In praise of the C-Section

[kirsty_lee]

I meant after the screaming was over. Not during the screaming. I meant more along the lines of having a crapola day in general etc..

[Inanna]

I understand Kirsty that we all can react badly when our heads are in a bad space. We all have bad days, touchy days - all of us.

However, again, that's our responsibility! We need to say: "only I can control my mouth (or fingers!)"...

It's just uncool & unkind to yell at others - it doesn't matter how bad our days are... YK?

[Mummato2]

I just don't know how far you can take the criticising a system could be seen as criticising an individuals choice...

I had an epidural - I succomed to pressure. It wasn't the fault of the system it was a choice I made albeit in an informed manner. I could blame the doctor, the midwife, my husband the weather for my choice. But in the end it was mine. I got an epidural headache as I chose an intervention.

Could not have said this better myself!!

I was reading a birth story the other day (another site) where the mum had felt a strong pushing urge before she was fully dilated (she knew she was 7cms), knowingly pushed without being told to, then opted for an epidural - continued to push because she could still feel pressure then BLAMED THE EPIDURAL AND DR FOR HER CERVICAL TEARING!!

Everyone agreed it was the Dr's fault and considered it a result from the "cascade of intervention"!!

This really rubs me the wrong way because many women are fighting for Birth Choices and the right to make informed choices without pressure for intervention (home birth etc).

When women blame "the system" or the "cascade of intervention" because of choices they make in labour - then subsequently scream and complain about their treatment - they are giving OB's more reason to be more adamant about taking choice away from women out of fear of women making bad choices then suing them!(and I'm not talking about the cascade where women are pushed into intervention)

With every decision comes a consequence and it is up to WOMEN to make the decisions and read the pros and cons for themselves to every general scenario well before her first contraction. It's only then that she can remain adamant and confident when a scenario plays out in labour.

[femme]

The system is made up of indiviuals not a mindless mass or collective. We need models of care where the woman works in partnership with her care providers with this comes the need to be informed and be responsible for your own decisions too.

The whole structure needs to change. Our whole society is set up for us to not take responsibility and experts and power figures to control us. We have all grown up in this culture and it is hard to take back the power when you dont realise it is yours to have . We have become dependant on approval and permission from authority figures such as doctors and other experts. The power was always there we just didn't realise it. What about the recent story of the hospital sending the police around to a womans home when she didn't turn up to a booked induction that she had told them she wasn't having. That is imtimidation the hospital later appologised and the woman had a waterbirth at home the next day.

Im not sure I would agree that by making poor decisions ending up with undesired outcomes then complaining about them is a justification for obs to be more adamant to control or limit the decisions of women. That sort of smacks of women being silly little things and so they deserve to be controlled and told what to do. Is that how you see it ?
I really dont think it is possible or should be expected that women should research every possible scenario that could occur be informed yes but having to research every scenario some women might not have time for this others dont care it is the manner in which this information is presented at the time of an emergency so as to leave biases out of the equation present the facts and allow the woman to decide what she wants and then support her through the experience.

[Smoke Jaguar]

When we are bombarded with messages that epidurals are a godsend, that docs know exactly what they're doing, and that we must be good little girls and do just what the doc says, no wonder women get angry when they realise just how disempowered their whole approach to reproduction has been. It is NOT an individual failing if a woman chooses interventions that harm her or her baby - it is societal and something that has been actively thrust onto us all our lives. So, yeah, I have to disagree with that, too, though I can see how it appears that way on the surface.

[Mummato2]

Im not sure I would agree that by making poor decisions ending up with undesired outcomes then complaining about them is a justification for obs to be more adamant to control or limit the decisions of women. That sort of smacks of women being silly little things and so they deserve to be controlled and told what to do. Is that how you see it ?

Not what I said or meant. It doesn't justify their want to control however whether or not we like it we are in a litigious society and because of this choice has become limited.

See it from the viewpoint that we are in an age right now where women want control of their birthing choices (rightfully so) and let's be realistic - OB's are crapping themselves thinking of the money they'll lose if control is gone.....yes I see this BUT when someone stands up to an OB and goes against their advice then things go wrong, you've just handed them the very justification they need to control the next woman.....

I am all for women speaking out about the injustices this maternity system causes (high intervention, c-section rates, no choice for birthing options such as home birth etc) however I think there is too much blaming when an informed choice is made by the woman and then something happens so they blame the system or the OB automatically.

