that have been through traumatic births, and those of us who haven't been there yet - everyone comes from a different background, a different experience. and everyone will have a very different view point on what THEIR ideal birthing experience is/would be.

we all have choices - and if someone doesn't want to read about peoples negative experiences, they don't need to open the thread again...

[Sass]

I'm sorry - you can't see how "if you don't like it then don't participate" has connotations of being unwelcoming to people with dissenting opinions? What about "if you don't like it then post your reasoning why and maybe we can come to some sort of understanding"?

From a man who can extrapolate an accusation of an oppressing regime on a forum that modifies and deletes posts from a comment that it's unwelcoming to opposing viewpoints (based on a comment from the forum creator) I find that very hard to believe.

Also, if you really believe that that was what I was saying why would you offer a solution of reporting a post (by the forum creator) to the moderators of a forum that I believe is oppressive and deletes or modifies anything that they disagree with? It doesn't even begin to make sense.

Regardless, I'm not here for a flamewar. I chose to not participate on these boards after I first joined because of the vibe I got -whether correct or not - from many of the posts I read that any opinion other than the 'party line' was unwelcome here.

I came back in response to the email sent to forum members because I wanted to participate in the poll and maybe add my experiences in NSW to the anecdotal evidence. Within a page of me posting there was a response from the forum creator that backed up my previously held opinion. Your further post has just compounded that opinion.

I posted my comment before to show kuraiza that there were some posters that appreciated her perspective even if they don't hold the same opinions and because I assumed, perhaps erroneously, that BellyBelly staff may like to know why some people don't stick around here.

I will cede that the last sentence in my post was unnecessarily inflammatory but it was posted as a kneejerk response to the disgust I felt at BellyBelly's comment. I was actually coming back to edit it out having had a chance to cool down and reflect that it was probably not appropriate but found your post and here we are.

I'll not post again and hope that the board can get back to the original topic, which is certainly more worthy of discussion.

[Cassius2]

I think that there has been a bit of argy bargy on this forum. and i think there is quite a negative vibe going ATM.

I voted that I would go for Midwife-led care, because I honestly think that for a normal healthy pregnancy and birth that is what is needed and i wish i had that option.

I don't really like reading posts that tell me that my choice to go for an OB for the birth of my DD was because i chose to 'submit to what they're (women like me i guess!) told and be grateful for it'. I think this is really mean. especially in a country that doesnt have real options for women in birth. Like i said before, I chose to go private and OB as I knew that i could have a water-birth, that the maternity centre was run on midwife continuity of care and that there were lactation consultants that could come 24/7 to any woman staying there. This was as close as I could come to my ideal. no, it wasnt ideal as i would have loved my DH and family be able to have stayed with me for more than 2 nights, but it was the best option that was available. Not every person going through an OB is naive or submissive. we just try to work out the best possible path available to us.

I hate that what i took to be an empowering birth is being thrown back at me here as mere submission to the establishment. I know that there is no personal attack happening, but flippant comments really cut deep whether personally addressed or generally. I had a natural, no intervention birth surrounded by my loved ones. yeah my OB was there but he wasnt making me 'submit' to what he was saying, in fact he wasnt really saying much, just smiling like a fool and letting me get on with it (while the midwife applied my lip gloss ).

Please, let us advocate for the right to choose. let's advocate for funding for midwife led centres.

[BellyBelly]

I have nothing further to add to what I already have posted from the perspective of this topic, I think everything has been said. Like Schmickers has said and I will reiterate, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about things and there is a process here where we welcome contact from you if you have a problem with a particular post, or you can use the report button if you want a post to be considered to be edited or whatever.

This forum isn't for everyone, each forum has it's 'theme' and community and I can tell you a load of women love it here, we are one of the biggest websites in Australia and proudly different from all the rest, which will not change. We all need to find where we feel comfortable and stick with it - no-one wants an all out war. So by people sticking with their 'cheersquads' everyone is happy. Some people don't like to be challenged and some people find it too hard to deal with self created guilt. It's an emotion you can only create yourself, like anger or whatever, all up to interpretation. Much too hard to look in the mirror, it's very confronting.

[~Raven~]

I voted that I would prefer to birth with midwifery led care. Unfortunatley for me I am deemed a "higher risk" due to previous retained placenta and PPH so I am unable to, even though I have since had a totally uncomplicated birth, it is still a reason for me not to be accepted.

I can dig that! Seeing that I am classed as a higher risk, I would be one of those women who need to have quick and easy access to an OB if the same thing were to happen again. Therefore while my first preference of choice how I birth cannot be, I need to make sure that my choices in relation to what happens are heard - hence birth plan and communication between myself, the OB and the midwife who will be on shift when I present to the hospital in labour.

As a first time mum all I cared about was having a private room to myself and as I had PHI then that's what I got, because lets face it, who would pay for PHI and not use it! That then goes hand in hand with engaging the services of an OB. There is no choice AT ALL through the private system.
Wouldn't it be grand if you could have midwifery led care in the hospital of your choice (public or private or birth centre) where the OB's are about (somewhere near but not in the same room as...) to ease everyones mind and come in if and when they are needed to do their thing.

