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I think it is definitely something that is difficult to imagine until you are there and obviously, it is not for everyone. I only ever intended to feed for 6 months and even that was somehing that was difficult to get my head around. In the end though, it is no different to any other comforter though (blanket, soft toy, dummy) so if you are worried about developing a dependance than you would have to eliminate any form of comfort! I will tell you about my DD for example though. She is a few months from 3 and she woke during the night to be soothed by a breastfeed (right up till a few months back) but gradually, she transitioned to just needing to be near me, this then became less and less frequent. I believe the fact that she had grown up knowing, if she did need me I would be there as soon as possible helped her to be confident and independant, she was secure in doing so because she had the knowledge that if she couldn't quite manage it, I would be there and she soon realised, she could manage it because she had that safety net to try. It is hard to explain I guess but I feel children gain confidence and independance from realising the option is there, this isn't just breastfeeding but any comfort. I wouldn't want my daughter to gain forced confidence or independance out of neccessity personally.
My daughter is still breastfeeding and I am due with my second any day now, so not sure about the cut-off thing as my DD won't be cut off. They will be sharing! I don't know when DD will wean but I will happily feed her as long as she has the ability and desire, I imagine there is a strong possibility that they will wean at a similar time.
As for my partner, we both still enjoy stimulation in that area frequently. I'm not sure why breastfeeding would hinder that? The first few weeks there might be some difficulty while your supply settles down but past that point, there is no reason to not enjoy everything you once did. Not wanting to be too crude but a vagina or penis has two purposes, one of which is sexual whilst the other is not yet we still manage to have sex and reconcile this fact
ETA: It is a very different technique between a baby/toddler drinking and a partner partaking in adult activities, humans lose their suck reflex for breastfeeding as their mouth grows and changes so it is actually really hard for an adult to get milk even if they were trying.
I also think all of these things are concerns many people have when they are about to become a parent and the OP doesn't seem confrontational but curious. I think it is a good idea to explore these things and seek the knowledge/opinions from those who have been there whilst also being brave to put your thoughts out there.
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I don't think she seems *that* opinionated, Babyluv! She's just asked questions.
This has been a very interesting thread to read.
CT, on the relationship question s- my DH and I are almost into our fourth year of breastfeeding - my DD is turning three soon and I have basically breastfed her then her brother with no break and am still going.
DH gets a bit antsy sometimes - he's a boob man! - but he understand this is how it is. He's fine with it!
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i agree - on the relationship thing, it's made zip difference to us. yeah, for the first several weeks, boobs were a no go zone - but then i was pretty much a no go zone anyway! adjusting to having a new born, and all the body/hormonal changes that go with it, means that sex isn't really a high priority. i'd be worried if my partner didn't get that. nowadays, we enjoy breast play as much as before. yup, DH might get a bit of milk - but it's not going to hurt him - and he knows that they are primarily for DD - so he either "sucks it up" (lol, pun intended) and accepts that there is milk there, or he stays away from them. our sex life hasn't been hindered by BF this long at all.
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i think it's a good thing to question & research something you don't understand or feel you have enough information on. i also think BG was right when she said you should let go of expecations regarding how long you should/will BF for. while i was PG with my son, i thought i'd just give it the best shot i could. i wasn't prepared for feeling absolutely devastated when we had problems in the early days & i thought i might have to FF. it took me by surprise that i felt so strongly about it. i let go of my expecations & just took it as it came. in the end i fed my son till he was 20 months.
i chose to wean because i felt it was a good time for both of us - he was emotionally doing well & i wanted a break before we TTC #2. possibly selfish of me, but it felt right & he adjusted with a minimum of fuss - as an example of the many different reasons children continue to feed - my DS was all about a BF when it was sleep time. some kids have a dummy or a blanket, my DS wanted a BF.
if we hadn't been about to TTC then i would have felt comfortable continuing to feed him. i was lucky enough to have an MCHN who is a LC & very pro-BFing. she talked about the continued immunity benefits from feeding & how the body is so clever that it ramps up some things when you are weaning to ensure the child gets that last dose of the good stuff!
now i'm PG again, i have absolutely no idea how long i will feed for this time. i expect to have a child with a different personality & that will have an impact on why/when they feed etc beyond the nutritional aspect.
i don't think you have to BF for your child to know they are loved & to feel secure. for me, it was part of offering my DS comfort & security along with many other things such as gentle parenting. i never really enjoyed BFing as such but it was something i really wanted to do & felt it was important for my DS. so i did it. that's not going to be the same for everyone, you just have to be true to yourself, research & follow the path you think is the right one.
