Hmmm what do you think? Rabbi Shmuley and bfing

[ezymay]

Firstly I wasn't really sure where to put this!? It could go in relationships or breastfeeding!

I just saw this on Elizabeth Pantley's face book page. She was up in arms about
it.
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Can Breast-Feeding Hurt Your Marriage? Rabbi Shmuley Boteach Thinks So in His New Book, 'Kosher Adultery'- Beliefnet.com
(Mods I hope the links are ok)

So I don't know a lot about Rabbi Shmuley except he has a show on foxtel that I've only ever seen ads for and this really dissapoints me. Having a child can effect your marriage period! It doesn't have to be breast feeding that effects intamicy in a marriage. I don't feel feeding (or Expressing in my case) meant I put my husband second. Yes my DD was my first priority but I think, especially in the first year that's how it should be but that didn't mean my DH was not really really important also.

It saddens me this sentiment is still out there.

ETA this article is from 2006 so not new. Just thought Id add that and apparently after a huge amount of backlash he wrote another reponse. Will try and find that.

[willow5]

I personally think that if breast feeding is hurting your marriage, you're probably in the wrong relationship! ...I haven't read the article you're referring to though, I will have a read, but that is my first thought!

[HotI]

I am surprised that when scientists discuss all the benefits of breast-feeding, they neglect its most negative consequence. If breast-feeding gets in the way of the marriage—if it means that a husband and wife never go out on dates, or that the mother is so tired from always waking up with the baby that she has no energy to ever be intimate with her husband—the child will probably end up worse off, however many colds or bouts with diarrhea he now avoids.

This would happen whether you breastfeed or bottlefeed, you would be up for longer if you also had to prepare a bottle.

In the end, there are two effects of breast-feeding that we often refuse to acknowledge. One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose. This is not to say that breast-feeding isn't sexy. Indeed, the maternal dimension is a central part of womanliness. But public breast-feeding is profoundly de-eroticizing, and I believe that wives should cover up, even when they nurse their babies in their husband's presence.

Is he serious? A number of my friends have talked about their partners helping them in the early days to get the right attachment, and how couples can be brought together thinking how cool it is that a woman can make stuff to feed their baby, and how proud they both can be.

[willow5]

OM*G ok I just read the article and I'm sorry but Rabbi Shmuley IMHO is a TOOL!

With comments like "In the end, there are two effects of breast-feeding that we often refuse to acknowledge. One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose."

And

"This is not to say that breast-feeding should not be practiced. It is instead to say that it should always remain subordinate to the romantic and passionate needs of a marriage."

Ah..NO, I'm sorry but my baby's nutritional needs are definitely first.

And another of many

"Let me be clear. I agree that breast-feeding is usually the best thing for a baby. But the principal form of marital breakdown in our time is a loss of erotic desire between husband and wife, and if couples find that breast-feeding is adding to a sense of alienation, there is always the bottle."

If a man has issue and feels alienated by his wife using her breasts to feed their baby, which I'm pretty sure is what they are there for, then I think he probably needs to seek help for his insecurities, which are actually the problem in a relationship like this, not breast feeding.

Grrr! Sadly people probably listen to this man and take his advice. I think he has some "issues" of his own that need some attention.

[ezymay]

I wonder if his wife breastfed? (I think he has a wife and kids?) There was a great reply on Elizabeth's page quoting all sorts of Jewish documentation where breastfeeding is mentioned and encouraged. I still haven't found his second artcile but really how much back pedalling can he do after that?!

[Kazmar]

rofl! Why is dumb s*** like this even published! If your marriage is failing.....its NOT bf! And if your DH blames the bf, leave the fool!

[Jennifer13]

One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose.

Ummmm... does this mean a wife and husband should never go to the toilet in front of each other either? Or should her husband not be at the birth, since I'm guessing vaginal birth is somewhat less than romantic to watch. *GASP* How will he ever want to have sex with her again???!

[willow5]

Ummmm... does this mean a wife and husband should never go to the toilet in front of each other either? Or should her husband not be at the birth, since I'm guessing vaginal birth is somewhat less than romantic to watch. *GASP* How will he ever want to have sex with her again???!

Yes Jennifer13, he recommended that husbands not see the birth, well not the vagina at least, same thing, not erotic

[Kazmar]

Aw so our bodies are just here to please a man, sexually! What a freak!

What about those men, dare I say it, who like anal???? bahahahaha Clearly most men dont think to much about it lol

[Jennifer13]

I had no idea men were such fragile creatures that the mere sight of a body part performing its intended function would be enough to put them off for life.

If love and desire are so affected by our brain and psychology you would think the true deep and lasting love would overcome the relatively small 'obstacle' of viewing bfing and birth. What happens when the couple are older and no longer as physically attractive? Or if one partner has to undergo physically altering surgery or health challenges? To me it flies in the face of the kind of love we are trying to create to suggest that your partner is so superficial!

[Lenny]

I'd be interested to get a few dads in here to hear what they have to say. I know that my DH is proud of my ability to feed our boys and is emotionally intelligent enough to separate breasfeeding and the breasts role in intimacy. Sheesh, I would like to think most men can.
I think that the early stages of feeding a baby (bf and/or bottle) can be a bit of a drain (mostly on the mother) but i have to agree with you willow - if breastfeeding is hurting your marriage, then I think you're in the wrong relationship.

