Channel 7's 'Sunday Night' - To Snip or Not to Snip?

[Phteven]

RhiChiChi, try going to Science news and science jobs from New Scientist - New Scientist and doing a search. They have up to date research and no agenda to push.
If you use google just keep in mind that a lot of the websites are written by people who feel passionately about the topic to go to the effort of starting a website about it and the information on those sites tends to be biased.

[Ahurani]

I agree with Leasha

Why cut it off when its obviously meant to be there.

I watched it in horror when the man did the procedure. But hey each to their own right.

[blessedatlast]

I simply posted out of curiosity.. I was interested as it seems to change from generation to generation.. As I said most men of my age aren't circumcised (I am 28)but I am aware it was common practice in my parents generation (Late 40's to 50's) I never realised it would become such a heated debate.. Also I have not come across a thread on this subject before

Also Det i do have a question.. Hope I am not being rude, but did you have to pay for it, The doc that did my adult partners did babies aswell so if we had our son's done we would have gone to his private practice rather than ask the hospital to do it..

[rhyb]

I didnt get DS done as his father (my XP) was not and I couldnt bring myself to do it as I saw no reason. Now Im having problems with DP as Im pregnant again and if hes a boy he wants to have our son circumsised cz he is. My arguement is I wouldnt want DS to feel different and not only that I still see no point for me to have that done to my son.

[Schmickers]

Now Im having problems with DP as Im pregnant again and if hes a boy he wants to have our son circumsised cz he is.

I've heard a few men say this. Something to consider is, while he may look like his dad, he probably won't look like most of his friends, as circumcision is becoming quite rare these days.

[Just Me]

I've heard a few men say this. Something to consider is, while he may look like his dad, he probably won't look like most of his friends, as circumcision is becoming quite rare these days.

Actually where I live and the circles I mix, this is not true. In my mothers' group, 2 of the 6 boys are uncircumcised (and they are brothers), my nephews are all circumcised, as are most of my friends little boys (with the exception of one). I know more boys who are circumcised than uncircumcised. i will point out that I am a Christian but my non-religious friends have chosen to circumcise their sons just as much as my Christian friends.

I know which friends have circumcised their sons, but I have never really discussed it with them. It is kind of a personal issue. But since this is the site for personal issues and TMI . . . I feel comfortable talking about it here . . .

We were so torn making this decision when we found out we were having a boy. All the males in my family are circumcised and this did not make it an easy decision for us. I was torn between the possibility of causing my son a great deal of pain, family 'tradition', social acceptance (I was more concerned about backlash for having my DS circumcised, I hadn't realised how common it was in Townsville) and then the medical research.

My DH and I talked for many hours about what we thought and the evidence doesn't really pull us hugely either way. In the end we made the decision because both my DH and my Dad were circumcised as older males due to medical issues. We decided that as a preventative thing it really was the way to go for us. I'm sorry if this offends some people, we really do love our DS and want the best for him. We made the decision with his best interests at heart.

On the day of the circumcision, I felt ill about it. But in the end, it really was fine. DS cried once while the procedure was being done and it was all over in 10 mins. I really was amazed how well it went.

That is our story anyway. I don't know if it helps anything really but I know that we had a lot of turmoil about whether or not to do it. In the end, we made a decision that we have peace with. I don't think it is for everyone and everyone's circumstances and experiences are different. Our experience led us to believe that this was the right decision for us, but it doesn't mean that it will be right for everyone.

In response to the whole debate on SN - I was very dissappointed with the whole show. I don't like that they said circumcision should be made 'mandatory' and extreme opinions on things always concerns me no end. I don't feel like either side presented an argument worth listening to . . . just my opinion

ETA: Kitten - with regards to your post about HIV and STIs - there is some evidence that it may decrease the risks in studies put forward by the World Heath Organisation but many of these relate to males in Africa and other countries where there are lots of sexual health issues and HIV is very common. I think the Australian gov't is only just starting to look at the issues in relation to us as a nation now. I would say it will be a couple of years till there is an answer either way . . . for the next 20 years anyway and then they will decide that circumcision is out again.

[Glamourcide]

I wonder if circumcision is becoming 'normal' again (as has been said before, it fell 'out of favour' for a few years and seems to be making a comeback) because of reasons like 'all the boys in our family are done'? (NOT saying at all that this is not a 'good reason' for doing so, at all - just thinking out loud, really.)