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Hi Babyluv
I may come across as opinionated and I am sorry it seemed that way to you, but as I said straight up earlier, it was something I didnt understand and was asking those who have chosen that path to enlighten me. I also said I had thought about it for a long time so I did give myself some time to look at it and re-look at it and asking other people seems like a good way of gathering more information. I am struggling with it, thats why I was asking for more views. I cant know everything, so I was looking for outside experiences and views. I thought it would be better to ask, than to go on just what I knew, or didnt know as the case may be.
I think as mothers or mothers-to-be, we are always worried that we will be viewed as bad mothers for doing something or NOT doing something. There is alot of pressure to be 'the Best Mother' we can be, and figuring out what I am capable of as a parent is my aim.
If I dont put my thoughts, views or fears out there, how will I learn or answer any of the questions I have, or feel confident in the choices I do make?
I have appreciated everyones input and the information they have given me, whether it works for me or not is irrelevent. I was able to ask these nagging questions 'out loud' and have people share their experiences and lives with me, which is priceless.
Again, sorry if I came off sounding opinionated. I am a fairly direct person and tend to just get to the point and I guess that doesnt always come off sounding right.
CT
I hope you better understand where I am coming from.
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Hi CT. Congratulations on your pg!
Miss P is my third child. I have had breast reduction surgery and I was unable to BF my first two babies due to insufficient supply - and a lack of education and support!
Miss P has been comp fed with formula since she was a few weeks old. The amount of formula she has required has decreased since she has been consuming more solids but she still BF's on demand, usually six or so feeds during the day. We co-sleep and have an 'open bar' policy overnight so I leave my pj top open and she helps herself.
I will be honest and say that when I had my first baby I thought extended BF was... well a bit gross really! Who would BF a kid who can walk, talk, eat solids and undo buttons and bras on their own?! I should point out that I don't come from a family with a history of BF so I hadn't had much exposure to it. I had a good friend whose baby was born a few days before DD1. She BF her DS for 2.5 years. Honestly, I found it challenged my beliefs to see her BF her 2.5 year old. But she educated me in the physical and emotional benefits of extended BF that PP's have explained here and slowly my opinion changed. I saw the comfort BF could give her son and understood the immunological benefits. Since joining BB my education has become even broader as I have been lucky enough to read of other women's experience with extended BF and benefit from their advice and support.
When Miss P was born, I was determined to BF her regardless of whether I also needed to comp feed or not. It was bloody hard work! Establishing a supply and finding the balance between BF and comp feeding was difficult and took months before I felt confident. But I have thoroughly enjoyed our BF relationship, there is something very special about nurturing your child from your own body - for me, it just feels natural. My goal was to feed to 12 months. I didn't think I would achieve my goal after my past experiences, but here I am. Miss P is now 13 months old and I have no intention of stopping soon. At this point, I am happy for Miss P to self wean. I figure she'll know when it's time.
I think it's great that you are interested and trying to gain information and education regarding extended BF. I would suggest that instead of setting yourself a 'finish date', just go with the flow and see how you feel. You might find that extended BF feels right for you, too!
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Hi CT
Firstly, you are certainly opening a can of worms on this topic but hey, thats what BBs forBefore I had DD I was going to feed for 3 months, then 6 then just 12 and well, here we are over 2 years later. Its a long hard road but one that whilst we were travelling I was learning all about the pro's of BFing. Like others have said Breastmilk is a 'live' substance, it cant be duplicated and provides so many nutrients. Actually there is a chart around here on how many nutrients can be jam packed into just 1 single breastfeed for the child over the age of 1. Basically, if a bub/ toddler is teething and not eating than BM will almost ensure that they are getting enough to get by (dont get me wrong they do need to eat eventually)!
Its a comfort thing, sure but it is SOOOO much more. I remember reading through out my exploring of why is BM that good some of the following facts:
Our closest animal relative are the apes, they breastfeed their yound generally until they develop their first permanant set of molars, in humans this is the equivalant of a 5- 6 year old child.
They also feed for 6 x the length of their gestation, in humans that is around 4- 5 years.
The immune system isnt fully develop until a child reaches 6 so the benefits of obtaining antibodies through mum has to be a good thing
I know that I am comparing us to an animal, but really at the end of the day thats what we are, however as humans we have managed to turn our brain into listening to what society has decided is 'best'. BFing a toddler has a certain stigma attached to it and I am one of those who can vouch for that! But if you can not replicate a live, substance with antibodies, proteins, vitamins, carbs etc etc all specifically designed for that little human than why not make use of the free 'on tap' supply thats there.
