to circumsize or not to circumsize?

Hi Cailin, I just got your email and replied there :)
In brief - I could have stayed, but I was on the phone and it was too quick - over by the time I was back in the room! I don't know if it was called a 'bell', it was a little ring that they applied under the foreskin that gently lifted it off over the course of two days. It was very clean and neat, and as I said, Max didn't seem to be in any distress at all after the initial checks - but then, he yells EVERY time someone takes his nappy off, so it might not even have been due to the circumcision, he could have just been yelling for the heck of it, my stubborn little man!!

Kerrie

Kerrie,

Thank you for that very interesting information. I appreciated reading it. I did not take any of what you said in any way judgemental.

Actually looking back on my thread my tail docking comment was a little off the cuff and I appolygise to any it may have offended.

We were half half about it and were leaning towards doing it when we found out we were having a boy, but when he was in my arms, there was no way I could do it. So Elijah isn't done even though daddy is - which was only due to an infection as a child when he went swimming in some lovely NSW water...

We discussed it with the paed at his 6 week check-up in case we changed our minds - he seemed a bit off that we were thinking about it and said that it's pretty much 50/50 with people doing it at present. He also gave me a referral for when he was 6 months to see a surgeon as he saw it as the only 'humane' way to do it, by G.A. (all his words not ours here). But we wont be doing it anyways.

I don't know much about the procedure of circumcision, but have read this thread with interest. If my bub turns out to be a boy, I'd like to be armed with all the info before DH & I make our decision.

We're well aware of both sides of the moral & ethical arguments, but what are the facts of the procedure itself?

How is it done?
At what age/point is best?
Do they use local or general anaesthetic?
Is it a cut & stitch procedure, or is it a plastic bell clippy thingo?
If it's the bell thingo, how does that work?
What is the recovery time for bubs?
Is it bandaged?
How do you look after him in those initial days while healing?

Cailin suggested I copy part of the email I sent her to here, as she felt others might be interested.

The pediatrician put a little ring under the foreskin that gently lifted the skin off after two days, it came away cleanly and there was very little blood. I'm sure if I asked I would have been able to stay, but I'd left him in the nursery for a blood check for jaundice and then answered a phone call, and by the time I walked back in it was already done! It only takes a few minutes - my information sheet from the pediatrician said an average of seven minutes, if it takes more than ten, the doctor is incompetent.

Max experienced very little discomfort, for which I was very relieved as I'm sure you can imagine! My husband was totally freaked at the thought of changing his nappy for the first few days afterwards, I understood this so changed his nappy for the first three days, but there really wasn't anything 'icky' about it. By the time I needed DH to do a change, it was totally healed with no scarring - just a little red around the tip, as the new skin adjusted to being on the outer. No scabbing, no mess.
The wound care is very basic and easy, just pop a bit of gauze lined with vaseline on top of the penis to stop it rubbing on the nappy for a week, and let it heal by itself!

Further to that, Fishchick, they use a local anaesthetic, and as far as what age is best, I guess that's debatable - it's traditional for Jewish boys to be done at eight days old, the reasons are anyone's guess! Personally I'm wondering if it might not be because at that young age, the baby's system is still awash with a strong healing influence related to the birth? An operation which would cause major discomfort for an adult really seemed to be of very little consequence to Max, so I'm figuring that the hormones which help babies recover quickly from a birth are still in force and cause a quick healing - mind you, that's just my personal theory.

Kerrie

Thanks for sharing again Kerrie, I had been told by a gf it was very humane so I'm glad to hear it hasn't changed. Yep I think the plastic thing is the bell from memory. Its confirmed to both Marc & I that we are in fact making the right decision. I'll talk to my Ob and see who he recommends, I'll also double up and call the hospital and see who goes there.

