Why all the opinions on c-sections?

[Inanna]

I don't believe that's what these women are saying Catherine. What I have heard them say is that they are dissatisfied with the experience. Of course we all want a healthy live child. What I am hearing these women say is that they believe they could have had that vaginally. They feel that they were not making an informed decision.

Bec, I think you are absolutely correct. As a society we are not taking responsibility for our health (that is not a blaming statement). We need to be fully informed. Not just believe what one specialist says. We need to find out the info. WE need to investigate. WE need to ask copious amounts of questions. Any specialist worth their salt will applaud that. Will welcome that.
Women can have empowering c/sections too. It's about informed and evidence based decisions... If after knowing the risks and benefits of any intervention you choose it. YOu are making an informed choice. This is important.

I am of the belief that it is important how a baby is born into the world. It's important that the Mama feels supported, heard and empowered. This can only happen when women take responsibility for their experiences and deceisions.

For me, I have experienced 5 different births. Very different. But I felt incredibly strong and powerful because I was informed. I didn't feel like a victim of the system. I felt like I was a powerful woman birthing my baby. Now, had I had a c/section I would probably feel the same because I would be informed.

Some women haven't known the importance of that. And I thankyou frome the bottom of my heart for having the courage and the generosity of sharing that.

We need to be obsessed with figures. WE need to be obsessed...

[Tobily]

What i can't understand is, why are people so obssessed with the figures? At the end of the day isn't what every mother wants, a healthy child despite which way it was born into the world? And regardless how the mother births or chooses to birth her child, shouldn't she be supported? Isn't that the right of freedom? Isn't that what Australia is renowned for? Isn't that what this very website is for - so we as women can choose how we wish to birth in whatever way that may be?

Absolutely Catherine - everyone wants a healthy mother and baby as the outcome.

But being treated respectfully and having a positive birth, and also getting the outcome of a healthy baby, are NOT mutually exclusive. Women can and SHOULD get both.

I have no problem with women exercising their right to make an informed choice and have a caesarean if that is what they want.

What I do have a problem with is being lied to, bullied, coerced and pretty much physically assaulted. Having my choices taken away, my wishes ignored, and my dignity as a human being completely disregarded.

That is effectively what happens to women who go into birth in hospital without doing research as I did. Hospitals are primarily looking out for their own best interests first, and the emotional wellbeing of the women in their care is pretty low on their list of priorities unfortunately.

[Berry]

Berry are you saying that for yourself or in general ? if you are saying for yourself then thats fine I dont know your circumstances but if you are saying for it in general then I have to correct you

A bit of both - ie having had a previous caesarian, a VBAC poses a 1% chance of the previous scar rupturing - with the likely outcome if I were unlucky enough to fall into that 1% being loss of baby and need for a hysterectomy. So a repeat caesarian is the best option for getting baby out safely. Admittedly the chance of the scar rupturing is unlikely and if I really wanted to birth naturally that very slight risk wouldn't deter me in itself.

However, when I take into account my very long labour and natural birth experience, which was traumatic, and baby's shoulder was caught on the way out and I almost needed an emergency c-section after all the tiring process and pain, then I would prefer to have a half hour c-section delivery this time on a planned day, knowing my kids are planned to be with grandparents that day and everything is effortlessly organised.

[trinnie]

Becmc, I feel the same, I don't think I will ever get over it. Becmc, Flea, Emma - it makes feel better that there are other women who feel that their c/s was unnecessary - I have spent a huge amount of time feeling so alone!

In some ways I do feel empowered and I will NEVER let this happen again! Next time I will be informed and more willing to stand up to any Dr. But with my first birth this was hard because I was naive and being rung-up by your OB who asks you whether you bags are packed, tells you to eat dinner and then get to the hospital for transfusions - well I didn't have much time to check out medical sources for alternate views and I stupidly and naively trusted him. It wasn't until I was admitted, had needles and drips in my arms that he told me he wouldn't treat me in I didn't agree to the c/s!!! Because of my medical condtion an epidural was not safe!!!! In fact the c/s probably but me at more risk but the dr thought that could control that risk better in surgery! In fact, nothing ever went wrong and their back up plan for surgery was simply not needed AT ALL!!! In fact the chances of anything going wrong was so so small!!! I wish I had been told!!!

It is unfair.

It is about choice and being properly informed!

[LG]

I won't repeat all the opinions that i agree with, but basically the rate of c/s in Aust is appaulling and shameful I believe. I absolutely agree that c/s are necessary in some cases, but it is not most cases.