I really dont think it is possible or should be expected that women should research every possible scenario that could occur be informed yes but having to research every scenario some women might not have time for this others dont care it is the manner in which this information is presented at the time of an emergency so as to leave biases out of the equation present the facts and allow the woman to decide what she wants and then support her through the experience.

Not every single possible scenario - that would mean she becomes an OB - I am talking about being informed about general scenarios such as epidural, premature pushing, alternatives in monitoring, induction, c-section - general options within those situations so that informed decisions can be made....I am not talking about unforseen circumstances that are treated as an emergency with little time to consider the decision prior to making a choice THEN having time to reflect after the fact....

My whole point in all of this is where there is choice there is consequence. We are not in an age anymore where Dr knows all and women are happy to let them run their birthing experiences. BUT with the demand for birthing options to be given back to the women in our society comes a new responsibility for knowing and being responsible for the consequences - it's only when you know the risk vs benefits can you make a birth choice that is right for the individual.

[Mummato2]

When we are bombarded with messages that epidurals are a godsend, that docs know exactly what they're doing, and that we must be good little girls and do just what the doc says, no wonder women get angry when they realise just how disempowered their whole approach to reproduction has been. It is NOT an individual failing if a woman chooses interventions that harm her or her baby - it is societal and something that has been actively thrust onto us all our lives. So, yeah, I have to disagree with that, too, though I can see how it appears that way on the surface.

No see I agree with that - my point has been missed.

What I meant was it's unfair of a woman to blame her direct action (in this example pushing prior to being fully dilated) on an epidural which clearly had no bearing on whether her cervix would have torn or not. I agree that it isn't a failing if a woman chooses interventions - my first labour was filled with them by my own choosing!

I just feel that where there is blame on interventions for blames sake, we are giving the OB's exactly what they want!

[Inanna]

I think I get what you are saying Mumma... I also agree with your sentiment.
However, I think the two separate issues are overlapping & causing some confusion..

I believe our maternity services are medicalised & driven by fear - I believe that as mothers we will do anything to protect our babies - so when emotive language is used in the throes of labour this fear can propell a woman to make decisions for her body & her baby that she may not have otherwise made.

When I said the above quote I made a choice to have an epidural as I was being harassed to have a c/section - I was in quite horrendous pain. I made the choice to have an epidural that was fully informed (because I was educated in epidurals)

I cannot lay blame on my care provider for the outcome of my epidural as it was a risk I took, a fully informed one... Hoever, had the doctor not been so agressive & pushy about a c/section I would not have made that choice.... However, I am responsibile for my choice... Do you get me?
The system failed in that my wishes were not listened to. That is I will not have surgery unless my baby is showing signs of distress. I was hounded & harassed.

I too believe that as consumers we need to take more responsibility for our choices & our decisions.
I read and hear often about women having tests, interventions, c/sections, operations etc because it was deemed best. However, there seems to be a thread of handing over our power, choice to a those that are seen as in a position of 'authority"... We have a society that seeks to lay blame for any bad feeling that comes up for us. I feel bad because you said breast is best. I feel bad because you said medicalisation of birth takes away a sacred rite/right. I feel bad because you said..... Nothing is brought back to the I... I am feeling something - why would that be... I am responsibile for my feelings and thus my reactioms...

That doctors will "save us" from dealing with the hard stuff. There is a fear of the hard stuff. I challenge always that the hard stuff is our mettle. It forges us. We have a respomsibility to be informed - to seek our the information that will inform us. Not just say: "whatever you think is best"... Now, clearly one who has studied for countless years and worked in a field has more experience & knowledge - that's why we seek them out to care for us. BUT again there is a problem. Women hire doctors and midwives & systems of care that they have doubts about. They don't like his or her manner, or some of their views but he or she is the best or whatever reason they have. Women need to listen to their doubts and their concerns & seek out care and care providers that marry with their own ethos...

We cannot engage a high risk obstetrician for our birth in a private hospital and wonder why we got a c/section. For statistically that's what you'll likely get.

Just as you cannot engage a homebirth midwife to assist you to deliver a baby at 32 weeks at home. You will likely run into grave problems. (not that a homebirth midwife would do this but just to illustrate)

This handing over of power happens in all areas of health care.