But definatly Mayaness will put this much more eloquently than I can manage to bumble out
Hope that helps
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Hi CT, I was wondering the same thing as Babyluv. It does read like you have strong opinions already and you do seem to have looked over posts from the likes of Meow who clearly spell out the benefits of breastfeeding beyond a physical connection with the mother which you seem to be focusing on. I think the facts of breast milk speak for themselves but like anything in life some things are more important to others, which is fine but I don't see how you can question why people still breastfeed when there are plenty of facts to explain this to you.
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I will reply soon - gotta do a creek walk with a visiting MiL and kids who really want to show her their favourite spot on the planet!
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Hi Cherished1
I guess I do focus more on the emotional side of things as that is where I see the world from. All the stuff I hear/read about scientific research about anything to do with concieving, eating, drinking, breathing all seems so conflicting. We are always being told that 'this is bad for you, dont drink it' 'this will cause asthma, dont use it' 'this will eliviate menopause' 'this will help you lose weight' blah blah the list is endless of what scientists tell us is good, bad or whatever. One day eggs are good for you, then next day they are not! Seriously, was it this hard for our parents just getting through a normal day in life ??!?!?
Basically, what I am saying is i dont trust scientific reports just because some one told me to. I tend to go by feel. I like to know 'why' someone does something and someone else does something else. Therefore I ask questions but in that I also like to debate the answers. I wasnt asking 'why WOULD you' I was asking more 'why DO you'. I dont know if that came across the way I mean it, but it wasnt an attack it was me wanting to understand.
After all the replies and experiences I have read here, I have to say that it is sounding alot better to me and far less scary. Before getting pregnant I was adimant that there was no way I was going to breastfeed for longer than 6 weeks. The thought actually repulsed me. But, as soon as I found out I was pregnant all I could think about was breastfeeding my baby.
I guess we only know what we know until we learn something new.
This thread certainly is a can of worms but I am glad I asked. I have learnt so much and ther is no way I could have learnt so much form sitting on the sidelines and biting my tongue. Thanks everyone, you are all extraordinary women (and I mean that in a good way ;-) )
CT
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
It's important to be aware of our cultural filters - which downgrade the importance and value of breastmilk and normalise very early weaning - and biological norms - natural weaning ages of 3-7, for eg. This is how we are designed. It is what is optimal for human development.
There is no benefit to breastfeeding for children - only risks to them if they are not. That is the truth of it as we should, from the perspective of biological norms, compare outcomes using breastfed babies as our basis for comparison.
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Here is an article from the main site on the benefits of breastfeeding a toddler.
Benefits of Breastfeeding Your Toddler
BellyBelly Member
He enjoyed it, I enjoyed it - it didn't have any disadvantages. And he's a cheery, friendly, not-overly-Mummy's-boy nowadays.
The one huge advantage is when they are sick you have access to something that is healthy and will be drunk.
Just take it as it comes and see how you feel at the time - but remember that there are really only two people who have to be happy with the arrangement!
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You're a brave woman CT!! I wondered these things before my DS came along, and could have done with asking the question. Fortunately, I had a social circle of women who BF'd until their kids were 2, so I was exposed to it and it was normalised. BFing a toddler older than that wasn't so normal and I pushed the boundaries, there
Anyway, my DS is now 5.5yo and has a nightly feed, though I've been skimping on the 'every night' bit
What has been found is that in every culture there is a word that refers to the baby teeth in kids being 'milk' teeth. This ties in with the age range of self-weaning (across cultures) being between 3 and 8. By age 8 most kids have lost all their milk teeth. Also by about this age kids' own immune system kicks in. Another thing that happens by about this age is that kids lose their suck reflex and seem to 'forget' how to suckle at the breast (so if they haven't weaned themselves by then, I'm tipping the mothers are kicking them off, and that will happen here if we get to that point!!).
Weaning a child before this development stage means there is an immunity gap and a non-BF child is at risk of contracting illnesses more easily, and not being able to fight off illness as efficiently as a BF child.