What i actually believe is that woman fear labour and birth and this is generally because of the way birth has been medicalised in our society. We hear horror birth stories from friends and relatives who birthed in very traumatic circumstances. In a way, i think generally girls and women are taught that birth is painful and traumatic. Birth doesn't have to be this way. It can be gentle and escatic, and for me it was the MOST amazing experience of my life, and i can't describe it in words. The hormones you experience after a natural, gentle birth are unbelievable! Its just incredible how a womans body can feel... Yes it was painful, but it wasn't a bad experience. And i wish that every woman and baby could experience a wonderful birth.

I honestly believe that if women had more confidence in their own bodies to birth, our c/s rate would be faaaaar lower. We as a society put so much faith and trust in doctors (who are currently an integral part of a woman's birthing process?) that we sometimes fail to realise that WE women are the experts on our bodies. It's awful to consider, but the facts are that doctors are people doing a job, and they don't necessarily want to be working all the time. So they can encourrage c/s to fit around their lives, they also then have a greater role in birth and therefore more control, not to mention the extra costs involved in c/s's.

I am not against c/s's. I am against our societies fear of birth. The truth is that in most cases, there are more risks (physical and psychological long term) during a c/s compared to a natural birth.

Of course there are cases when a c/s has to be performed to save mum and/or baby, and of course evey woman has the right to make her choice on how to birth. All i say, is let it be an educated and informed decision, not one based on fear and insecurities.

[trinnie]

Having my choices taken away, my wishes ignored, and my dignity as a human being completely disregarded.

That is effectively what happens to women who go into birth in hospital without doing research as I did. Hospitals are primarily looking out for their own best interests first, and the emotional wellbeing of the women in their care is pretty low on their list of priorities unfortunately.

Oh Flea - you are so like me!!

Yes, ladies the emotional wellbeing of the women in their care is pretty low on their list of priorities. I BEGGED the maternity unit manager, herself a midwife, to refer me to a counsellor so I could talk about what had happened - she REFUSED and point blank told me that there was no-one she could refer me to. Another midwife at the hospital had told me to talk to the manager because she could she how badly I was struggling. Fat lot of use that did me - they simply do not care and I did told her I did not feel comfortable asking my OB - especially because he refuse to treat me as I wanted to be treated!!!

[trinnie]

The hormones you experience after a natural, gentle birth are unbelievable! Its just incredible how a womans body can feel... Yes it was painful, but it wasn't a bad experience. And i wish that every woman and baby could experience a wonderful birth.

LG - I had no fear of birth - I knew about the extraordinary capacity that our bodies have to look after ourselves, I had been through a miscarriage that progressed very much like a labour and had experience the hormones and mind altered state as the body helps you cope with the pain! That is probably one of the reasons I was so upset that my OB denied me any form of birth experience - I had some experience - I knew I could labour to lose a baby - I wanted the pain and saw it as part of coming to terms with losing my first.

I probably should have run away when at one of my antenatal appointments my Obs reaction to my wanting a natural birth with no pain relief or epidural was "Well, if you need it, I am going to tell you you need it and that will be it!"

Yes, birth has been highly medicalised. Thank goodness for BellyBelly trying to break this down and educate us so that we can make informed choices!

[anney]

I absolutely agree that the c/s rate in Australia is too high and disagree with the "medicalisation" of birthing. For that reason I chose a public hospital midwife care to birth our baby.
During labour, I felt my choices were respected and I was always listened to. I ended up with an emergency c/section under a GA as DD went into serious distress (I had been told from early on that she had some symptoms of distress that they were monitoring but they let me try to birth vaginally as long as they safely could). I have had no real emotional issues around my c/section as I know in my heart, it was completely necessary. I do have an issue around, how you can give informed consent to any type of proceure when you are in serious pain and been sucking on gas so you can't even think anyway (plus my DH had chosen that moment to go out and have a cigarette!).
I want to send big hugs to trinnie, becmc and flea for the awful experiences you have had. If you feel you need help dealing with this, did you know that you can get some sessions with a psychologist funded via Medicare now. I have recently started going, about a different issue and I think it could help you alot.

[trinnie]

Thanks for the hugs Anney. I am glad to hear that your c/section under a GA was necessary. I struggle because mine wasn't. I think a properly thought out birth plan can overcome some of the informed consent issues in an emergency. I think drs should talk about what might happen in an emergency, but agree that this is hard if you have never had a baby before and no-one can ever predict what is going to happen and you simply do not know how you are going to feel. My birth plan was very brief just simply asking to keep me informed so that I could make the decisions - this did not happen! It was ignored.