My friend has a little boy the same age as my DD, and she never even vaguely considered circumcision, it just wasn't an issue that she even thought of during her pregnancy - but her DS ended up circumcised because his grandfather (her partner's father) *insisted* it be done, 'because he's a Smith (not their real surname, but that's beside the point) and Smiths get the snip'. No other reason behind it, just that granddad is 'old-school' (eg thought my husband was a great bloke for ten years, then decided he was a thug when DH got a tattoo on his forearm, because 'only criminals have visible tatts', that kind of attitude) and insisted that no male relative of his would be getting around with hs foreskin left on (apparently it's 'unmanly' or some such...?) ...
My friend had no strong feelings on the matter and consented because she knew her partner would give her hell forever and a day if his father's wishes weren't followed to the letter (bear in mind my friend's partner is in his mid-20's and STILL lets his parents dictate to him like he's a 5-year-old - he didn't even move in with my friend until after their son was born because his mummy didn't want to let him go), I just thought it was a bit strange that granddad would care so much to insist, when it's not his child, kwim?

Have any other mums faced pressure from their family (particularly the older generation) to circumcise their boys, and how did they deal with that?

[Pretty Butterfly]

Townsvillegirl, I was thinking the same thing!!

Studies done in almost 3rd world conditions hardly sway me to believe that 60% of our men are going to be dieseased. Non circumsicion has been popular for many many years, and I haven't heard that we have an epidemic of virus filled men.

I dont see how a uncircumsised penis, washed everyday, is worse than some teen who may shower once a week, and is circumsiced. It's all relative to the individual.

I certainly wont be teaching my daughter that its "more dirty". She should play safe regardless, and not put her safety in someone elses hands...

[Phteven]

PB, one of the larger and more exhaustive studies was conducted in NZ which isn't exactly a a 3rd world nation. One of the governments currently reviewing its circ recommendations is the US, once again not a 3rd world nation.
The factors leading to increased transmission of disease have nothing to do with how often circed men clean their smegma out.
For me dismissing such a large body of evidence is kind of like saying that we don't need driver education or air bags because we have seat-belts.
As I said previously safe-sex education is a great idea however it has a history of failure.

[diva det]

lauren
smickers answered most of the questions
they gave him a chordal epi whilst he was under so he awoke in no pain at all
he was crying a little when he awoke as he was hungry and a boobie feed fixed that and he went to sleep
he awoke 30 mins later smiling and wanting to stand up and chat to everyone
his penis is covered with vaseline soaked gauze at the moment, so there is no stitches.
Every nappy change we just chuck some more vasline on to stop it sticking to the nappy

it was actaully hard to find someone to do this procedure. My OB ended up doing it so we had to do it the way that he does it and that is after they are 3 months old and under GA. This suited me as I did not want him to have this procedure without pain relief etc. and in a hospital setting.

HTH and feel free to ask any other questions

[lauren22]

oh my apologies i didnt see his post
thankyou as well
my my im lucky to have all these lovley people on BB answering all these questions

[mako]

Lauren I just want to let you know that we had to use betadine after each nappy change to help prevent infection after the proceedure. My DS was done when he was 5 weeks old in a private hospital with anasthetic. He was only away from us for 15 mins or so and when he came back to us he was awake and hungry which a BF quickly fixed No regrets here. Atleast he won't remember the pain of it unlike my nephew who was done at 6 years of age and DOES remember the pain.

[~Jo~]

Tired old debate...sigh...tired old sensationalist garbage on tv...i choose not to circumcise my daughters or my son.

Jo

[lauren22]

circumsise your daughter?
never heard of it.

[Bathsheba]

I believe that this piece of skin is there for a reason... so to date my sons are not cut. However my 5yo has a mild case of phimosis (tightening of the foreskin) so he periodically has it checked by a paed. We apply cortisone which helps to loosen it. If he needs to be cut for medical reasons then so be it. It won't mean that I will have my other son cut so that they are the same... I personally don't understand that.... but each to their own. One thing that confuses me is the remembrance of pain thing. I don't see why it is an issue. I remember the pain of having surgery to have my appendix out... and the burns I received as a child when an aerosol can exploded in a nearby fire: molten metal hit my hand... it ran down the inside of my palm and when i tried to wipe it off with my other hand my little finger also got burnt... my mother put my hands under cold water then ripped off the metal... it hurt. I remember it. But it doesn't bother me because I guess I acknowledge that it was an accident. Like the appendectomy... I had to have it done or else I would have died... so be it. No mental scars. So, I figure if my son (the one with phimosis) ever has to be cut I would hope that he would understand the pain in that light IYKWIM? I hope I don't upset anyone by giving this analogy. I know nobody likes to see their children in pain but sometimes it's just a fact of life. So basically, I am prepared to circumcise my son if and when he needs it... and hopefully the pain relief he will receive at the time will be adequate.

[Glamourcide]

So, as I said earlier, I don't have boys, but I do know that if I were to have a son, I would choose not to circumcise based on *potential* health benefits such as those presented on tonight's segment. Schmickers pretty much summed up my beliefs on the subject - that there are easier, I suppose I would say 'better' ways of preventing STD's - don't shag around and when you do, wear a condom. You're still going to get HIV whether you have a foreskin or not, if you're not practicing safe sex, kwim?

