Elective C-Section Question...

[Inanna]

I love Michel Odent and that's a wonderful quote that you have shared thankyou Lisa...

I wouldnt' say you are not like anyone here. I certainly have never had a c/section and hope I never will... Yes, the risks are greater... to both mother and baby. That is factual and true...

What do you do though about a woman who just can't do it? Say well sorry my love you just have to? Is that respectful? Is this showing dignity to the birthing Mama?

I dont' agree with c/section for convenience... I don't and I can't understand it because that's not where I am... I don't believe birth should fit into our lives... That's my opinion...

I don't really think that that is what we have been discussing. We have been discussing why women choose c/section. It is a tiny minority that choose it for convenience...
MOre often it is a medical reason/fear or coersion from a medical professional... This is why education is important. Then a woman can decide if this is what she wants... Weighing up all of the facts...

Now, to why a woman would choose the much riskier option of surgical delivery???? Lisa, one very valid reason for some women is the death of a previous baby... It's like a post traumatic response... It is incredibly intense... Each time the midwife puts a doppler to belly the fear strikes... That takes an incredible amount of support, courage and love to get through... Many women do and how wonderful... Some don't and that's okay too.

I don't disagree with the reality that vaginal birth in a healthy mother with a healthy baby is a far safer option than c/section... That is an absolute fact...

However, why we make those choices isn't necessarily so clear cut for every woman...

I find the way you are speaking difficult... especially after such a quote... We need to show all women dignity and respect I think... Replace our own barrow pushing with a little understanding and love...

[christy]

I am passionate about birth choices and women making informed decisions about birthing. After my first child I was devestated because all the choices were taken out of my hands.

I feel that women should have a right to make their choice based on the risks they are willing to take. Personally, I wouldn't choose to have a c/s again. I prefered vaginal birth and personally I would try for a home birth if there is a next time.

Having said that, I feel that attacking someone for their birth choices is just not on. I mean I know that there are more risks having a c/s and I would never encourage someone to go forth & have surgery. BUT I know women who just wouldn't be able to birth naturally. I know in my circumstances that without the beginning intervention I wouldn't have had a c/s. BUT by the time it got that far there was no going back.

I feel that we should be educating women from the beginning of the birthing process. Read informative books and get help and support for birthing. Don't leave it all up to chance. In the end if they choose a c/s, its their informed choice.

[Tracey]

Hmm, how long til there's an infraction issued????

Lisa I am glad to be not like you...

I have birthed both my babies vaginally, but I'd not be so rude & abrupt to those whom have chosen a C/S...

They have their reasons, why not leave well enough alone!

[RachaelAustin]

CSections scare the hell out of me. I very first elective caesarean I saw the woman died of an embolism. She left behind 4 beautiful children. The baby never got to even hear her mammas voice or feel her loving touch. She died on the operating table. So if we are going to talk about choice, let's talk about the baby's choice, I bet that baby would of wanted a mother to grow up with but instead she was denied that basic human necessity. We rave on and on about mothers choice but frequently forget the inocent passenger. Another complication that could have been easily avoided through spontaneous physiological labour.

I urge women who choose csection to explore those reasons and seek counselling and work through those feelings whether it be fear or otherwise. At the end of the day we all want healthy live babies (and mums), and caesarean's aren't the best way to achieve that.

Read Michael Odent's "THE CAESAREAN", a very knowledgeable man and a great book.


In the right place caesareans' can save lives, but they can also kill people, lets not forget that.

I agree with Lisa Barrett, birth is birth is birth. But somehow society is failing women into letting us believe that women should have choice in these matters. The same can be said about formula feeding. I can't imagine any baby putting up their hand and saying, yep I'll have that and start life with a less than perfect start to life. We need to support each other in working through our fears, concerns, worries and doing it together. Not just supporting by saying, it's ok you did your best. That is such a weak comment which no one benefits from. We would do better if we could come to a forum like this and help each other deal with our problems rather than white wash over them.

[Inanna]

I too would urge women to seek counselling and guidance... But Rachel not everyone can do it. Not everyone has it in them, wants to, knows why whatever...

I have not seen a woman die during c/section but I have seen babies die... I have also seen them die vaginally...