*hugs*
Cailin

in response to you questions fishchick here are some answers to which may help

my ds was done at 1 day old, it was a co-incidence atm the doc was in the hospital at that time and was willing to do it, i also felt better about having it done whilst we were still in.

my ds had the cut done, we could have had the bell done by a different doc but that meant going back to the hospital as an outpatient a week later and as i said earlier i just wanted to be in hospital at the time.

the only time ds cried was when the nappy was taken off and he had done quite a big meconium poo and it took a while to clean him up before the procedure was done - can't remember re anthestic, i think he did have a local but i am sorry i really can't remember.

ds was breastfeed straight after and settled - in fact he was more unsettled after his heel***** testing.

he was bandaged for 2 days and this was removed by the doc before we went home

care at home was for 1 week after each nappy change was to dab a bit of vaseline on some gauze and drape it over the penis before a new nappy was put on. there was no bleeding or complications whatsoever.

i thank everyone for their input on this discussion, to tell you the truth i was a bit hesitant about posting earlier as i feel alot of people do judge you if you circumsize your son but it was our decision and i am glad we made it. i did find a couple of the midwives at the hospital were not as "chatty" to me when they came in the first 24hrs every 15mins for observation of my ds after the "op" which was quite hurtful at the time.

as for my ds - well he has started asking me probably about 12mths ago why his "doodle" looked different to one of his buddies, i just said to him that everyone is different in lots of different ways and since that time he has accepted it as out of our circle of friends he has realised that about 1/2 the boys look like him and dad and the other 1/2 look different.

anyway thanks again to everyone for not being judgemental on parents like us that choose to circumsize our sons for various and different reasons.

My four boys have not been done as I couldn't bring myself to do it...they range in age from 11 to 3 and so far I have absolutely no regrets..

Having said that i am all for whatever we decide to do as parents, wheter it be for religious reasons or others..


Jan xx

my son was a general ana. he was just under 6 months when he was done due to recurrent uti's. Here is what happened (this is posted in another forum so I have just copied and pasted it here). He had the plastibell...

Well, our day was pretty full on. Got up and made sure DS was fed by 7:30am. Tried to feed him some boiled water at 9:15am but he just screwed his face up at me and refused to drink it - don't blame him really.

Left for the hospital at 10:30am. Admission was for midday (we live a fair distance from the hospital). I didn't think DS would cope very well without a feed for so long but he did amazingly well. Was admitted at midday and told we were second in line as they do the youngest first and there was a baby who was younger then DS so that baby would be going first. So they told us we were looking at about 2 - 2:30pm for the procedure. We got a private room for the day in the women's unit and all the nurses were really lovely. Took all his vitals etc. and everything was fine. Healthy boy.

The anaethetist popped in at about 1pm to ask a couple of questions and give me the estimate for the bill. He was great - really friendly and easy to talk to.

We were then told that the pedeatric surgeon had had to book in another baby before us (12 week old for a hernia) and therefore we were knocked back to third in line so we didn't actually get in until 3pm. By this stage DS was starting to get a little bit cranky as he was tired and hungry but was still really good.

I walked down to the theatre carrying DS and got dressed up in the very fashionable theatre gown, cap and shoe covers and sat with DS on my lap while the nurses played games with him. The urologist came over and told me that it wouldn't be long and explained how to look after him once all of this was done.

Carried DS into the theatre with the anaethetist and a couple of the nurses and was able to stay with DS until they knocked him out with gas. They just put the gas over his mouth and he slowly drifted off over a couple of minutes. The anaethetist tried to keep my mind otherwise occupied with some stories about his kids etc. Once DS was out to it, I went back to our room and waited about 30 mins.

Got called back to the recovery room and took his bottle with me. He was crying when I got there but mainly because he was hungry and also a bit because of the after effects of the anaesthetic. They let me jump on the trolley bed and put him on my lap and I fed him there and then. He was still pretty groggy from the whole thing so drank a bit, dozed, drank a bit more. They monitored him for the next 20 minutes or so. While he was in theatre they had put a drip in his arm and one in his foot for fluids. They had taken the one out of his arm before I got there and left the one in his foot for fluids. But it wasn't bothering him at all.

The nurse showed me what they had done with the circumcision while I was in recovery with him and it is actually quite neat. I was expecting blood and gore but there wasn't any. Just a clear plastic ring tied off with some sort of string. That was it.

So we were then wheeled back to our room and told that we needed to wait another hour and a half before we could go just to make sure that he recovered from the anaesthetic alright. Which he did.

So my instructions are to put a cream (is actually eye ointment) on the ring 3 times a day until it runs out. Am also supposed to put some vaseline on a nappy liner everytime I change his nappy to make sure nothing sticks. If it does I have to soak him and the nappy liner to get it off. Am to keep putting the vaseline on for another month and have to go back to the doc in two weeks to make sure everything it ok. Was also told DS will be a bit cranky for the next 24 hours and to keep up the panadol if this is the case. Also, the ring will fall off anywhere between 7 - 10 days and as it starts to fall off it will get a bit red and swollen.