Ill or injured clients defer to the knowledge of others without seeking out information, stats and experiences. It is this labile mind set that causes issues.

Whilst we continue to hand our health/maternity care over to others without owning responsibility for our decisions we will have unsatisfactory care.

I have not made a single decision withoit researching it first. So many occassions whilst Imogen was in NICU and special care. I was pressured to make decisions that my intuition screamed no at... I was steadfast. At times I was treated like a fool - but mostly I was treated with respect as I clearly knew what I was on about...

We all need to foster that sense of self responsibility for our care. It's like smoking and wondering WTH you get cancer or cardiac disease, then suing the company... It's not okay (IMO) You smoke you die and take those that passively smoke around you down with you...

You educate yourself and make a choice that doesn't pan out - you accept that you made an error in judgement. You can't then search for a scapegoat... Do you get my illustration?

Similarly with my first birth I had a midwife that didn't gel with my spirituality... She was a very openly evangelistical Christian. She also was not good at responsibility. She was one who blamed the system, delayed transfer etc etc. I overloked it all as she was the only homebirth midwife available to me at that time.

I know that I was unable to progress largely due to my discomfort with her... That's not her fault! She was who she was (beautiful and kind - just not on my wavelength) - I made a choice against my better judgement. I didn't listen to my inner voice... I set myself up for difficulty & I got them!

It's really about that - self responsibility for our choices and actions...

[Mummato2]

I think I get what you are saying Mumma... I also agree with your sentiment.
However, I think the two separate issues are overlapping & causing some confusion........................

YES !! Exactly!!! Sorry - I have a foggy head today from a 2 year old that kept me up last night (toddler bed transition)

But exactly!! Women want more control over our maternity health care choices - and I think it's brilliant. But with that choice comes responsibility. You're right - while we have no control we have no choice. Dr's will do what they will do and then it's the women that feel like the victim (which I totally get!).

And yes, Obstetric choices are based on fear - unfortunately this is all too common and happened with me as well in my first labour. I was told with external monitoring that one thing they look for before inducing is heartrate and Cooper's heartrate was enough to go straight to a c-section.

I fought with everything I had to have my vaginal birth - and he was fine. Had I have listened or consented his birth would have been a very different one!

[Smoke Jaguar]

Oooh, yes, I did miss the bit about her not being fully dilated! To me, that illustrates how little a lot of women trust their own instincts to birth, because the messages are getting all screwed up in our heads between well-meaning advice from people we know and self-interested advice from a lot of Obs (not all, I realise). I still can't blame an individual for that erosion of inner knowledge and trust in the birth process that is the product of decades of telling women they don't actually know how to do birth without the help of someone with a certificate and fellowship of a particular doctors' college
We ARE still in an age where the doctor knows all and the woman just does as instructed...I KNOW these women! There is resistance to it and some of us are working against this, but we're not the norm by a long shot, or the system would be like the UK's, the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Canada and NZ, where c-section rates are lower because women have truer choice and greater access to real information. When interventions happen in these contexts, it's got a far more genuine reason than unnecessary interventions in the first place.
Anyway, that's my perspective. I don't condemn women who choose interventions, because that's not fair. I look to the wider context of what led her there and I'm not happy with that context in this country

[Mummato2]

Anyway, that's my perspective. I don't condemn women who choose interventions, because that's not fair. I look to the wider context of what led her there and I'm not happy with that context in this country

You're right - and it's crap in this country. It boggles my mind why we (along with America) are so stripped of choice when it comes to birth BUT with rally's like Canberra and reform reviews underway - we are going to get there.

[Inanna]

I absolutely agree with you too Maya! I am speaking from my perspective... Because I am informed and I am empowered.

There are women like you and myself that are informed and empowered.

However, the erosion of women's belief in birth and their own bodies has happened over a long time. I cannot "blame" women for that. I can hold the medicalisation of birth responsible - however remembering that women often didn't give over their belief in their bodies quickly. It happened insidiously, based on womens own need to keep their babies safe. It happened I believe in the beginning based on the superiority of men's minds to the innate knowledge of women - however that's a whole other thread.! So blame is defunct. It happened - it's history. Now let's make new history. Let's breed and nurture a whole new wave of woman that questions, makes informed choices and owns her part in this decision....