Apart from the immunity side of things, there are nerve ending in the lips that connect to centres in the brain responsible for pleasurable feelings - feelings of 'wellbeing'- that release oxytocin. We know that if the brain is producing oxytocin it cannot produce adrenalin, which is a stress-hormone. Which means that cortisol levels remain low - cortisol is another stress-hormone that can change neural connections if at sufficient levels for long enough (and 'long enough' is not really defined because it's unethical to test when enough cortisol is sufficient to cause harm in a human brain, let alone a child's one!), and impacts on emotional development. So, when babies suck on a breast they feel good. That's useful, because they're likely to keep wanting that life-preserving liquid if they feel good when they're getting it.
Later on, if kids are not weaned, they learn to seek comfort from suckling at a breast, and associate the milk that comes out with feeling better (because it happens to come out at the same time as their nerve endings in the lips are being stimulated). I find it a great distraction tactic when my kids are melting down, overwhelmed, overstimulated etc - it's like a reset button and it's incredibly effective. For that reason alone I would have kept BFing in my tool box! Everyone who knows our kids marvels at how they don't really have tantrums...it's not rocket science, it's just a boobMy eldest doesn't need it as an emotional reset anymore, he just feels nice when he's 'on', and it gives us time to reconnect now that he's at an age where his explorations take him further and further from me during the day. He knows I'm his safe place to land and if he feels anxious about anything, even resting his head on my boobs will soothe him (seems to be universal, whether they feed from them or not!).
Tandem feeding meant that I didn't have the horrendous oversupply issues with DD that I had with DS. It also meant that I didn't have 'saggy' boobs when pregnant second time around, because they were gradually drained and gave my skin time to respond to the reduction in mass. They always hung a bit low because they were always a bit bigger than average. I'm hoping DD's slow self-weans so that my massive boobs reduce to a manageable size without 'deflating'!
My kids have recently contracted an eye-lurgy and the breastmilk directly into the eye is so soothing for them - better than a saline solution because it's a live antibody. If I weren't still BFing a toddler (and the almost-school child!) I wouldn't have any milk there to squirt for their injuries
Anyway, it's all 'benefit' and no harm at all.
See? Most of the 'benefit' isn't even for me, the mother, as we so often hear and believe until we ask someone who's doing it!
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Well said Maya, you cerainly know how to put things into words when people like me are fumbling and stuttering! Well done
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Hi CT. You said in a post the thought of breast feeding beyond 6 weeks repulsed you. Do you now why you felt this way? Is it because you feel that breasts are sexual things? Breasts are actually designed to feed our babies. I would think that a 6 week old baby is not seen as sexual being in any way, the same goes for a 1 year old, 2 year old even a 6 year old. Society has over sexualised breasts to such a point where now breast feeding in our culture is seen as revolting and something that needs to be hidden. Anyone that sees a baby breast feeding and feels uncomfortable or even jealous is probably a victim of how society has twisted a natural function and made it tabu favouring sexualisation. I don't get how a grown adult man could be jealous of a breast feeding baby??? I really don't and personally I could not be in a relationship with a man who though/felt that way I would see it as selfish and ignorant.
When it comes to science, I'm with you about not blindly believing it just because. It is always good to question and challenge. So scientific reasons aside, what about nature? I don't think that nature ever gets things too wrong. Ok so sometimes it drops the ball a bit, but really it's pretty good and sometimes it's so simple we overlook it in search of some scientific man made wonder that must be better because it's made by us. Honestly a bit of reflection and common sense says that if we stick closer to nature we'd probably be a lot better off. Why do we feel the need to encourage our children away from things that naturally comfort them, make them happy and healthy? Then try to replace them with rubber things to suck on, what's wrong with a boob and a cuddle? Or supplements (toddler formulas) to add extra nutrition to toddler's diets? Wouldn't the fact you may need to supplement their diet suggest that maybe they would still benefit from breast milk and it's nutrients?
Someone said to me a while back that if I didn't stop breast feeding my son and sleeping with him that he would never stop. Pffft I have never seen a teenager that still sleeps with their mum and breast feeds lol or a groom on the alter who needed a BF firstnow they are much more disturbing thoughts to me than a 2 year old breast feeding
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Naww, thanks LD, I've had 5.5 years to think about it
I forgot to touch on the nutrition. Care givers were initially concerned with iron intake etc when DS was a bit older (post-6 months) because they thought meat and other things would give him what he needed. I countered that with what I knew about 'available' iron and 'digestible' iron. Whilst BM has less measurable iron than a steak, the babies digestive system will metabolise ALL of that iron in the milk and absorb next to no iron from the meat. Same with milk - worse with milk re: calcium, actually.