The next day DS was acting as if nothing happened at all. Was completely himself. Didn't need any further panadol.

After the op I gave DS salt baths twice (sometimes three times) a day. was paranoid about him getting an infection which can be one of the complications with circumcisions. Also kept putting the ointment on three times a day and new nappy liner with vaseline at every nappy change.

Sometimes when he did a big poo it would go all over the plastibell, so I always gave him a bath to make sure it all got washed off.

it is quite worrying to go through because you don't know what to expect or how well your child will cope with the procedure. in my case, DS coped really well. he never once cried from any sort of pain from the procedure in the following days. As the plastibell started to separate from the rest of it, it got quite red and swollen and where the plastibell was tied off, the dead skin goes white. It also starts to look a bit weepy/pus-like as it separates also. The plastibell also tended to slide out a bit when I gave DS a bath and about 12 hours after I noticed the separation starting it came off completly in the bath. DS bumped it and the last bit let go. Almost had a heart attack!

Checked him over (i got a bit of a shock when it came off) and all seemed to have healed alright although I did notice that the underside was quite red and raw looking - a bit bloody in fact. I started to stress about that and worried that he might have an infection. Worried all night about it, DS wasn't though. Ended up ringing the doc this morning to see if he could check it for me to make sure it had healed alright. Doc said it was fine and that rawness would go away after a few days. Doc also advised to keep pulling the foreskin back to make sure it doesn't re-adhere to the glans (which can happen) and to clean out all the smegma left underneath. Am to keep up the ointment until my second tube runs out and the nappy liners with vaseline and go back for another checkup in a month.

OK - that was my post. Phew! At the moment we are going back to the surgeon on Thursday for what I hope is his final checkup. Doc just wants to make sure it has healed properly - which i think it has. :)

I appreciate reading everyones views about his topic, but my delimma is DH and I have TOTALLY opposite views, and get very heated and passionate about our way, and have discussed this on and off for 7 years,when our first children were born, and have not managed to agree yet.
I disagree, as there is no religous grounds, for us, and there is no medical reason, IYKWIM, I think you dont whip out the tonsils, or the appendix just in case. and as a nurse have seen some of the side effects of things that go wrong.
DH on the other hand is adamant that his son, will look like him, I mean I think this is a lame excuse for surgery, I mean would you get you child operated on, so they had the same nose, or ear shape etc??? NO so to me this is the same, BUT he is very very very determined, I dont know how to cope with this, I now have a 2month old son ( first after 3 girls) and the subject hasnt been broached for 2 months, but I dont know what to say when it comes up again, I have tried the logical approaches,

DELIMMA!!!

Have you tried telling him that if he wants it done he has to organise it, take him along to the Drs to get it done and do all the after op care and nappy changes?
One guy I know of changed his mind when he was told he would have to take care of everything.

what about getting him to do a bit of internet education. there are plenty of websites around opposing circ's. a lot with very graphic details and pictures, what can go wrong etc. that might be enough for him?

thanks so much kriscee for your story, it was really good for me to know all the details of how it is done and the recovery etc.

DH and i have pretty much decided to have it done if we have a boy, so now we will just wait and see. the good part is that my OB, who i have a lot of trust in, does the procedure, so at least i know who will be doing it.

thanks everyone for your input,

Linda

Hi - we had Alex done last week by a fantastic doctor in the outer eastern suburbs of Melb. He went through all the goods and bads for over half an hour, but we both pretty much knew it all, and what we didn't know doesn't really apply in Australia.

I'm not sure of the actual process, we didn't ask, but Alex cried for a bit when it was done and then he fed and fell asleep.

It was done for a combination of reasons and I'm fine with it. I only know one woman who had her sons done and her doctor was booked out months in advance and would not do them after 7 weeks of age. You pretty much had to book in when you found out you were having a boy !

This doctor was recommended by my OB.

Cheers,
Barb.

Thanks for posting Barb! AND OMG congratulations, did I miss the announcement somewhere??????

*hugs*
Cailin

OMG on having the circumsicion or OMG on having Alex ?!