[BellyBelly]

Let's breed and nurture a whole new wave of woman that questions, makes informed choices and owns her part in this decision....

What a damn fine idea.... exactly what I have in mind. Cheers to that

[Bathsheba]

I was in hospital with my DS when this thread was "live" so have just stumbled across it. I'm really impressed Such a wealth of insight. On the whole I agree with the sentiment that BB provides an invaluable medium of expression for so many taboo and controversial topics ( Lori). Sure we all come here for differing reasons... some to just have a bit of fun, a joke or two, some come because we are lonely in our role of stay at home parent, some come to be educated, some for a bit of mental stimulation and sadly some come with sole purpose to vent to the point of making someone "pay" for their own personal miseries. Whatever the reason BB most definitely deals with it all and US all professionally.

Regarding the original post. I tend to agree with Maya. Whilst it was an interesting article I wouldn't call it "information" as such... more "opinion based on experience". Like Maya said, ok, it might be hair splitting but I think the subtle difference is important. I feel that information is objective and opinion is subjective. BellyBelly has a wealth of information in it's article section... the forums can also be a source of information but call me a snob but i like my info cross referenced with credit given to the source LOL I think that many people get confused about what real information is these days... with all the info-tainment and tabloid reporting that is passed as quality reporting no wonder the defition is blurred. But I tell you what... BB does encourage its members to be discerning consumers of information.

Another another great point has been raised: with choice comes responsibility... (I kinda want to start a devoted thread about it). Anyone who has ever shopped for breakfast cereal knows how frustrating it can be to be given a choice!!! An aisle longer than than your average suburban street and you still don't know which packet to put in the trolly! It's because you know that your should be reading all those "Nutritional Information" labels... how much sodium? How much Sugar? How guilty are you going to feel if the one you select gets the frown of disapproval next time your mother visits? What's best for "Food Miles" (the environment). What's affordable? Where has it been made? (Do I trust that country?). How many preservatives? Is it genetically modified? The list goes on... But everyone says how wonderful choice is! Bloody stressful more like it! I'm NOT saying choice is bad BTW it's vital. But you can't have your cereal and eat it You want choice then you have to also accept the role of choosing responsibly. That was the deal Eve accepted when she bit that apple... no more blissful ignorance for us! *insert equally valid analogy from your belief system*. And this is exactly why we need sites like BB to navigate the maze of choices that are put before us in life.... from birth to choosing which bench-top mixer! Some people have accused this navigation as "over analysing", maybe, but like Kelly said mentioned: that's how the female brain is wired and I believe it serves a purpose.

It's been a great read people

[Mummato2]

Another another great point has been raised: with choice comes responsibility... (I kinda want to start a devoted thread about it). Anyone who has ever shopped for breakfast cereal knows how frustrating it can be to be given a choice!!! An aisle longer than than your average suburban street and you still don't know which packet to put in the trolly! It's because you know that your should be reading all those "Nutritional Information" labels... how much sodium? How much Sugar? How guilty are you going to feel if the one you select gets the frown of disapproval next time your mother visits? What's best for "Food Miles" (the environment). What's affordable? Where has it been made? (Do I trust that country?). How many preservatives? Is it genetically modified? The list goes on... But everyone says how wonderful choice is! Bloody stressful more like it! I'm NOT saying choice is bad BTW it's vital. But you can't have your cereal and eat it You want choice then you have to also accept the role of choosing responsibily. That was the deal Eve accepted when she bit that apple... no more blissful ignorance for us! *insert equally valid analogy from your belief system*. And this is exactly why we need sites like BB to navigate the maze of choices that are put before us in life.... from birth to choosing which bench-top mixer! Some people have accused this navigation as "over analysing", maybe, but like Kelly said mentioned: that's how the female brain is wired and I believe it serves a purpose.

It's been a great read people

I think this would be a fantastic thread to branch off on and focus on.

Also, your analogy was spot on!

[BellyBelly]

Moving this to the birth/labour forums - I think this is well and truly a discussion in relation to c/s

[Bathsheba]

Good idea Kelly.... I don't often venture into the Men's Forum (unless they are chattin' about Footy LOL) and it kinda reinforces Suse's point that you do have to consider the area of the Forum that you are in when you post. I was wondering whether I should have been more respectful of the male perspective... IYKWIM?

[Visitor6]

Thanks.........