In praise of the C-Section

A general comment on BB and the views which are advocated here:

Kelly and her team do a ripper job of providing a place for support for mothers (and fathers) no matter what their various persuasions, opinions and so on. Having been fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to be a mod a while ago, I know from personal experience that in the very rare event that when a member makes a very judgmental or unkind comment about another's choices, that it is dealt with swiftly and professionally. I don't think the commitment nor the integrity of any of the team can be called into question because they are all united in being supportive.

I think the 'problem' on BB, and indeed on other forums (fora, whatever) is the situation whereby members submit to what I would term experience grading, and a willingness to self chastise; I've commented on this before. Every time anyone adds to/sympathises with a thread where a member is running themselves down because they had a c/s, a failed VBAC, a hard vag birth, problems with b/f etc etc, they are compounding the problem. This creates an underlying culture where unwarranted self criticism and unnecessary judgment is validated and even encouraged. It's a culture I've been all to aware of since I started here, and something which really concerns and disappoints me. So many mothers tie themselves up in knots thinking they've failed, when in reality they are all winners. If you can't do something, you can't do it. End of. Self flagellation will get you nowhere, yet it is a strong undercurrent here. Everyone is so keen to compare, to evaluate, to judge; that is where the perception of negativity comes from, and I think that is what is being alluded to in many cases. Continual reinforcement by members of the bad aspects of c/s, and "breast is best" etc is extremely repetitious, very droll, and not at all useful. We know, so let it go.

No two experiences will ever be the same, and trying to stack each one up against the other is doomed to failure and counter-productive to the whole purpose of this site. I think this is particularly evident with people listing in their sigs that they have cloth bummed, drug free vag birthed, b/f'ed, co-sleeping, sling worn, blah blah blah babies. It creates cliques and unintentional divisions and competitions and creates a very self conscious and defensive culture. Be proud of your achievements, but be modest too.

Please don't take this as a slag off, or me having a rip at anyone - it's a very general comment coming from the perspective of a childless male - and I reckon that gives me the ability to stand on the outside and look in a lot better than many of you. Feel free to write me off as a DH, I won't be offended, but for God's sake just give yourselves a break and relax. Blokes on the one hand are often hopelessly inadequate at self analysis and dealing with deeper emotional issues, whereas you lot make an art form out of it and make it much harder on yourselves than it need be.

Peace out.

Slyder, I agree completely.

I've had three homebirths with my DW. We've been judged - a lot - for that choice. We couldn't even tell my MIL what we were planning for our first baby! We've been called all sorts of things for making the choice that we made. But I don't come onto a forum and expect anyone else to pat me on the back for that choice; nor do I expect anyone else to modify their opinion, or refrain from posting, if they disagree. In fact, I welcome it - I enjoy debating the pros and cons of homebirth. To put things in perspective, I am a homebirthing, elective-non-vaccination father who happens to work in a very conservative country hospital with two very conservative paediatricians! But I am happy with my choices - I own them, whether they lead to positive outcomes or negative outcomes - and as you so eloquently point out, there is just no point trying to measure them against someone else's experiences.

Bravo, sir.

Thank you, Slyder for your words. Very well said.

That would make a great END to this thread.

What if you're someone who likes to have the last word though? :think:

:lol:

Hang on.... you want to END a conversation on a forum you no longer frequent.... but here you are.

Since you don't frequent this forum, maybe you need to think why comments you don't like should compel you to want them to end - because if you're not here and participating then it shouldn't effect you (which was the purpose of leaving?), which leads one to believe something still effects you when you're not even here. Does debate on BB make you feel uncomfortable and if so why? Do opposing views make you feel uncomfortable and if so why? You don't have to answer that out loud, they are your personal feelings that don't need to be shared.

I can think of some other sites which are loads more challenging than BB. So something still going on there I think, the members don't need to be rescued, there are here on their own free will (and have their own feelings and beliefs) as are the mods who share the same philosophies about birth. We're doing great here, I think it's been a great conversation.

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A general comment on BB and the views which are advocated here:

Kelly and her team do a ripper job of providing a place for support for mothers (and fathers) no matter what their various persuasions, opinions and so on. Having been fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to be a mod a while ago, I know from personal experience that in the very rare event that when a member makes a very judgmental or unkind comment about another's choices, that it is dealt with swiftly and professionally. I don't think the commitment nor the integrity of any of the team can be called into question because they are all united in being supportive.

