So we're on the boob but...

[Arimeh]

... of course there are issues!!!
So yes, been just on boob feeds since 7pm last night (I know there are some people who will fall off their chair, or spit out their coffee at reading that!) and I know our attachment is still a bit iffy cos it still hurts (even though its not toe curling or anything, but it is painful) and the left is FAR worse than the right, but the football hold seems to be working well for us.

So her issues (our issues?) are that particularly on the left side, she will do some fast sucks, and then not suck for a few seconds (maybe 20?) and then will suck really really hard. Problem is, because she has totally relaxed and released her grip, my nipple has gone a bit out of position, so then it kills and I have to reattach her. So every 30 seconds of the feed I'm basically reattaching her. Is there a secret I'm missing out on on the left side? Cos she has a longer suck when she is on the right.

Another issue - she won't stop bringing her bottom lip up around the nipple. Its not too bad on the right side, must have a tougher nipple or whatever, and I don't end up with the lipstick shape, even though she's basically sucking just my nipple - she has a light suck when she's on that side, so I must have a good flow or whatever cos she barely needs to suck and it appears that she is swallowing (and still chucking - I nearly cry when she chucks cos its my milk not formula!!!)

Another problem - she doesn't stay on for too long before she will sorta fall asleep and let go - last night from 7pm to 10.30 I was basically feeding her every 20 minutes, so I don't know if I'm supposed to be switching sides when she lets go and has a small nap, or vomit, or burp or whatever, or if I'm supposed to be going back to that side? She doesn't feed for very long - maybe 7 - 15 minutes on one side (15 minutes at the max).

We had an alright night I think considering that she had been on the bottle mostly since birth (EBM and top ups) she fed at midnight and 5am, and then woke up again at 7.30. So since 7.30 she has fed on the left side twice and right side once. Should I just be continuing to go back to the one side? This is my first real bfing experience so of course I'm friggin clueless.

Any help would be fantastic

[Willow]

Mel I have to say all of those sound like pretty normal newbie issues.

I've breastfed 3 babies and still feeding two of them but I still had a stack of issues feeding DS2! It REALLY does take time, trial and error before you are on track.

One thing I will say is keep reattaching her if you need to. It's better to reattach her 100 times a feed until it is right. Otherwise you will end up with nipple damage and that's a whole new kettle of fish.

With the left side - nearly all babies have a side they prefer to feed from and feed better from. Most of the time this is the right side. So this is very normal!! None of my kids have ever fed as well from the left as they do from the right. The nipple on that side is a bit flatter and the flow isn't as good. Just one of those things and shouldn't cause any issues long term.

Also, don't get too hung up on the timing of her feeds - all three of mine have fed for less than 15 mins per side since birth. Never caused any problems (hello, my boy is 4 months old and weighs 8kg - he's getting plenty! LOL)

I gotta run so I'll leave it up to the experts like MantaRay and Janie to go more in depth but just really wanted to offer you my support - can you imagine how awesome it will be if you can keep this going??!!

BBL...

[Indadhanu]

Hi darl,

First of all - YOU ARE AMAZING!

Ok, so, Jazz has never had two sides during a feed. Ok, maybe a few times but as a newborn she'd take one side and then drift off into dream land. Because she was feeding for about 15-20 minutes, like your DD, and she was gaining weight, lots of wet and poopy nappies, i never really pushed two sides, and just let her lead.

I know they say burp, change, and offer the other side but I usually just sat her upright a bit against my chest, quick pat to see if she'd do a little burp in her sleep, then put her down until she woke again. As I said, her gains were good so I figured she'd wake when she was hungry, some days she wanted to feed every 2-3 hours, sometimes every half hour, it's all good babe

Basically, my mantra was, she's gaining so it's all good. Obviously if she wasn't gaining weight, I would have been more vigilent, probably offered both sides, woken her regularly. But yeah, don't worry about it, if she falls asleep, I'd be inclined to let her sleep if she's had at least 15 minutes.