I put a short note in the birth notices on here. He's eight weeks old tomorrow. Believe it when people say second babies and boys are so much easier !!! at least at this age !!! Surely I can't have go that much better at it since Cait was born ??

Cheers,
Barb.

My Dh isnt done as is our religion, I know my Dad is, but if we ever have a boy he definately wont be done, unless there was a medical reason.

I am like Hayseed, seen may varieties :lol:
They dont fuss me either way, they are all just plain ugly! :shock:

Lindsay is not done. We just could not come up with a strong enough reason to do it. I think is it unnescessary, b/c if you were meant to have it done, you'd be born without it. As for hygiene, it still has to be washed properly regardless. Dh now has regrets and wishes we got him done (mainly b/c he has a friend who had his 2 boys done and is worried he'll be different when he goes to school)

jayden is done and tyler is booked in next week he would of been done a week out of hospital but we had to stay in the day he was booked but there dad is done so that is part of the reason and the hygine reason also we know a guy who had to be done at 13 because he had probs another one at 10 and another one at 5 all different people so i would rather get it done when they young and dont remeber or maybe have to get it done later how embarresing getting it done at 13 however in saying that your son may not have any probs and be fine the whole time
so yes it is a personal choice but they were the reason's we had and are getting our children done
good luck with it all

oh forgot i guy was 22 and had to get done and the receptionist doing all the details was a girl he went to school with HOW EMBARRESING LOL

Before my son was born I was slightly against it and DH was slightly for it (because he's done). After our son had arrived the whole idea went totally out of the window... we just couldn't think of him suffering through a proceedure just so he could look like dad. DH surprised me at how strongly he turned against the idea. Also when I worked at a creche for 5 years I'd say I only ever came across 2 or 3 out of over fifty little boys (over the 5 years) that were circumcised (saw at nappy change time). Maybe it was just the area we lived in but I feel confident that my uncircumsised son will be in the vast majority when he grows up and is playing the comparing game in the boys toilets at school!!! Still, each to their own and I also acknowledge people's religious reasons.

Dh has argued black and blue with me to have it done prior to having a son, but DS is nearly 8months old, and the subject has yet to be brought up, am a bit concerned as his testes are not always decended (they "float" ) so may need operating on, and I think DH will ask for it to be done if we look into it and that happens

I think I expressed my views just once to DH about this. He doesn't seem to mind either way but I am not in favour of it so it won't be getting done.

Mumofbundelz - I don't envy the position you are in. It must be difficult to have your partner on the completely opposite side on this issue.

It is hard, we started debating the topic 8 yrs ago when we fell pg with the first, and it has continued ever since !!!! He has been determined that his son would be clean and look like him. IMHO you dont take out a babys tonsils or appendix or any other part of the body, why steal your sons foreskin, its his!!!!! Anyway thats my opinion,.

OM Gosh this is the first time I have thought about it since Monday when we found out :twinboy: -saw this post .

I am not getting them done unless medically indicated. I respect other peoples' decisions religious/personal /cosmetic .

You don't amputate a child's finger just because dad had his finger cut off - so they look the same - by the way who is looking :shock: to check these things. ( Dad was probably done - before he had a choice in the matter).

I worked in kids ward 11yrs and I saw all those poor little boys having circs at 12/12 -2 yrs or older - and the complications occasionally. Don't tell me they don't feel no pain.

Hardly saw any boys come in with infected foreskins either. DS not circumsised adopted at 13 months - he has no problems - when little sometimes got a bit of a red tip.

In Nursing I too have seen all varieties ;) - yes - keep 'em hidden anyway don't they. I agree with Barley - yep ugly.

Saw this guy @21 come in once because his GF insisted purely for selfish reasons . Pethidine didn't touch him and he cried worst than a baby - :shock: and walked with 2 m wide gait out 2 days later.

I bet you don't see too many guys choosing to have it for cosmetic reasons - :-k what the stats are on it

I think I may habe mentioned this once before when discussing Circ...
Triple J radio station were having a special day set aside for the 'mourning of Foreskins that have been stolen'
Guys were calling in all day with comments etc on their missing, or intact, etc foreskins.
I remember listening to a guy that rang & said at age 18 or 19(?) He got it caught in his zipper & it got infected, so after a few painful days of bathing it himself, too embarassed to go to Dr, he ended up having to go as it had swlled etc... Basically they had to remove his foreskin & he swears that he lost atleast 40-50% sensation!!!
He said he had gone totally of sex as he remembers what it was like before to how it is now...