I think the 'problem' on BB, and indeed on other forums (fora, whatever) is the situation whereby members submit to what I would term experience grading, and a willingness to self chastise; I've commented on this before. Every time anyone adds to/sympathises with a thread where a member is running themselves down because they had a c/s, a failed VBAC, a hard vag birth, problems with b/f etc etc, they are compounding the problem. This creates an underlying culture where unwarranted self criticism and unnecessary judgment is validated and even encouraged. It's a culture I've been all to aware of since I started here, and something which really concerns and disappoints me. So many mothers tie themselves up in knots thinking they've failed, when in reality they are all winners. If you can't do something, you can't do it. End of. Self flagellation will get you nowhere, yet it is a strong undercurrent here. Everyone is so keen to compare, to evaluate, to judge; that is where the perception of negativity comes from, and I think that is what is being alluded to in many cases. Continual reinforcement by members of the bad aspects of c/s, and "breast is best" etc is extremely repetitious, very droll, and not at all useful. We know, so let it go.

No two experiences will ever be the same, and trying to stack each one up against the other is doomed to failure and counter-productive to the whole purpose of this site. I think this is particularly evident with people listing in their sigs that they have cloth bummed, drug free vag birthed, b/f'ed, co-sleeping, sling worn, blah blah blah babies. It creates cliques and unintentional divisions and competitions and creates a very self conscious and defensive culture. Be proud of your achievements, but be modest too.

Please don't take this as a slag off, or me having a rip at anyone - it's a very general comment coming from the perspective of a childless male - and I reckon that gives me the ability to stand on the outside and look in a lot better than many of you. Feel free to write me off as a DH, I won't be offended, but for God's sake just give yourselves a break and relax. Blokes on the one hand are often hopelessly inadequate at self analysis and dealing with deeper emotional issues, whereas you lot make an art form out of it and make it much harder on yourselves than it need be.

Peace out.

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Slyder, while i do see what you are saying- see my sig for evidence of that- I just have to put this out there (I was going to let it END, but it's been bugging me, ok?)

What you are referring to in the last paragraph there, the analysis (over analyisis, if you will) of ourselves, and the exploration of the deeper issues, is one of the things I love about BB. Because how often can we do that, IRL? So often IRL, issues that women have are swept under the carpet- how they feel or felt about birth, how they feel about breast feeding or bottle feeding... It's a bit taboo, and no one talks about the bad bits. Women IRL find it difficult to talk about being dissatisfied by their birth experience, and a lot of the time that's because they are told "But you and your baby came out ok, so it's all good".I think it's powerful to acknowedledge that this is not always the case- while the safety and well being of mum and bubs is optimum, it's also ok to feel dissapointed or sad by the way things went, if that's how you feel. And while it is difficult for women to get that acknwoledgment IRL, places like BB are very, very important.

I dunno...maybe it's a chick thing? :lol: ;)

Well said Lori I agree:clap:

I think it curious that you want this convo to end Billy Ocean! What are you fearing in this debate - this sharing of opinions that thus far largely has been respectful? Oh no no end yet my friend! :hug:

I hear your observations Slyder & I think I understand what you are saying...

Am I right to believe that you feel that people stating their "birthing or parenting acheivements in signatures could be seen as gloating?
That perhaps the way women see their birth as bad or good could add to the feeling of not meeting the mark - so to speak?

I can see how signatures could be perceived as gloating - however I can also see how the pride & acheivement of an empowered birth is just as likely to be the reason... Or perhaps affording women the opportunity to state their personal views - choices in birth and parenting?

I know it's not about gloating for most women in here. I know for every woman who chooses to birth in water there is another person outraged at her "dangerous" choice. Or "silly attitude". I have been called that & much worse! For every woman who sees it important to honour birthin a sacred manner there is another who will whisper about wierdness and bizarre ritual... I had a blessingway for a local woman at my house. Quickly the news spread of witchcraft & bizarre rituals... Which of course in a way it is witch craft - in that it is a way to honour the natural cycles and sacredness of birth! But it highlighted to me just how out of touch our society is! To me and many women it is natural to honour birth - but trust me Slyder to stand up and honour birth and it's rites is to be ridiculed, laughed at and scoffed at... :cry: It's sad to me.

I have been called "perverse" for including my children in the births of their siblings - I really do get being on the outside. For out there in the real world it is normal to have an epidural/surgical birth & bottle feed. It is "normal" to just want whatever is deemed "best" by the system. Here at BB we have a middle ground. A place that asks... Is it really necessary? Is it really factual? How do YOU the consumer feel? What do YOU the consumer want? What is the most healthful? What is safer: etc etc.