She was also a great chucker, she did one once that went in this amazing arc, she completely missed herself, the rocker she was sitting in, and got about 30cm away from where she was. My goodness that was amazing and hysterical. I know how you feel, I always thought "oh no, is my milk making her sick?". Nah its just a baby thing

It sounds like you know what good attachment is, but little E is still getting the hang of it. Yeah, its so tough hey, having to re-adjust. ARGH, so frustrating! I do remember it all too well, and yeah we had 'issues' with the left side, Jazz favoured the right over the left, I think its normal for babies to do that? Doesn't make it easier, but might be handy to know anyway.
I do think it has a little bit to do with holding them too... my right arm is stronger, and my left had the IV line in it, so I held her closer and stronger on the right so she was able to stay attached for longer, on the left I unconsciosly let my arm drop a bit, and because they're so tiny and new they don't have any muscles so even the tinest tinest drop will cause them to lose their attachment altogether. Sounds like the football hold is working, maybe because you can hold her closer for longer? Do you use pillows and supports to help you hold your arm up? Maybe it would be worth a try to see if it helps?

With the bottom lip, do you think DH would be able to help this weekend with attachment. Get him to hold DD in the position, while you use one hand to position your booby and the other to hold DDs jaw open really wide, and get him to bring DD to your breast. That's something that worked for us until I could coordinate holding Jazz, positioning the boob, and holding her jaw open.

Hope this helps darl Again, YOU ARE AMAZING!!!!!

[Miss E]

Your doing a fabulous job honey! That first week or so of breastfeeding can by really trying, but by the sounds of things you've done really, really well overnight. I'm definately not an expert, but I'll share my experience with you in the hope that some of the things I found out might help.

The first thing I would say is don't be scared to try a nipple shield, even if it is only for the left side. I had a lot of problems with my left side too, including an inverted nipple, but found that if I used the shield it would stop it hurting and make it easier for bubs to attach. It also meant that if he did loose his attachment he could easily regain it (which was great for us cos we really struggled with attachment). I know some people do say that they will affect your supply etc, but in my case if I didn't use it I wouldn't have continued b'feeding because my nipples ended up in such bad shape. We used it up until 8 weeks when I gradually stopped using it. By that time DS was much bigger and was soon able to attach himself. And FWIW I have absolutely no supply issues.

My DS was a really sleepy baby after being jaundiced, so we also had the problem of him falling asleep while on the boob. The tricks I was taught by the midwives were:
- undress bubs before the feed so they are in just a nappy and singlet (less likely to fall asleep if they're not so snug and apparently your body heat is enough)
- tickle their feet
- mess up their hair
- basically anything that is annoying and stops them falling into the land of nod
- apply a cold facewasher to forehead, legs or wherever to wake them up (my LC was really against this one so I only did it a couple of times before she suggested it wasn't very nice, but it did work).

With the sides try to make sure each one gets the same amount of use so that you get an even supply. My LC told me that you should always offer both sides. So if bubs has finished with one side, maybe change their nappy etc and then offer the other side. If they don't take it it is no big deal, but it helps encourage them to have proper feeds rather than snacking, which pays off in the long run.

Anyway I hope this helps, like I said I am definatley no expert, but these things helped me when I thought that there was no way I would be able to breastfeed long-term. It is really hard in the early days, but you are doing a fabulous job! GL

[Epacris]

Aww Mel, you are doing so well!

So much of what you said reminds me feeding my DD through those early weeks. I think she would do pretty much all of those things you mentioned. But she got much, much better at feeding as she got older (as they do).

With the positioning not being right (bringing that bottom lip up) and changing during the feed, my DD did this and I used to hold her head with one hand and my boob with the other and kind of keep her clamped on so she couldn't move. I think I probably had a pillow under her body to raise her up. It seemed to work for me Actually I still hold my boob in position for her now otherwise she backs off and doesn't take enough nipple into her mouth.

particularly on the left side, she will do some fast sucks, and then not suck for a few seconds (maybe 20?) and then will suck really really hard.

She's probably just adjusting her sucking to your flow, so you're probably getting a let-down and she doesn't need to suck at that point, then the let-down will go and she thinks "hey, what happened, I want some more of that". Lots of babies, mine include, actually pull of completely during let-down and milk spurts out everywhere. Some people suggest you express until you get a let-down and then put them on so they're less likely to be fussy like that, but I never bothered, we just kind of worked through it.

More hugs and support to you!