I agree with Shannon... There should be more propping up of women... Do you think it's beneficial to say: Oh you had a c/section what a shame you didn't birth vaginally?
I feel like I am swimming up stream here... I am defending the right for women to make an informed choice.... I may not be comfy with that choice but it's NOT my journey or YOUR journey it's theirs... Isn't it a far better "thing" that they felt valued, respected and supported than inferior???

It shouldn't be us and them... Fanny births this side of the room and tummy ones this side???? Again, it's not my birth choice and I urge women to be informed and educated... But let's be kind, gentle and loving not devisive and judgemental...

[RachaelAustin]

Would we be kind to a mother who choose not to put her baby in a car seat when driving? I know I've seen that frequently, and I certainly don't think, "but it's their choice!" The similarities are very similar.

It's certainly not a us and them. My best friend had an emergency caesarean (after a physiological vaginal birth for her first baby, now 3) and I thank God every day, we have that technology or simply he would't be alive. I think it is very ignorant though to shrug one's shoulders and say well it's choice, because when its elective in the abscence of ANY medical or psyhological problems it is a less than perfect way to be born and less than optimal way of starting live as a mother. It's not about making women feel inferior, but rather empowering them, obviously by choosing a unnecessary surgery they aren't feeling very empowed or capable or propably even supported by their care provider. Lets face it in the private system, I don't know anyone who would be turned down for an elective surgery, afterall the surgeon is just looking after his own (or her own) pay packet.

[bailey99]

I think that one of the main things that is being missed here, is that choices are being made for reasons, and those reasons are not being respected. I wish I had a natural birth, but didn't, for reasons I think were valid. I think that it is insulting to compare that to not strapping my child into a car seat.

[Lynn]

I've said it before and I will say it again. Why is it anyone else's business about how a mother chooses to birth their baby.

This thread was started because Keira wanted to know about elective c/s. People responded by giving her some information - positive, non-judgemental information. Shannon gave her a list of website to look at for vaginal and c/s. This is what we should be doing for women that ask questions, not attacking them. They are trying to be informed and educated by asking the questions so why can't we leave this thread to what it was at the beginning - giving Keira positive information.

There are many women out there who regret their c/s either because they had no choice or made an uninformed choice. There are however no woman that regret their decision to empower themselves to a great woman centred active natural birth.

Has a survey or discussion been held to ask every woman that has had a natural birth if they regret it?

For people who have had a trauma with a normal birth choosing a section the next time is often about fear and control. There are other ways to overcome this and there are other options available.

Yes other options are c/s. I believe unless you have had a traumatic vaginal birth how can you comment about why people choose to have a c/s.

Why shouldn't the statistics be thrown in your face when they prove that you are way more likely to face problems following a c/s than you are an active birth. When asking for opinion are you only looking for one that you like?

No statistic should be thrown in anyones face. It is about giving people information in a polite manner. Others have told their story about c/s to give the cons about c/s but it hasn't been thrown in our face.

I am interested to know apart from medical emergencies like placenta previa, what would be the reason for an elective section other than fear, oh convenience may be one I suppose.

Once you've looked at all the facts and evidence, what would make you ignore it except fear of childbirth?

I have looked at all the facts and evidence in regards to vaginally and c/s. But what is important is that I am going to make a decision that is right for ME not anyone else. Fear can be for so many reasons. If someone is scared to give birth and wants to have c/s why should that matter to anyone else but the mother. Why is it our business. What about the fear of losing another baby to cord accident? Is that a strong enough reason. I am not scared of childbirth, I have done it. I am scared of losing another baby and nothing could be more scarier than that.

To me choice in birth is do I birth at home or at hospital. Choosing to have your body cut open for no good reason other that you want to shouldn't really be an option.

Most people (as you put it) have their body cut open for a very good reason. One that you may not agree with you but you don't have to, but they shouldn't be judged either.

Factual evidence is great - but you aren't looking at the bigger picture. Most people that elect to have a c/s is done based on doing their research, being informed, being educated and ultimately making the best decision for THEM. What about the factual evidence of how many c/s have saved babies lives. I wish I was one of these statistics instead of being another type.