Yes, I am aware that phychologist sessions are now Medicare funded. My GP wasn't very sympathetic when I said I hated the c/s experience because she is of the view that it is the outcome that is important having had 2 elective scheduled c-sections herself and I haven't been back to ask for a referral.

I think being here is helping and I hope that by telling my story that the belief that most c-sections are for the best can be exploded!

[Aranah]

What is considered a good reason for an elective c-section?

I never thought I'd choose one, but if I was to have another baby I would be very scared to go through natural labour again, even though I've done so three times.

My last baby had shoulder dystocia, where his shoulders lodged after his head was out and it was a medical emergency and they basically had to get their hands up there and rip him out as his heartrate had disappeared. If that didnt' work, they would have had to push him back in and perfrom an emergency c-section I was told. I doubt he would have survived. He had to be resussitated as it was.

He was much larger than my other two babies and if I was to have another that was showing signs of being so large, I would consider a c-section this time around. I have a massive fear of surgery due to a past lapraotomy gone wrong and am allergic to most painkillers, but I have a bigger fear of losing a child.

It is not an experience I would wish on anyone, it was horrible to not have birthed a screarming pink baby. I am lucky and blessed he survived with little effects, but I don't know if I would take that risk again.

I have a new understanding of women that elect a c-section, it definatley isn't always black and white, and I really think it's choosing the harder option, having had surgery myself. The pain of childbirth is unbearable at times (oww especially with a big posterior baby and only gas) but from experience, my lapratomy was far more painful and I can't imagine looking after a baby after surgery like that. I love being able to walk around and care for my baby after birth, this is a big reason why also despite having a horrid painful labour this time around, I didn't get an epidural and have never had one, it's the one reason I don't as I love just being able to get up afterward.

So for me, if I were to have another large baby and I chose a c-section because of the shoulder dystocia risk, I would be choosing the much less desirable, more painful and very scary option. But the fear of losing my baby would outweigh this.

[CatherineL]

But why should you be dissatisfied with the rate... These women are choosing this! Again freedom of choice! And who are you guys to say that it was an unnecessary c section? So many of you are hypocritical because you believe we should have the option to birth however we like... like water births, homebirths etc. And these have high risks also!

I was ganged up on the other day telling me how bad c/s was and basically I got the impression that I would be failing by have a c/s. If I choose to have a c section - it will be my own choice and no body else will influence that. I refuse to let ANYONE make me feel bad for my choices, that I am entitled to make regardless whether it be necessary or a planned c section.

Women are judging other women! What happens if a woman read this thread just on the side, and her due date came and it turned out she needed a c section - from half of the things some of you have written, she would possibly feel guilty, ashamed and as though she has failed.

[BellyBelly]

anney - that is something I struggle to understand - because I too had an outcome I wouldnt have chosen but I know its what I had to do at the time, and I am okay with it. I have no hang-ups and I never get angry when someone tells me about risks or whatever about what I had to have.

Maybe people do have doubts or feel that they could have gone longer without intervention, we do know that the WHO says 15% of c/s are medically justified, yet many private hospitals are reaching that 50%+ mark and I do not believe that women are choosing that many c/s.

I also know that midwives tell me that of those coming in for an inductions for their first births, 50-75% end up with c/s... and there starts your increased futrue c/s rates, as they have c/s next time and so on - failed inductions are not nice so people don't like to go through that again. So psychological stuff can also be caused by the medical stuff, women are led to believe things like c/s was required when it wasn't. Even a head Ob in a large maternity hospital admitted to having to give a justified reason for c/s. I have also been in a c/s where I honestly believe a couple were lied to about why it was needed. I spoke to many, many midwives as it was playing with my head, and many of them said they would put their money on it, that it wasn't the reason given. Yet it's not easy to tell anyone that, and people need to trust their carers. Catch 22.

If you don't want a c/s, you really have to put yourself in the care of someone who gives you the least chance at c/s. Only about 3 of my clients have had and emergency c/s, one under g/a.

[Rouge]

I think it really is perspective Catherine, I would never judge a woman for choosing a c/s. And I doubt many people would. I think the problem is not all women are choosing this. I know I didn't choose it. And I got pressured into a second c/s and had I not had the support of friends and family I may have easily given in. Where was my choice?