So, I get that those that choose a more medical birth "feel" unsupported. At least I hear that they do. However, gently and with complete kindness I hit that back... That a perception is the responsiblity of the perceiver. I will support all birth choices. But I will not be silent about the importance of knowledge, education and the honouring of the sacred rite of birth! I also will not say that breast is an option... Breast is best. I know, understand, empathise and support that some women find Breastfeeding difficult or are unable to, or make a choice not to. But we cannot ask that we don't talk about the goodness, the "bestness" of it!

It would be like saying: "some choose to smoke cigarettes so we shouldn't talk about the affect of passive smoke on their kids, the hightened risk of SIDS, of cancer, of heart disease. We should because it's a fact. Just like its a fact that in the absence of fetal distress or maternal dis ease a natural birth is best for baby & mother almost always.

That is not berating those that choose to c/section or milk substitute feed. It's stating a fact.

I think we need to move enough from our body of pain that we can see that when we are offended by the choices of others, by the opinions of others (especially when supported by strong evidence) then we have a wound that we need to attend to.

We all have them. I have them. We all have them. They are different for us all. But we cannot not be proud of our acheivements, seek to stretch others and ourselves, educate, inform and support without standing strong in our ideals.

If a woman reads and informs herself that natural birth is statisitcally healthier for her & her child & her birth results in surgery... She needs to work through that. She cannot go back & shoot the messenger that helped in her education! Well of course she can - but is that fair?

It's like knowing it's healthier to not smoke, learning about the risks and the diseases it can promote. Then smoking and blaming the education for your disappointment. (not quite the same I know as some c/sections are absolutley necessary unlike smoking...)

But do you get my drift?

Like Schmick I hold similar values, but will never tire of discussing them, learning from others, hearing stories and perspectives & being stretched.

We cannot & should not (I hope Kelly at least... :redface:) become a community that we pussy foot around our ideals so that those who are wounded don't get annoyed. Because that would prevent learning and growth for all of us. For the wounded one, for the community, for the whole.

We need to move far enough away from the knee jerk reaction that when we are hurt it's someone elses fault. When we feel guilt or blame or fear then we seek to find a culprit.

I had a c/section that I had to heal from. The fact it was a medical necessity didn't take the pain of the lack of birthing (as I saw it for me) away. I had to work through it. My responsibility. I knew, know and believe that at any time I could & did reach out to the women in my community both where I live, distant friends and here on line. To rehash, understand and seek healing.
I have never once felt that I would not be welcomed & loved & supported.

I hear that some people don't feel like that. But I wonder if that is about them & their wound & pain. Or is it that we as a site are not supportive? I know that as part of the Moderation team - & a passionate part! That we as a team work hard to provide a loving & supportive environment.

So, I hope I have made sense - & again Slyder I appreciate deeply your contribution to this thread & your eloquent & respectful posts... :hug:

I think the value of this site is that the members who remain are ok with being a community where we all do things differnetly from each other according to our own values. I remember joining a forum from which I was subsequently banned because I wasn't approaching birth the 'right' way - I couldn't just want to homebirth, I had to also believe in freebirthing and think that ALL medicos are evil and there was no tolerating anything that even smelled like a middle ground. THAT'S a clique. On here I am still in the minority and it's acceptable, I'm not banned from posting - I homebirthed, I am still breastfeeding my 3.5 yo, I practice elimination communication AND use flannel flat nappies (ay!)...whilst these things may align with BB values, they don't align with the practices of a lot of BB members, and even less so with the IRL society I live in, like Schmickers pointed out. So if I have anything in my signature alluding to how I parent, it's not as a marker of an exclusive and privileged club I'm in, it's to just be me. Cos just to be me is going against the grain and attracting far more judgment, discussion (but what others say about me behind my back is none of my business :p) and defensiveness (ironically) than those who choose more 'mainstream' methods of birth and parenting.
But, really, I wasn't being facetious when I said it was good for the OP's article's author that she's accepting and celebrating of her choices. She made her choices independent of anyone else's value system. Similarly, I don't view the worth of my own choices and their outcomes at the expense of someone else's experience (eg. I don't say 'well at least mine was better than so-and-so'...what a waste of energy!), they are just my choices and I know exactly why I've made them, so I feel no need to justify myself to others. On BB I can just get on with the business of sharing what I do, and discussing things with people, challenging myself and learning how other people make choices and follow their growth - boy have I seen people come out of their 'compliant' shells and turn into very decisive, empowered chickies on BB!!

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boy have I seen people come out of their 'compliant' shells and turn into very decisive, empowered chickies on BB!!

