Reply With Quote:yeahthat:
I think you summed up exactly the points I was trying to make (with my 9 month preggie brain)
Well said matie
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What a great discussion (not a fight at all).
I only got to page 7 and my head is spinning with all the fantastic points raised. I want to give my 2 cents and don't know where to start.
Firstly, thanks for sharing the c/s article/birth story that started all of this. It was a great read. I think one of the things that are misleading is the title: In praise of the c-section. I think if it was titled "In praise of my c-section" it would already be different. It is this particular c-section the writer is so happy with, in the context of it saving the life of her baby and quite possibly her own. She is not talking about elective c-sections being a better choice than vaginal births when there is no medical reason for an operation. Nobody is disputing that necessary c-sections are a godsend.
My sister in law had a c-section. It was not an emergency. It was however necessary. She is tiny but carried a relatively large child which ended up pushing onto her kidneys (one had stopped working due to the pressure, the other was compromised). This was not life-threatening. But it was very painful and bad for her health. She was told, an induction would be too stressful for her body, so she had a c/s at 38 weeks (a day after diagnosis). She never felt like a failure. She isn't a failure. It was out of her control.
During my pregnancy with DS, I was told there was a relatively high chance I would have placenta praevia. So a c/s was a definite possibility for me. I did feel a little sad when considering it. Especially after a beautiful empowering water birth with DD. I had been looking forward to more of the same. But I quickly came to terms with the possibility of needing a c/s. No feeling of guilt or failure. Just a little disappointment. Just like you might be disappointed at the weather or other things that are completely beyond your control.
By the way, my PP corrected itself (as most do). But I agree,in the situation mentioned by a previous poster, in that moment, it was probably not the right thing to say. That should have been brought up before the c/s or well after, if the mother initiated. Not shortly after when it is still so raw and emotional.
On the other hand, my friend wanted a natural birth. Her baby ended up being awkwardly positioned with a huuuge head. Long, difficult labour. She ended up with really bad internal tearing and a fistula. A year later she is still up for more corrective surgery. Yet she has never blamed the doctors for not intervening earlier. She has also never said she wished she had planned for an elective c/s from the start. Or that vaginal births in general are dangerous. She has accepted this as an unfortunate outcome, but has never questioned her choices. I really commend her for that. And she does have a beautiful son to show for it.
I do believe BB is a very respectful and informative forum. Yes, it is a little biased towards natural birth, gentle parenting and other ideals that are not exactly mainstream. That is what is so fantastic about it. If I wanted to know about the advantages of epidurals, I could ask an OB. If I wanted to know how to control cry my baby, I could ask my MCHN (I know this is an unfair generalisation, I'm just trying to make a point). I also could ask most mothers I know - excluiding the ones I met through BB. Mainstream ideals are not hard to find support for. It is those of us who don't feel that those ideals sit right with them, who seem to have a lot more problems finding support for their choices.
NOBODY I know or have ever talked to on BB thinks necessary c-sections are bad. Most of us think we're very fortunate to have the medical system as backup for when things go wrong. It is misinformation and fear-mongering that we have an issue with.
The lady in the original article does not seem to hold a grudge with what happened during the birth of her child. And that is great. There is no reason to. She needed a c/section - period. There is no reason for guilt. Grief - possibly (although not in her case). But not guilt. She just has an issue with other people making assumptions and making a value judgement based on only the method of delivery, in the absence of any further information. And I completely agree, this is neither fair nor right.
ETA: On re-reading the original article, she does actually express some grief or loss about not having experienced a natural birth. So she is not even saying that women shouldn't feel loss. They just shouldn't have to feel guilt, shame, judgement orinferiority.