I am very lucky in that I have a great OB who is gentle and has a knack for putting my mind at ease. From what I have read on this and other forums (and seen in real life working as a birth photographer!) he is a rare breed indeed.
Women that share their experiences are not scare mongering at all. They have been scarred and are sharing to help others be aware. Take it all on board and decide because what you have here is a fantastic resource! There was no BellyBelly about when I had my first baby. I didn't have the internet connected and I don't think it even occurred to me to look up stuff about birth online down at the library. I was given a few hand me down books from friends and that was the extent of my birthing education until I started ante-natal classes. Then it was all about what excercises to do and what drugs will be on offer. Nothing about real women and what they have been through!

[Inanna]

I haven't been able to read through from the beginning - as I have had a busy weekend.

I voted YES! I see from what I have read that there has been some hearty debate - I love that we do that here on BB. That we put our thoughts and feelings out there and speak up about how we feel.

Now, I planned a homebirth with my first child. We transferred to hospital after 24 hours of labour - I actually lost a lot of faith in my midwife - and I didn't feel "safe" with her in my labour. I was bullied, I was all but called a fool by the obs (now a prominent private obs in Brisbane) who received me. I was even asked to sign my chart that I was undertaking a vaginal birth against his judgement. Aaah but the midwives that night will forever be indellible upon my mind and soul. In her thick Irish accent she looked into my eyes and said: "You can do this woman" - "and I will help". So with the advocacy of that midwife and my own knowledge of birth and belief in my body I birthed my baby safely into my hands.

I chose a birth centre birth for my next two children - a beautiful midwife - who remains in my heart also. My babies wwere born into their fathers hands - only his touching theirs and then my own for the first half hour of life. My placentas I birthed in there own good and gracious time,.

My next child was born into the water in a private hospital. But I chose my midwife and I chose an obstetrician who would agree to wait outside - only to enter my sacred birthing space if the skills of his surgical hands were required. He agreed and the smile and hug I received as he welcomed my daughter and congratulated me in the afterglow of birth when wer were both tucked up safely will be forever indellibly etched on my soul.

He was the man who removed my next child from my womb - my daughter died at 16 ish weeks - I knew I was safe and I knew my childs body would be respected by his hands and heart.

My next child - a son also died in utero - I laboured for 12 hours and bled profusely - it was again the gentle surgical hands that saved my life and blessed my son as his little body met the room that night.

Again another daughter gone...

So, it became clear that I was high risk. Oh and I chose a woman obs - because she had opened her cervix for her own children. She had touched her own soft downy heads and she understood the fire in my belly. She also listened to my heart - and understood my tears. Together we journeyed through a pregnancy that ended with emergency c/section at 28 weeks. Amazing obs - an Englishman - with the kindest eyes. He came in the night just to check me - he knew that this baby was the most precious soul for her mother. He lifted her from my body on a sunny October afternoon and talked me through everything. He told me exactly what he was doing. How she looked. The noise she made. He had never been asked before for "background music" but he dignified my chanting music and respected my dimmed lights. He "allowed" my beautiful woman obs to be a second birth support. She held my right hand and my husband held my left as the room took a deep breath and prayed for a sound. I could hear his excitement that she was making sounds. She is alive.

So, I thank the Universe for obstetricians. They have played a huge role in my life. I thank the Universe for midwives - the stuff of legends I think.
They each play a role - should women have an obstetric birth for an "uncomplicated low risk birth". Well my opinion is that women should have what feels safest for them. However, in knowing what is safest all the information has to be presented. Unlike my colleague Schmickers (love your work my love!) I am too tired and spent after a weekend of sport and bbq's to access all my lovely facts.
So, you will just have to trust me on this! Low risk births are the job of midwives - that's their skill. Most of us are low risk. I was low risk and had 3 very uncomplicated births. My first birth was complicated because I wasn't on the same page as my midwife (long story ).

Our heads give birth before our hoo haas my loves. It's a fact and it's real. If we get our heads right our fanny's do their dance beautifully most of the time. Midwives want the best thing for the woman and her baby - if things don't look so great help is accessed. I was nearly (!) at a homebirth a couple of weeks ago - that midwife has had 1 transfer in awww I am guessing but I would say close to 20 years of birthing.

Obstetric birht is not necessarily the safest option for uncomplicated birth.

[richsaralex]

Can I add here that when I said doctors only scare-monger I was referring to many specialists and even GPS (not just Obs). This relates to the entire profession, and what has happened to midwives is one small picture in how the medical profession has slowly squeezed the life out of alternative options.

Doctors are trained in a certain way, and all are trained to 'think' a certain way - my best friend is a doctor training to be a GP and I noticed the difference in her thinking right after she started training in the hospitals!! They train them to beleive they can cure everything - and its up to the individual doctor to pull themselves out of it and become a better doctor. Its a hard & vicious cycle, and not necessarily the fault of the individual doctor but rather the whole system.