[Peg]

So I don't know a lot about Rabbi Shmuley except he has a show on foxtel that I've only ever seen ads for and this really dissapoints me. Having a child can effect your marriage period! It doesn't have to be breast feeding that effects intamicy in a marriage. I don't feel feeding (or Expressing in my case) meant I put my husband second. Yes my DD was my first priority but I think, especially in the first year that's how it should be but that didn't mean my DH was not really really important also.

It saddens me this sentiment is still out there.

ETA this article is from 2006 so not new. Just thought Id add that and apparently after a huge amount of backlash he wrote another reponse. Will try and find that.

this is just typical of the male chauvanists idea that women were put on this earth to please men. Its especially dissapointing coming from a man who proports to teach people about God...that is what i find hard to concieve.


And if there are men out there who become jealous of seeing their own babies feeding from the breast, they need to go see a psychologist. I think the rabbis words are very destructive...have a read of this snipet

"I told the mother that in being so devoted to her son, she had committed the cardinal sin of marriage, which is to put someone else before her spouse, even if that someone is your child. Furthermore, I said, her obsession had turned one of her most attractive body parts into a feeding station, an attractive cafeteria rather than a scintillating piece of flesh.
In my book "Kosher Adultery," I make the point that infidelity is primarily a sin of omission rather than commission. It is not the bad thing you do that destroys a marriage, but all the good that you fail to do, preoccupied as you are with a sinful relationship that diverts your attention away from your spouse."

That is the most backward piece of thinking i've heard in a long while. To equate the caring of your child with a 'sinful relationship diverting your attention away from your spouse' is the most destructive notion i've ever heard.

[HotI]

I found this thread

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...stfeeding.html

when looking for something else.

discusses a different angle on the jewish view on breastfeeding.

[Jennifer13]

Thanks Kate!

From that thread:

• The Mishna (Ketubot 59b) instructs us that breastfeeding her baby is a woman’s obligation toward her husband, *so much so that other household functions take lower priority during this time.

So perhaps Rabbi Shmuley should be instructing husbands to support their wives and make sure that husbands pick up 'other household functions', or at least accept their 'needs' come second for a little while! Seriously, though, since when did a mature adult father and husband not understand that his role has now changed with a new baby? Rabbi Shmuley really underestimates the abilities and maturity of men.

[~clover~]

Well... My DH has witnessed 3 vaginal births, cracked bleeding nipples, over 2 years altogether so far of BFing, hemeroids (sp?), stretch marks, CM, vaginal bleeding & a million other unnattractive things about my body! & the poor bugger still wants it! Lol, I feel for this Rabbi & especially for his wife, since he is very obviously so vein!!
I'm assuming he is absolutely perfect!?

[willow5]

Rabbi Shmuley really underestimates the abilities and maturity of men.

A reflection of himself really, not all men.

[Yael]

As much as he is a Rabbi, he is not considered mainstream at all in orthodox Judaism, and pretty much all of us ignore what he has to say.

In regards to men being at birth, under Jewish law a man is forbidden to look there, so although my DH was in the room (some women chose not to have their husbands there at all), he stood by my head and faced the wall, so he could see me and my face and give me encouragement, as that is the only dispensation for a man being there under Jewish law - if the woman wants it/needs it, he must be there, but not if it just for him.

If you want any clarity about how it is different when an orthodox Jewess gives birth, you can ask Kelly as she as an 'outsider' has been at 2 of mine... i don't know, they seem normal to me, so I don't know how other people do it that differently (I mean, they come out the same way whether you are Jewish or not haha!)

But that is why in our culture almost all women have a doula, private midwife or their mothers/sisters there, as it is a time for a woman and what she wants, not at all about the husband (which is good, because if DH told me that day was anything about him (other than emotionally obviously, because he became a parent and his life changed also), but physical needs etc, I might have had to kill him...)

Interestingly enough, when we had our temple 2000 years ago and animal sacrifices were bought, women post childbirth bought 2 birds, which represent chatter (as birds chatter), which was the sin offering bought when you sinned through your mouth, because women say things in childbirth they don't truly mean "i hate you, we are never having children again, i don't want this baby etc etc", things you don't mean

I wrote that article about the true Jewish perspective on b/feeding as I had seen his article on a Jewish forum about parenting/childbirth (it didn't go down well), so don't think he speaks for us all.

But in his defense, and i'm not saying don't b/f, be it about everything in your marriage, there is some truth in what he was trying to allude to - there is something about putting ourselves out there and working on giving to the other (and they should give to you and not think about themselves in return, nothing about only females), and that keeping your marriage/partnership strong during those difficult first years of a babies life when you are just oh so tired constantly is important. If you focus solely on your baby, or use looking after your baby (or your job) as an excuse to neglect working on your marriage, in the end it won't be great for everyone.

Marriage isn't easy and it takes constant work (as i continually find out!)

[Phteven]

Ummmm... does this mean a wife and husband should never go to the toilet in front of each other either?

Breastfeeding and the Rabbi aside I prefer a closed door. That's just me