My DS didn't eat much in the way of solids till he was easily 10 mo before he started eating solids in any notable quantities, and I used to get 'helpful' advice about how to get solid foods into him. Most notably, the advice to give him the broccoli, meat or potato first, then offer a breastfeed. I flouted that advice and gave him a breastfeed first and he could have a go at the other things after. My reasoning being that a breastfeed would give him a broad-spectrum hit of minerals and vitamins, where one serve of food that fills his belly would have a very limited range of nutritional input.
My dietician cousin was adamant that eating meat would help DS's speech development because of the jaw workout that eating couldn't give. What she didn't realise was that the action of the jaw while BFing is even better for exactly the same purpose. There is absolutely no problem with either of my children's speech development, despite one of the MCHN's badly undertaken developmental screening, where she couldn't tick certain boxes to her satisfaction because DS was saying the words for the pictures she was showing him in Spanish...he just outsmarted her
Some days I'd be too disorganised to bring food on outings with us and I was so glad I was still breastfeeding an older baby!
Really, one of the motivators for pushing through the later challenges to breastfeeding (the occasional accidental use of teeth) had to do with our rocky start to breastfeeding. DS had Tongue Tie and it was undiagnosed for 3.5 weeks, despite the checks at birth. We had it snipped at 4 weeks and from there things got better. Lacerated nipples healed up and by 12 weeks there was no more nipple vasospasm (look that up when you've had a stiff drink, or your nipples will go cold just reading about it!) and DS's attachment had also normalised by about then, too. It took far too much effort to establish breastfeeding with my first child to ever consider weaning him if I didn't have to.
The loveliest thing about breastfeeding a child till they're older is that they can tell you exactly why they love breastfeeding. At one stage, DS told me that it tasted like fruit. Nowadays he tells me he loves it's taste, how it's nice and warm and how it fills his belly. He also says it makes him feel really, really nice. Who can argue with that?
Anyone who didn't know he was still having a breastfeed whenever he could get it would not believe me if I told them and if they believed that kids BFing at an older age were emotionally stunted and socially compromised. This is because my DS is the antithesis of the apparent stereotype that exists about children who continue to breastfeed beyond the socially accepted age. He is adventurous as all get out, confidence oozes from him and infects those who come into contact with him and he gets up to some strange hijinx. What he also does is come back to me as if he's coming back to base. That's hardly the stereotype of a child who is wrapped up in my apron.
I don't suppose I present as a stereotypical full-term breastfeeder, either...dunno, other BB'ers will have to back me up on that wild assertion!
I will often come across people who make assumptions about me, though, when they do realise I am a full-term breastfeeder, especially when they also learn that I had a homebirth with my DD and used HypnoBirthing (in a birth centre) for my DS. I'm not a homeschooler (my reserves only stretch so far since I've been doing some post-grad study while DS was growing up!) and I'm not anti-immunisations. I'm not vegetarian, I don't live in a commune, just to bust those myths, while we're at busting myths. I DO practice Elimination Communication since my DD was born (well, 'did', because she's been continent and self-toileting for well over a year now), I used cloth nappies predominantly and I wore my babies in a sling (which enhanced the breastfeeding and the EC, as well as my resistance training and core muscles), DS will go to a regular school, we watch DVD's, and I've used childcare. I fit into a very crumply and misshapen box
ETA:
I'm going to say one more thing, actually, after re-reading your last post, CT. When I wasn't pregnant I just had no idea how I'd actually feel when my baby was out. All I knew was that the thought of breastfeeding filled me with complex feelings I wasn't sure I would be able to reconcile. Once I was pregnant I was still unsure of how I'd feel about it, all I knew was that I had to do it, whether I liked it or not. Duration I didn't think about, and I most certainly wasn't think in terms of years! My DP's aunt subscribed us to ABA in our last trimester and I started reading Essence magazine. It still didn't really change my feelings, it did educate me more, though. When DS came along, even with the excruciating pain, all I knew was that I loved it - I loved it for all it was doing for DS and because that meant more to me than any personal benefit ever could. That is still true. So, I actually know how you feel
Last edited by Smoke Jaguar; January 6th, 2012 at 06:22 PM.
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I do think it is a little odd that we have no problem reconciling a sexual aspect and a practical aspect to a vagina or penis (or any other part of the body; hands, mouth) yet when it comes to being able to see breasts in both realms, society seems to be stumped. I think if people thought about it a little more they would realise the human body is capable of being many things in different circumstances and breasts are just another extension of that, no real difference to other parts they already accept as normal to fulfil multiple functions.
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