I do not think that the only way to birth a baby is vaginally. Nor am I a specifically a homebirth/waterbirth advocate I think the choice should be there but its certainly not the only way.

Its interesting how you say that women are made to feel like failures by others who are opting to inform others or be more informed, when in my experience I was told my body failed by those in my first birth and by my 1st Ob with Seth. I haven't seen one person here say that those who choose c/s are failures.

*hugs*
Cailin

[BellyBelly]

Catherine, can you quote the risks for those things? I would like evidence because I don't think you would find any. The stats I have seen all say that the risk of death home vs hospital is the same. Babies and mothers die from malpractice, errors and complications in hospitals, and yes at home too. But all risks weighed up, it's close to exactly the same.

I don't understand where your anger has come from, I don't feel anyone has ganged up on anyone and unless it's because you are feeling frightened and want a c/s, it's not fair to attack others who had a bad experience and are suggesting it's not a good idea. All our experiences have feelings attached and just because your way is not the way they like, it doesn't need to be attacked. Perhaps you need to talk this issue through with your carer. If you come out and tell us that is your choice and that is what you want, power to you. We will not try and change your mind.

It is something we are all priviledged to have here - the wisdom of many other mothers who have been there before. Read their stories, learn from them, do your own research and make your own mind up.

[Inanna]

I think Catherine that many women in this thread are saying that they didn't make an informed choice. I don't understand how that makes you feel "ganged up on".

I think many people in all aspects of health care don't make informed decisions. That's not a blame thing it's a statement that is based on my experience in that system. I certainly think it's true of the birthing system.

It's wonderful that we can all speak about our differnet and varied experiences in a safe place. This is the venue for that.

Some of the women are stating that they believe their c/sections were unnecessary and this has caused them pain... They are owning their experiences and not saying that yours is wrong.

I also don't believe there has been any judgement. Some challenge yes - and shouldn't we welcome challenge so we don't become robotic? Again, these women have clearly owned their experiences.

It has taken courage to say what they have and I applaud it.

I would be interested to know where you get your information that waterbirth and home birth is high risk.

[CatherineL]

Cailin, I think we would be being a little thick to say people have to openly come out and say - 'you’re a failure'...

I have met a few women that have told me they were guilty about a c/section but weren't necessarily unpleased with it if that makes sense? My SIL had a c/section and doesn't mention it to outsider because she feels ashamed and like she failed in some way. Something along the way has obviously planted this seed... why should she feel the need to hide it and why should she feel ashamed?

Cailin - Your choice was with you... it's your body, could you have not stood up for yourself if you so desperately knew you didn't want the c/section? I know Daniel would support me if I chose to say no. And if women are not choosing to have a c/section, what's been happening? Are they just butchered without consent? If so, why don't they take the mater further legally? I think AT THE TIME, they made the decision suitable for them. I would rather listen to the advice of my Ob who has a degree, and then make an informed decision from there and like Kelly always says, you have to stick to your decisions - so if I go into labour with my birth plan I am going to do whatever means necessary to follow it and if doesn't work out, well I’ve tried my best

Obviously I don't have the birth experience - but I have a brain and I disagree with c sections being so controversial.. It's a woman's choice. I don't give a crap about how high the figures are for c sections - woman are choosing this and who are we to judge.

Big thumbs up for Rae and her attitude after her second c section!!!

[Inanna]

But why are they choosing it Catherine?

[BellyBelly]

No I don't agree that women are choosing those c/s Catherine. I have seen many births and I hear about them, women are trying to avoid inductions and c/s all the time, but I have seen the strongest women buckle when they have obs or midwives tell them that their baby might die - yes they say this in labour contrary to certain situations. One woman was having an induction and they booked her in after the long weekend. Once she was in for it, they pressured her to have the drip, the baby might die, we don'tunderstand this condition yada yada... well if they were so concerned why did they wait over the long weekend? They are not all as innocent as you think and some Obs even admit that other Obs do certain things. WOmen being booked in for c/s with low lying placenta at 13 weeks! Would you argue with your degree laden Ob? No, of course he knows better. But we know, a uterus does most of its growing in the bottom segment late in pregnancy... so it was completely unjustified.

You really need to work or see the industry in action for yourself... it is an eye-opener and I had no idea until I became a doula.

I am confident your opinion will change after labour. Not to be like those who don't like c/s but you can't look at it and judge without having been in it. And I am in it 2-3 times a month.