My friend has managed to pull herself out of this, and I beleive she'll be an amazing GP, but still I have seen some absolutely terrifying decisions made by GPs and specialists from sheer arrogance & ignorance!

My husband is a chiropractor (Ive seen him fix problems in people who have seen doctor after doctor after doctor and who have come to him as a last resort because they have been told by the medical profession that they will never get better!) and the number of doctors who actively try to avert his patients from his care simply because they dont understand it is staggering! They have no training or education in chiropractic, yet they feel free to make sweeping judgements about the care of a person who is obviously getting better, though they dont understand it.

Similarly, my father who is fighting cancer, has come up across some seriously strong egos in terms of him having to stand up to doctors (similar to a bullying situation, in a school for example) and say "No, I will not have chemotherapy" or whatever other drugs they wanted to pump into him. He has lived longer and is healthier than any of his doctors have expected. This is because he researched, made his own educated decisions and wasnt willing to take the first option offered to him by the medical profession! My father would leave consultation rooms shaking after meeting with specialists, because they have literally told him his decisions are stupid and that he will die - they were nasty and manipulative and he was given the worst scare-mongering that I have ever heard in my life! If it werent for a close knit and supportive family around him he probably would have bowed down to the many doctors' wishes.

I do beleive doctors they have their place, however it has been hugely overstated, so that many people no longer even think twice about the advice their doctor gives them. As far as many people are concerned, a doctors advice is 'god given' and couldnt possibly be wrong. I simply wish people would stand outside the square and look at the big picture of whats really happening.

[Smoke Jaguar]

For goodness sake, 'militant'? I don't think so. In my experience, this forum is moderate in comparison to some others I've participated in...where I was moderated, then banned from posting, within hours banned from reading...all because I chose to be moderate instead of foaming at the mouth in agreement with people holding more extreme views than my own!! I've been enjoying the diversity of responses here, even where I don't agree with a viewpoint. It all confirms my convictions about how childbirth ought to be.
The way I see it, the peddling of fear is what influences first-timers to believe that they need to be medically supervised so as not to risk their health and that of the baby. Ironically, women who trust the medical model of birth for the health and safety of mother and baby are the ones who will ask for/accept pain relief that overrides the health and safety of the baby and can interrupt the establishment of breastfeeding. The mother has foregone advocacy for herself (she's given all agency to the OB), most likely has no realistic birth plan (if one at all) and her partner is inculcated into this 'doctor knows best/has your best interests at heart' fantasy so has no concept of what kind of support the mother/baby dyad needs during labour (because it is criminal to let a mother believe she can make 'choices' during labour when she's in the most vulnerable state nature can render her). ETA: Here, I'm talking about the first-timers who have chosen medicalisation out of fear - I just read your post, Cassius, after I posted!
I don't know what it will take to get through to first-timers that they are not being negligent by foregoing medicalised care in normal pregnancy, and in fact enhance their bonding and establishment of breastfeeding (which leads to a happier, healthier human being, long-term, not just in the first couple of years when MCHN's obsess over charts and overlook the skill of simple observation - another story for another day!) .
The midwife-led model, from my experience, does not separate the mother/baby entity at any stage of the game. They treated us like a unit and even during some PPH, they made sure DS was on me while they treated me. They also trusted me - it was more than a matter of me trusting them. It was a mutual understanding and they could see that I was highly empowered. The attending midwife ended up thanking me for my birth because all she had to do was fill my tub and watch me birth my baby. They were not threatened by the knowledge that we had done a Hypnobirthing course, nor by the fact that I stated that I was going to labour, hopefully (and I did), entirely at home.
The referring OB for the birth centre that I had to see (for hospital policy) was great. When I presented to him and he asked me some questions about how I felt he said "well, you're fine, you're just pregnant". Duh!

[tuckers daughter]

I just remembered why I don't participate in these forums.

Call me naive but I think having dissenting opinions and voicing them actually adds to the discussion.

If I want to hang out in a militant forum where opposing viewpoints aren't welcome then I can go hang out at MDC.

I couldn't agree more with the opinions expressed by Sass and Kuraiza in this thread. The constant push that women who don't chose midwife only birthing options are uninformed and giving in to the evil, male dominated medical industry is offensive.

I can't help but notice that any time a poster pushes a view that is in opposition to the prevailing wisdom of this forum they are jumped on by the "moderators" and "creator". There seems little impartiality and a considerable conflict of interests as the forum is established by the Belly Belly birthing centre. At first I thought this site was driven by a political line but I now realise it is driven by a corporate line. A forum is supposed to be a place where posters can battle out conflicting opinions, not a place that is dominated by the opinions of moderators and the sites creator. The fact that this forum is linked to a business demonstrates that vested interests are at work here.

[Lulu]

Actually it was the forum that created the Pregnancy Centre.

ETA - the Mods are only 'moderating' if they are writing in purple, other than that its personal viewpoints with about 8 million facts thrown in.