For what it's worth, no matter how you bring your children into the world, people will always judge you. My DD was a birth centre water birth. I had people rolling their eyes at me when hearing that she was born in water. I declined the HepB shot at birth and was shocked how much judgement I got from nurses and doctors. My son was born at home. No, it was not planned. He just didn't mess about once he had finally made up his mind to come out. The way people react to this story still amazes me. Some people think I'm nuts and a tree-hugging hippie (when they see he is wearing cloth nappies, that just confirms their belief). It's like they decide instantly that I am not to be taken seriously as I'm a naive natural birth nut. And when they listen long enough to realise he wasn't meant to be born at home, I do get the impression that they believe I have brought it on myself because I somehow subconsciously delayed going to the birth centre. But others treat me like I'm some sort of hero for it. I am neither. Fortunately, most people just react in amazement. Not at me, but at the circumstances, which were rather memorable. But then again, all births are.
And yes, Inanna, when telling people that I was planning for DD to be present at the birth, people frequently reacted in horror or disgust. In fact, she handled it extremely well and I am glad she was there (even if DH had to miss it)
The notion that has been brought up a while ago, that it is only the result that counts, really annoys me. Of course it counts that you have a healthy living baby in your arms. That is the MOST important thing. But it is not the ONLY important thing. The hormonal, emotional and physical journey into motherhood is also very important. The hormonal ****tail released during labour has physical effects on both, the mother and the baby.
My son's frantic birth has impacted my ability to bond with him. Not hugely, but noticeably. And only in the first couple of months. However, if I mention that IRL, most people look at me in disbelief and tell me that I'm ungrateful and that I should thank my lucky stars that I birthed him so easily. I DO thank my lucky stars. Not only that the birth was "easy", but also that there were no complications as I would have been completely unprepared. But only on BB can I find people who understand that there might be a little more to it than just the "mother and baby are healthy".
I'm sorry, as usual, I'm rambling and even I don't quite know what my point is anymore.
I guess, one of them is that while we do not set out to intentionally hurt someone's feelings or induce guilt, we should be able to state our opinion and the facts. Political correctness can be taken too far and blur the issue. If I say, that breastmilk is better than formula, that doesn't mean that I condemn women for formula feeding. It also doesn't mean that I hold breast feeding women on a pedestal. It means only one thing: human milk is better than artificial milk. What you do with that information, how you choose to use it, is up to you.
Likewise, if I say, a natural vaginal birth has many benefits to mother and baby that outlast the perinatal period, that does not mean that I think c/s mums are inferior to mums who pushed a baby out. All the emotion that goes into this, although understandable, is making us read into statements way too much.
And to the poster who doesn't frequent this forum anymore: thanks for your enlightening contribution.
Last edited by sunshine_sieben; February 1st, 2010 at 01:40 PM. : typos and minor changes/additions
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:yeahthat:
I think you summed up exactly the points I was trying to make (with my 9 month preggie brain)
Well said matie
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
Consider this though: next time you see/hear someone who you think is 'judging' you... decide that actually, you're okay. That it's nothing to do with you, it's THEIR issues and immature behaviour. They do not have the life skills to respect other's decisions... and why should they care about what you choose and what you want? It's nothing to do with them... but it is to do with their own issues or lack of life skills. So don't let it get to you. You did the right thing for YOU. Perhaps it's not what you wanted or would choose now. But its part of your journey and happened because it meant to... and you can choose to learn and grow from it tooBe it a lesson in how to deal with judgmental people... or a purpose you might have in life to inform and educate others... or perhaps get a deeper understanding of what it's like to live in another set of shoes based on an event happening which you didnt expect.
Kelly xx
Creator of BellyBelly.com.au, doula, writer and mother of three amazing children
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- not only these factors. It was also due to other factors such as women not having access to the appropriate medical treatment needed for their pregnancy as well as not knowing all we know now about bub in the womb (thanks to ultrasound etc)
You tell me? I didn't think there was anything wrong with her feeling comfortable enough to trust the OB's opinion and not question his decision. I thought it was fantastic that she felt she could talk openly about her experience and come to terms with her birth. It's just a shame one person decided to open their mouth without thinking
You're right in that she wanted to get some support or compassion regarding her birth and probably didn't choose the right moment to broach this.