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Oh yeah baby :dance: That's me, right there... ;)

:clap: Inanna, and LoriRae

I totally get that there is a need to support all experiences and choices. Anything else and I wouldn't be here. But I also believe that we (as individuals and as an on-line community) cannot shy away from stating our ideals, goals and beliefs for fear of upsetting someone who doesn't share them.
I know that's not exactly what is being said here... but how far away is it? if I'm left feeling like I can't talk about my VBAC or BFing experiences because someone else didn't have them, and may feel left out, or 'not part of the club'? Come on. It's all about the different experiences that we all go through..that's the point...I was just the other day espousing the brilliance of BB to my sister...telling her that with so many members there is always someone who has been there done that..it's invaluable. Doesn't matter whether it's VB or Cs or BF or FF...
I LOVE hearing different experiences & opinions, whether I agree or not. It was a search for information that brought me here, those different opinions & experiences are what makes BB so great for me.
And in my (relatively short) time on BB I have so rarely seen posts which are unsupportive - a bit of squabble here & there but when it comes to 'the big stuff' there is such wonderful support ;) I have never seen anyone criticised for choosing the birth that is right for them, or feeding their child in a way that works for them ...

so back to the OP... I love that there is an article out there giving an account of a CS which is positive, it's another facet of the overall picture to look at. I have heard members say before that they wished they had had a bit more positivity before their birth experience; being that when they ended up in theatre, it was all pretty scary. It's good I think to know that it's not all necessarily bad - that's part of a balanced picture.

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Slyder, while i do see what you are saying- see my sig for evidence of that- I just have to put this out there (I was going to let it END, but it's been bugging me, ok?)

What you are referring to in the last paragraph there, the analysis (over analyisis, if you will) of ourselves, and the exploration of the deeper issues, is one of the things I love about BB. Because how often can we do that, IRL? So often IRL, issues that women have are swept under the carpet- how they feel or felt about birth, how they feel about breast feeding or bottle feeding... It's a bit taboo, and no one talks about the bad bits. Women IRL find it difficult to talk about being dissatisfied by their birth experience, and a lot of the time that's because they are told "But you and your baby came out ok, so it's all good".I think it's powerful to acknowedledge that this is not always the case- while the safety and well being of mum and bubs is optimum, it's also ok to feel dissapointed or sad by the way things went, if that's how you feel. And while it is difficult for women to get that acknwoledgment IRL, places like BB are very, very important.

I dunno...maybe it's a chick thing? :lol: ;)

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Absolutely, absolutely. I totally agree, and that's why I like it here because it's an enlightened place with heaps of intelligent peoples. But it's like strawberries: they're awesome too, but go overboard on them and it can do bad things! :lol:

About the 'woman' thing - yes we're wired this way. If you haven't read men are from mars, women are from venus, it's a brilliant explanation of why women are why they are and men too, how their hormones work and cope with life as it is... I appreciate both genders so much more now. A great read!

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On BB I can just get on with the business of sharing what I do, and discussing things with people, challenging myself and learning how other people make choices and follow their growth - boy have I seen people come out of their 'compliant' shells and turn into very decisive, empowered chickies on BB!!

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How true is that. It's something I love so very much, seeing the journeys, seeing the learning and development and people being ecstatic about their experiences. It's beautiful and heartwarming to see, and with BB having been around for 7 years now, there have been many of them. The emails and messages I get so often from members thanking me profusely for providing a place for them to find this information and having the best experience of their life - thats so awesome. Similarly I get the same about parenting, they thank me for providing information to enable them to parent they way they instinctively knew, but felt alienated by everyone around them in their family/community. Birthing and parenting with confidence - who wouldn't want that - and it's my dream for everyone.

At the end of the day, most of us would like to ideally have a normal, natural experience of birth. There are plenty of pregnancy and birth forums out there. But the difference is that I want our members to recognise that if they truly want to have this experience, then you need to do your research and set yourself up for that. This means recognising that being in a private hospital provides the worst setting for that. Having a doula or independent midwife greatly increases your chances of it. A homebirth for a healthy woman will result in the least interventions. If you don't actively seek the appropriate books to read and right birth education. If you accept an unnecessary induction, you're not just starting off labour as it would normally, just earlier, you're putting a huge chance of c/s in the mix. If you leave yourself up to the hands of the doctor, or the status quo, and do not bother with any of these things, then you'll simply end up part of the status quo.

If there weren't sites like BB around to offer these things (I don't think any of the mainstream ones are as active about this as BB), then do we all keep having our inductions and wondering why the hell we ended up with a c/s? Do we keep following doctors orders like a good little girl? Or do we tell them it's our body, we respect their education but I am making my own informed decisions thanks. Part of that is exploring the possibility of c/s and what your preferences are. I know in the BB birth plan template it's included in there.