[Kmn]

Mel - are you right handed? I found that the side with the more coordinated arm was much easier to keep bub where he was supposed to be when using a football hold!
If this is part of the issue then you can use a football hold on the right and a cradle hold on the left, so that you are always using your coordinated arm!
Over the next few weeks Eden's mouth will grow and she'll get stronger and less floppy - which makes things vastly easier.
THe cluster feeding in the evening is totally normal. You can either give her the same boob until it feels empty or gets sore or the other one feels too full, or keep swapping. Whichever you prefer.
The most important thing at this stage is to manage your boobs so that they don't get too engorged for too long - so remember to express if she does have a big sleep and you feel like you are exploding!
Yay for you both!

[paradise lost]

Question (which i won't wait for you to answer...lol): are your boobs pretty big?

Your lefty problem sounds SO familier to me! Only it was my righty that DD did that with...

My right boob had more milk, so a little suck suck suck then a giant pause while she just let the let-down pour into her mouth, then every now and again a hard suck to keep it flowing without more effort/drowning herself - eventually she would go to fluttery sucks, but it was WEEKS before she could drain my whole right boob that way! When i pumped at about 2 months PP i can remember getting 100mls from lefty and 280 from righty!!!

Anyway, my tips.... Have a muslin cloth with you. Every time she looses grip and hurts and you take her off to re-attach, dry your boob and her mouth/lips (gently). A dry boob is WAY easier to get a grip on and a big wet booby is so slippy it's really easy to slide off and then start doing things like clamping upwards to try to stay on... Re-attach as many times as necessary - remember shes still learning what a "good" latch feels like, and only by being corrected can she learn. So yep, take her off and put her back. On day 3 i counted and in one feed i re-attached DD 34 times! And she was a pretty brilliant BFer, so as you can see these issues are incredibly normal. I never got damaged nipples, which was my main aim, plus she got masses of milk and my supply was good because she got about 5 let-downs a feed being off and on and off and on like that! By the 3rd WEEK i was having to correct her re-attachment about once every 2 days (usually because she began to nod off and slipped off a bit), things get easier fast! One last thought - with DD i wrapped her arms to feed her (just swaddled her basically). You don't mention her wriggling with her arms but i definitely found it helped DD to focus during those early days, without the distraction of her still-largely-random body movements making staying on harder

Good on you love. Hang in there.

Bxxx

[Arimeh]

Bx - yup big boobs here!!!! Massive at the moment actually.. LOL

What you described is exactly what she does - do a T. Especially the light fluttery sucks - she does that too.

Nice to know its all "normal" - oh and yes I am right handed

[Pretty Butterfly]

So her issues (our issues?) are that particularly on the left side, she will do some fast sucks, and then not suck for a few seconds (maybe 20?) and then will suck really really hard. Problem is, because she has totally relaxed and released her grip, my nipple has gone a bit out of position, so then it kills and I have to reattach her. So every 30 seconds of the feed I'm basically reattaching her. Is there a secret I'm missing out on on the left side? Cos she has a longer suck when she is on the right.

She is also used to the quick action of a bottle too, so she may get a little frustrated trying to get a let down from the breast... she will learn that sucking WILL get her some milk!!
Are you right handed?? I found I held my babies differently on the left, as I was more comforable on the right side myself. Just keep re-attching, it will sort it self out if you dont let her suck the "wrong" way.



Another issue - she won't stop bringing her bottom lip up around the nipple. Its not too bad on the right side, must have a tougher nipple or whatever, and I don't end up with the lipstick shape, even though she's basically sucking just my nipple - she has a light suck when she's on that side, so I must have a good flow or whatever cos she barely needs to suck and it appears that she is swallowing (and still chucking - I nearly cry when she chucks cos its my milk not formula!!!)

I never did, and still dont!!! All my babies seem to have their bottom lip on the edge of my areola, and more breast in the top of the mouth. As long as she is taking enough milk, and its not hurting, its fine. Sometimes, once bubs are used to feeding well, it can look like their barely hanging on to the breast!!


Another problem - she doesn't stay on for too long before she will sorta fall asleep and let go - last night from 7am to 10.30 I was basically feeding her every 20 minutes, so I don't know if I'm supposed to be switching sides when she lets go and has a small nap, or vomit, or burp or whatever, or if I'm supposed to be going back to that side? She doesn't feed for very long - maybe 7 - 15 minutes on one side (15 minutes at the max).


Witching hours babe, very common for bub to be on/off for a few hours, filling up. They will generally then have a larger sleep for you though!! If she seems to have taken a lot of milk, lay her up on you, try to get a burp up, and put to bed.... but she still may feed lots before actual "bed time".. I have found when really young my lot wouldn't take 2 full sides, just one at a time. Make sure you feel emptyish before moving to the other side, it will keep bobbies draining and re filling nicely!!