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That's actually really sound advice. Well said KellyConsider this though: next time you see/hear someone who you think is 'judging' you... decide that actually, you're okay. That it's nothing to do with you, it's THEIR issues and immature behaviour. They do not have the life skills to respect other's decisions... and why should they care about what you choose and what you want? It's nothing to do with them... but it is to do with their own issues or lack of life skills. So don't let it get to you. You did the right thing for YOU. Perhaps it's not what you wanted or would choose now. But its part of your journey and happened because it meant to... and you can choose to learn and grow from it too
Hindsight is a beautiful thing - it just comes at the wrong time. For me, my first birth was filled with interventions under an OB. It is because of my analysis of the situation and research to alternative options that I've made a huge change in my birthing philosophy this time around
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
Ahh I thought you were pointing out this bit as being a problem, wires crossed obviously here!:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellyBelly
To give you an example, another of my friend's needed a CS for a placenta previa (something completely out of her hands and it wasn't as though she was going to make the decision to birth vaginally for obvious reasons). We were talking about her birth last weekend with a few of our friends, she was debriefing and saying how she is coming to terms with it and also that this is her one and only baby so she just needs to accept she'll not know what it is to birth vaginally.
>>> What's wrong with this bit? <<<
You tell me? I didn't think there was anything wrong with her feeling comfortable enough to trust the OB's opinion and not question his decision. I thought it was fantastic that she felt she could talk openly about her experience and come to terms with her birth. It's just a shame one person decided to open their mouth without thinking
Kelly xx
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Nah - it's easy to do in writing and no tone in voice
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I agree
And as posted -
I couldn't say it better
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Kind of off on a tangent, but ultrasound and prenatal testing have probably increased the loss of fetus' (through selecting termination) than increased safety of bubs.
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Sobering truth, Kate, and very, very true.
Great post Sunshine Sieben!This is precisely how I feel, sometimes I admit to feeling intensely frustrated at conclusions that speaking of optimal is to criticise those that don't... I know that is the issue of the "hearer" but still I need to work on those feelings in myself...If I say, that breastmilk is better than formula, that doesn't mean that I condemn women for formula feeding. It also doesn't mean that I hold breast feeding women on a pedestal. It means only one thing: human milk is better than artificial milk. What you do with that information, how you choose to use it, is up to you.
Likewise, if I say, a natural vaginal birth has many benefits to mother and baby that outlast the perinatal period, that does not mean that I think c/s mums are inferior to mums who pushed a baby out. All the emotion that goes into this, although understandable, is making us read into statements way too much.
I also agree that ultrasound has contributed to the loss of the fetus. It also (I believe) has contributed to the loss of sacredness & trust in birth/pregnancy & woman's bodies...
I feel confused sometimes myself as I see great benefits to this amazing medical advance - I also see the down side...
I feel concerned and sometimes even perplexed at the intrusion on the fetus in utero... (remember I had more u/s than can be counted during my last pregnancy - this is not a criticisim). In the past women went inside themselves, they searched for strength & worked on trust. Now we hand that over to the tech with the probe...
Without u/s I wonder what my pregnancy would have been like... Without u/s many wouldn't be here!
However, there is always a price to pay for any advance - the price here is women losing trust in their bodies, the fear associated with the procedure, the decisions that need to be made...
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Thanks, Inanna
And right back at you. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the 2 sides to every medical advance. Just like all drugs have side effects, so do technologies like u/s, fetal monitoring, etc. That is why I am against the idea of routine anything. I think we should look at everything we do, be it taking medication, vaccination, diagnosing/screening tools, look into them and then weigh up the pros and cons and base our decisions on that. We might decide that we want to go with the suggested schedule or we might not. But just because that's the way it is done, is not a good enough reason FOR ME.
For example: With DS, I declined the 12 week u/s because I was low risk and didn't want to have to act on any information I might have found out. Hence, I would not have gained anything valuable from the u/s. In this case, the "procedure" was not warranted. I did however agree to the 20 week u/s as I wanted to make sure my placenta was out of the way. Here I could find out information that was valuable to me, so I deemed it worth the risk. I did then have to have another u/s late in my pregnancy which showed the placenta had moved out of the way. Again, the result justified the risk.
Sorry, this was totally on a tangent...
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