I also personally just don't buy into the 'looking like dad' notion - it just doesn't make any sense to me. No two sets of genitals are identical, and from my POV, most grown men have pubic hair whereas their little sons don't, so obviously Frankie Jnr's bits are going to look vastly different to Frankie Snr's even before the concept of foreskins are brought into the picture, kwim? My DD doesn't seem to be perturbed at all by the fact that mummy has a fairly decent-sized set of breasts and she doesn't, or that I have pubic hair and she doesn't... I just don't know why a parent would be concerned about little Timmy 'looking different down there' than his dad?
My father was 'snipped' as was the 'norm' 50 years ago, but insisted that my brother (who's 20) be 'left intact' and as far as I know, there has never been an issue about what each others' bits look like - a doodle's a doodle's a doodle, right?

I think for me personally, I would not 'mess with nature', so to speak, unless there was an existing medical condition (as in Bathsheba's son's case where there is an actual problem already that could make circumcision a necessity), rather than just the potential for a medical problem down the track (FWIW I have heard of those women with a family history of breast cancer undergoing mastectomies BEFORE being diagnosed and I personally can see why they're doing it, but would never do it myself), kwim?

Of course I respect the individual opinions and reasons of others when it comes to parenting choices, and circumcision is just another one of those choices we make as parents, doing what we think is best for our little ones based on our own history, beliefs, and research. I hope nobody takes my opinions as a judgement or an attack on their choices, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there seeing as I opened this big ol' can of worms

I am curious as to the religious/cultural aspect of circumcision - I know Judaism is the most 'famous' for having their boys 'get the snip', are there any other religions out there that encourage it? And, if I'm not out of line asking this, why? I have wondered a few times about what role circumcision plays in a religious setting, what the reasons for it are, kwim?

[Schmickers]

...but did you have to pay for it, The doc that did my adult partners did babies aswell so if we had our son's done we would have gone to his private practice rather than ask the hospital to do it..

There is a medicare rebate available for the anaesthetist, I believe, and there may be a rebate available for the circumcision itself, but if the procedure is being done for cosmetic or religious reasons, there will most likely be an out of pocket expense as well.

[Freya]

I watched this show out of interest to see how they would spin the story. I think it was all the same ol' fluff that gets bandied about everytime this subject is bought up. Nothing new from either side that I could see.

I will happily be honest and put my hand up for having circumsized my sons. I dont have any shame or fear related to that decision. My boys are happy, well adjusted kids and their penis' work like any other males.

I dont feel they are psychologically damaged by having been circumcised, they wont even remember the procedure or time afterwards. They were all done before 8wks of age which is the safest and physically easiest time to do so. All had the plastibell procedure under local anaesthetic. I actually watched Ds2 being done as I felt I could not be fully supportive of circumcision as an idea, or for my own boys, without being 100% informed on the procedure so when offered the choice to watch I did so (with great trepidation I assure you!).

It was interesting to say the least (I wont give details on what exactly happens) - from my POV Ripley cried from the injection and from being held down. I dont believe he felt any major pain and he was perfectly fine afterwards. I think it was more distressing for me that he was crying for a few minutes and that I could not be the one to hold him. Even with this knowledge, I still went on to have Ds3 done a few weeks ago because I believe still that it is the right choice for my boys.

I think circumcision is a fence sitting topic - there are no completely compelling reasons why it should or should not be done that encourages illegalisation or compulsory participation of it. I truly think its a personal choice and should stay that way. I dont care if people choose NOT to circumcise. I would not teach my children that those who are uncircumcised are any less of a man than they are/are dirty etc - their just different in a minor physical way.

I worry about how other boys, and eventually girls, will treat my boys because they ARE circumcised. I think the only fear of psychological harm my children could possibly have is from an encounter with a passionate anti-circ'er who will fill their head with nonsense about child abuse and what we did being psychologically harming.

If they themselves, without encouragement, tell me that they feel we made the wrong decision - then I will apologise but tell them that I made what I thought was the best decision for them at the time, which is what my role as a parent involves. I never intended to cause hurt or long term issues for them, I love them and all my parenting decisions stem from that love whether it correlates with the "norm" or not. This could apply to alot of controversial parenting choices in the long run so we are probably all in this situation at some point.

FWIW, my husband is uncircumcised. I made it known I was pro-circumcision but let him have the final say as he is the one with first hand penis knowledge. I had a stipulation that IF they ended up with any recurring issues ie UTI's, foreskin problems; that they would be circumcised while they were still young enough for us to make the choice for them. He decided to have them done because he can remember having foreskin issues as a kid and it being very painful/embarrassing for him. Not to mention the issues he has had as a grown man. He would rather they be circumcised to possibly prevent these issues as newborns rather than have to endure medical problems AND surgery as an older child/adult. He contemplated being done himself but decided against it as adult circumcision is extremely painful. So it was a fully informed decision - the Dr who performed it even gave us a pamphlet stating all the pro's and con's including statistical and medical info for BOTH sides.