We had an alright night I think considering that she had been on the bottle mostly since birth (EBM and top ups) she fed at midnight and 5am, and then woke up again at 7.30. So since 7.30 she has fed on the left side twice and right side once. Should I just be continuing to go back to the one side? This is my first real bfing experience so of course I'm friggin clueless.

Midnight to 5 is awesome, those witching hours are working babe... If she takes a big feed, swap sides... if she just takes a little snack, try that side again next time.
Any help would be fantastic [/QUOTE]


SO SO proud of you and little Eden!!!


Please note, advise is definatly not from a pro!!! Just from me......

[paradise lost]

I was a 36JJ when i was a week PP. So i'd say that's normal for us busty lasses too

Bxxx

[thepixie]

Sounds like you've got some great advice just wanted to pop in and say


Awesome work babe!!
As Rach said, they get better as they get older (as you can already see with Eden) these days DD could attach to a passing boobie while hanging by her ankles from a chandelier!

[~clover~]

Awesome job having her on boob alone for this long!!
Just concentrate on one more day for now. Then maybe you could aim for one more week. Then a month. By then you'll both be right in the swing of things & you'll wonder why it was so hard & you let it stress you so much!
It usually takes 6 - 8 weeks to smooth out all the problems. That seems like forever now, but just focus on that one day at a time & it'll be here before you know it.
Be proud

[Jas]

Congratulations! Sounds like you and Edan have climbed most of the mountain you have to climb already! I have no real advice, just wanted to say it all sounds like issues that time and practice will fix.

I'm really really happy for you! I hope you enjoy all those lovely milk drunk moments

[Ryatha]

Yay doing a great job the whole reattaching thing sounds like us as well. In the end Fred would snuggle right in, reattach herself and hold my bb rather than have me interrupt her feeding to reattach! It was so cute, she would almost suffocate herself to stop me from taking her off.

Also I used rescue remedy drops to help my let down. I found it really helped it let down quicker, and then she wouldn't get tired or drop off.

You are doing a great job. 5 hours overnight is brilliant, better than fred who still feeds every 4 hours

Keep up the GREAT work

[MantaRay]

Congratulations Mel!! Woo hoo!! I am so happy for you!!

Mel, can you describe Eden's sucking a little bit more? The fast suck, suck, suck usually happens at the start of a feed before you let down, and can happen again later in a feed in between let downs. When you let down, you will normally notice a rhythmic suck-swallow pattern happening. There can be breaks between swallows at times, but usually there is some suck-swallow first. If Eden doesn't seem to be doing this, it might be that she's falling off before you let down.

Attachment in the beginning really is tricky, especially if you are engorged. I had heaps of problems too. It will get easier though. If you are finding it hard to keep her on in the football hold, maybe feeding while lying on your side, or lying on your back with Eden on your chest might help.

If you feel like giving the ABA helpline a call on 1800 mum 2 mum they can actually talk you through a feed and that might help you to work out what's happening a bit better.

As for when to change sides, it is hard to know. Some babies do finish a side very quickly - J never, ever fed for more than 10 minutes, and rarely longer than 5. Others need over 20 minutes per side. It's usually an idea to offer the second side if the baby has lost interest in the first, but it's ok if she doesn't take it.

Keep up the great work hun. I am so proud of you for getting her to your breast.

[onthefly]

It's a steep learning curve mate so it's always a bit iffy to begin with. But great work on coming so far!

Are you able to see an LC or ABA counsellor so they can troubleshoot the attachment? Often it's an easy fix and then you can avoid potentially doing more damage and ending up with that toe-curling pain.

All the best~~

[Arimeh]

MR - yeah shes doing the suck swallow thing - she just had a feed before and ended up using me as a dummy - ow!! She had pretty much fallen asleep and then would wake a little, remember what was in her mouth and suck so hard! Argh! So she's on her rocker thing now with a real dummy - cos I'm a tad sore on the old lefty now!! lol

Thanks for the advice everyone I'm just taking it day by day, this is the furthest I have come with any of my kids so I'm pretty proud of me. I even packed up my pump and put it in the cupboard (same as the formula )

[Lolli]

Go Mel, go mel, go go go mel!!

Hang on in there. You are doing a kick-butt job, and we're all very proud