At the end of the day we all want healthy live babies (and mums), and caesarean's aren't the best way to achieve that.

And sometimes they are. It depends on each individuals situation.

afterall the surgeon is just looking after his own (or her own) pay packet.

why are obs also sterotyped. They are not always looking after their own pay packet. Alot of them are doing what is best for the mother. My ob has always done the best thing by me.

Flowerchild - everything you said is perfect. You are not making judgement of anyone but just giving facts. That is what we should all be doing. Once again, words of wisdom.

I am absolutely petrified of having a c/s but I am more scared of losing another baby. So what choice do I have, how do I give birth to my next baby. To me, there are risk with both ways but I know that my ultimate goal is walk out of the hospital with my baby in my arms. Whatever choice I make, it will be my choice based on information I have.

Why is there always a debate when a question about c/s is raised. Why can't we be positive about the way a woman chooses to give birth and support her through her decision.

[Lynn]

Anyway, until we have walked in the shoes of others, we shouldn't judge on the choices they make.

Well said

I think it is beautiful how we can support each others decisions even if we haven't experienced their preferred way of birthing.

[BellyBelly]

Wow, this one has exploded today while I was away! Can we please be more supportive of one another, else I will have to close the thread. I think it's great we've all been able to have a say on how we feel on both sides, but I think the points have been made. Thanks ladies.

[Inanna]

It has blown up! I feel sad to read your post Rachel. I too agree that a c/section for no reason is not optimal and again as I said above it's not within my radar...

I can't imagine comparing a birth choice to not strapping a child in safely... I find that offensive personally. But, again it is your opinion and that's what's so wonderful... That we all share our opinions respectfully.

Jovie said she would never contemplate a c/section but she has not been put in the position... I totally understand that. Until I had the recent experiences of the past 2 years I wouldn't contemplate an induction - but it's certainly something I will consider... Trust me I am fully aware, understand the risks... And believe me this baby growing in my belly is just so incredibly precious. I would never do anything to risk his/her health or wellbeing. BUT my head is also important. My head gives birth. If my head can't get around the fear that my baby will die in utero because I am no longer on antiocoagulants than trust me my hoo haa won't be able to push it out!

Sometimes Rachel women have perceived risks... They may not be there but they are very real for the woman... Yep, those risks can be talked through, counselled but sometimes that fear is just too great... I remember a time when I thought similarly to you... A time when I believed that all women can birth vaginally. Being with women, and living my journey has taught me some stuff. Some of that is "before we judge, walk a mile in my moccassins (or someone else's) I remember being with a woman in labour, she was having a vbac... She just couldn't push... She just couldn't. Her body wouldnt' let her. This woman had worked tirelessly for 2 years to have a vaginal birth. She had the props, the support. The vbac friendly doc. The water. It was beautiful. But the trauma was so great. I told her that I could see her baby's hair and it sent her into a spin... She was afraid she would die. The baby would die. She needed to hear the heartbeat - continually but to do that we had to get out of the water. Her face was white with fear. Eventually we made noises. Just like the cows in the cow paddock next door to her house. We laughed and soon we coudl see a forhead. The doppler sounded beautiful and her husbqand said. I believe you can really do this... She did. Now, this was a replication of her first birth. But during her first biarth she had no continuity of care. No support. A sterile room. No knowledge. She says now she feels blessed to know of how we can overcome the fear. BUT that even had she had not been able to she was still the woman she is. We need to remember this. For some of us birth is a walk in the park. For others of us it's not such an easy thing. As women we need to support and love each other. We have much wisdom to impart to each other but it needs to be done respecting that we don't know what is happening for women all of the time.

We do a great disservice to women not to fully inform them. Education needs to happen, loving support and strength of advocacy... But ALL care providers need to be mindful that it's not your birth it's the woman's... If a woman makes an informed choice that is her right... EVEN when we don't think we would make the same choices for ourselves.

Do I think elective c/section should occur because of convenience. My answer to that would be no... Would I support a woman in her choice? Well I have and I would but not without being very clear about risks and my own opinion... That's my right...