If you really want it, to give yourself the very best chance (because our c/s rate is over double the rate it should be meaning yes, MANY women are having unnecessary c/s), you have to get informed, educated and empowered and find the most woman friendly carers you can get your hands on - and there are very few Obs (there are some yes) who follow woman friendly recommendations... a good example of this is that despite many, many studies concluding that delayed cord clamping should be implemented as standard practice, a survey was sent around to Obs asking if they have done it and if so why/why not. Around 60% said no due to clinical implementation difficulties. Seriously????? What a joke. I posted the article on my FB and I am pretty sure here... but if they are using things like this as an excuse, as well as such hard lined approaches on VBAC, they are choosing how successful you will be, not YOU.

How much do you really want it? Only you can decide and your journey will unfold accordingly. For many, it takes an undesirable first birth for them to realise they actually do want to do it another way. We're all at different parts along our journey and for some the time is now, some it will be a year or two or more... these things take time to uncover and understand how it's effected us and what we want to do with it.

Inanna, my comment about the sigs stands (in that it makes little cliques), but at the same time there is nothing at all wrong with being proud of your choices and letting people know how you see things. So I dunno, I'm a bit torn on this one. But I don't really have a huge opinion on it, and certainly don't want to start another Sig Wars Mach Two thread, like the one from last year that was pointed out to me last night.

I can't really elaborate any further on what I've already written, otherwise I'll just be repeating myself. I think as long as people know that the information is here, they can seek it out. When all is sdaid and done, BB is a micro-world, and there will always be divisions and factions just like there is on planet Earth. It's human nature. We've all just got to be happy with how we roll based on access to good information and discussion and not feel the need to influence the decisions of others unless asked.

I'll shut up now - I've derailed SB's thread far enough!

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I think the 'problem' on BB, and indeed on other forums (fora, whatever) is the situation whereby members submit to what I would term experience grading, and a willingness to self chastise; I've commented on this before. Every time anyone adds to/sympathises with a thread where a member is running themselves down because they had a c/s, a failed VBAC, a hard vag birth, problems with b/f etc etc, they are compounding the problem. This creates an underlying culture where unwarranted self criticism and unnecessary judgment is validated and even encouraged.

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This is a very insightful comment, and one I have to agree with in part. I am aware of those threads that seem to enable the OP, rather than helping them work through a deeper issue. I actually posted something in the emotional growth section on "the search for validation". I also know of other members who try and prevent it from happening (such as "no more bad mother threads").

This process of validating our own experiences through sharing is something women tend to do more (probably because we talk more in general lol) but it happens everywhere, including IRL. I just think we can be more open on BB than in IRL, and there is a community of people talking all about their parenting experience, so guess what gets a lot of air time? Bfeeding, birth, parenting, etc etc etc. I think everytime we discuss something personal with another person we are in part validating our experience...its the way identities and experiences are forged and created...by identifying how our own experiences are unique.

I think the aim of any discussion should be to create some self criticism, rather than just unconditional validation - I think that is the issue on many threads. The aim should be to always gain a balanced viewpoint. Does conversation/discussion create unnecessary self criticism...well that depends on how you interpret that self analysis. Is it useful or destructive to you? If the latter, then you could a) stay away from the "triggers" and self preserve or b) work through why it is so offensive.

Anyhoo. This was a bit of a rant. I just wanted to say something about the signatures. I have homebirthing and cosleeping icons in my signature because I want to identify myself with Attachment Parenting or Gentle Parenting. I think it helps people interpret my posts. If they disagree entirely, maybe they can look at my signature and say..."oh she's one of 'those' hippy mums"...or maybe they don't care...who knows.

I am proud of my choices though. I worked damn hard to get where I am, through a lot of self analysis, criticism and soul searching. Just like all of us.

About the validating and self criticism... this is what differentiation is all about, what I posted a few back... if you want to make progress you have to hold onto yourself and realise that it's you who needs to validate yourself, to break the cycle of needing others approval or acceptance in anything in life. That's not a happy way to live, based on what others 'give' you emotionally... but what is a happy way is what you give yourself and improving your own quality of life for yourself. Self-confrontation is great for personal growth. BK says that so many people complain that their partner/mother etc attacks them, but its actually a gift. It's an insight into the way we work and what we're doing/creating - and we can do so much with that.

FWIW, Kelly, I came back in here to see what had upset a close friend of mine. I think you'll find if you look into your stats, that I haven't been on here for quite some time.

ps. feel FREE to take me off the site now after my comment. I couldn't think of a worse place to be. Thanks very much for making so many of us feel like crap.