Yes, I think that our c/section rate is unacceptable in Australia... BUT we need to look at why... Most women dont' have continuity of care. They don't have a careprovi\der they know and trust... Women enter the birthing room with a stranger... "It's like saying okay take off your clothes and let's get jiggy with it but don't mind us!"
Choice is limited. We are socialised to believe that the doctor knows best. That we are safer in the hands of a doctor in ot than squatting on the floor of a birthing suite or at home, or in the water... This is changing but we need to be gentle.. We need to be loving. We need to be strong and supportive.

We need to involve our children more in the birthing process (I believe) they are the parents of the future. But again for many this isn't acceptable - for many reasons that we may not understand but they are REAL for that person...

MIdwives and Doctors debating their case without considering the WOMAN is detrimental to the cause of swinging back to a more natural approach to birth...

I think it's wonderful that folk can speak their minds in here and be heard... Some of the stories that women have told I know would be hard so thankyou for sharing...

[familygirl]

Good luck Keira in making your decision.

Just remember to base your decision on the advice of your medical team not on the advice of people posting their own personal opinions on a website. While it is great to hear others' opinions, at the end of the day, you have to be happy with the choice you have made. Every woman who has birthed a baby whether via c-section (elective or non-elective) or vaginal birth should be proud of the fact that they have grown another human being and brought them into the world...even if for a short time as has happened with some of the ladies here who were brave enough to tell their stories. IMHO from that moment on, the focus should be on raising a healthy, happy and secure human being. No-one (strangers, relatives, whoever) should continue to harp on about whether or not that baby was brought into the world via surgery or otherwise. Once you become a parent, how you birthed that child doesn't seem so important (assuming all went well no matter what choice you made) as you have so much to focus on in getting used to your new life and adjusting to all the little stages that your little one goes through.

Good luck Keira. I'm sorry an innocent question has probably added to the confusion that you were already feeling.

[lindie]

Lets face it in the private system, I don't know anyone who would be turned down for an elective surgery, afterall the surgeon is just looking after his own (or

Thats pretty nasty!!!!

Kellie I would stop this one soon.

This is getting into the land of liable suits.

[sirhokko]

I haven't posted one opinion on here that I haven't backed up with facts and links, even if they were taken off. It's not just a personal opinion on a website.

It's actually not nasty to say that you wouldn't be turned down for elective surgery in the private system. On average private hospitals have over a 50% rate of c/s. There are many things caught up in business, health is only one of them.

I agree that it's unfortunate that this discussion has become a cat fight. I have never been rude or unruly. I hope that all personal attacks are dealt with equally.

Lisa Barrett

[monnie]

Today I went to my Ob. expecting a routine check-up...

All along I've told him I've wanted a natural birth...I've read alot about active birth...booked in for an active birth workshop...absolutely love the concept of it...and so want to have the opportunity to have one...

EXCEPT...today I was told, that because of my history of fibroids and fibroid surgery in the past (embolisation), I probably have to have a c-section...I was devastated...cried all the way home...

The reason I may have to have a c-section is due to scarring of the uterus...which could then rupture in vaginal birth...causing problems for both me and the baby...

Some of the gentle comments on this thread have been very encouraging to me...thankyou so much!!! Some of the harsher ones have honestly, been quite distressing...

12 hours ago I would never have considered a c-section...now, I have to think differently...I've read the research papers on embolisation and pregnancy...I'm educating myself as much as possible...

I think it is so important to respect people's choices...and know that sometimes those choices are devastatingly hard to make...

[Adnil]

Oh Monnie I'm so sorry. I don't know anything about fibroids, so no advice, I just hope you are doing OK. And it's good you are looking into it all now so that you have lots of time to make a decision & know you are doing what's best for you & bub.

[Inanna]

Big hugs Monnie :hugs: that is distressing... I am sure you will research thoroughly your options... Could you perhaps get a second opinion??? Sending you lots of love

[sirhokko]

Hi Monnie, I'm sorry to hear that your having a hard time. I agree with flowerchild a second opinion. Plus, didn't your Ob know you'd had this done before? I wonder why it wasn't mentioned in a prior visit.

I can certainly send you lots of information if your interested. You can contact me off list. Also there are midwives in your area that could help with information too.

Good Luck
Lisa Barrett