Now I have no idea how true the loss od sensation is or not as I have never had a foreskin to have it ripped away from me...

But just thought I'd share what this guys experience of sex with & without were!!!

I've read a book on the practise of female circumsion overseas, and thinking how barbaric it was, and we'd never do that, so why do our son??

That is so true isn't it Vanita? Some cultures argue that it is an important part of their culture, yet we abhore it, so why do we feel it is OK to do that to our sons? i have no problems with others doing for whatever reasons they have, I just don't think it is a necessary thing and wouldn't do it to my son. RE the zipper thing, imagine what it would be like if you were done and you got the actual head caught?

Tracey, i've heard too about the loss of sensation, but you would only know if you had a foreskin and then had it removed IYKWIM?

BTW Trish, that's lovely you are having two little boys.

if we have another boy, Lindsay has set the precedent, so there is no way I could have one done and one not done, despite what DH wants to do.

Thankfully we didn't have to deal with this issue (having a girl and all, LOL) but Neil and I have discussed it and never really came to a conclusion.

While I lean more toward not getting any sons we have circumcised, I am still not 100%. I think I would leave it up to Neil.
He was done when he was 1 (which I thought was rather late?? Perhaps because of an infection?? We'll never know because both his parents have passed away). Neil's younger brothers haven't been done so I know it wasn't for religious reasons?? We'll never know....

From what I understand, most boys in Australia these days don't get done... so the ones that are would be the minority which I guess is different from 20-30 years ago.

Still... I'd definitely leave the decision up to Neil. I have no idea what it is like to live with a penis (thank God!! LOL).

Here is an interesting quote from my OB's booklet:

:

---

This is an operation with some risk to baby which was commonly performed on Australian babies from 1920 to about 1975. Less than one in fifteen boys are now circumcised in Brisbane. The operation has risks of causing bleeding or infection with scarring or even death.

There is little reason to have baby circumcised other than cosmetic (ie how the parents think a penis should look). The argument that circumcision reduces the risk of cancer of the penis is not as important as practising good hygeine with or without a foreskin. A reported reduction in sexually transmitted diseases seems related to the presence of untreated tropical ulcers which is not a problem in Australia. The only valid argument for circumcision is that the child will later be ostracised in his community such as if he is Jewish.

Consent for an operation on a minor can, in Australia, only be given by a parent for a therapeutic reason, ie to fix a problem which is then present. This is only rarely the reason for circumcision. In other cases, legal opinion now suggests that parents cannot give permission for routine circumcision which should instead require permission from the Federal Family Court. Without this permission, especially if a complication occurs as they do in between 2 and 10% of cases, the doctor may be charged by the child, over the next 21 years, with criminal assault.

When the risks and benefits of circumcision are considered, there is good evidence to suggest that your baby will be safer if not circumcised.

The Australian Society of Paediatricians has stated in 1997 that no baby should be circumcised under the age of six months unless there is a serious medical problem requiring it. Paediatricians and many obstetricians refuse to circumcise any baby.

---

Deb - I left it all up to Mark as well, I had no idea what was the right or wrong way to go as I said months ago in this post Mark says if it`s there, it`s there for a reason.

We`re expecting another little boy and he also will not be done unless a medical reason pops up sometime in his future.

My partner said that is we had a boy there is no way he is being circumcised. And I feel exactly the same.... If he wants it removed... he can get it done when he is older. If it is for future preventitive measures, why not get their appendix out while you're at it... sorry 8-[

Tanya

While I would never attack someone who decided to have that done to their child, I am also not of the opinion that it is the personal choice of the parent.

Unless it is medically necessary circumcision is wrong. It is immoral to mutilate a perfectly normal child for personal or religious reasons in my opinion.

As I said I am not the type of person to attack people, and there are parents out there who do a lot worse things to their children but in my opinion cut off bits of babies for no medical reason should be made illegal.

Merrie, I don't think it is 'immoral' for parents to do what they believe is in the best interests of their child. I don't think anyone who chooses to circumsize makes the decision lightly & certainly to call it 'mutilating' is a bit unfair. I understand that you feel it is wrong, but what is wrong for you may be right for someone else - this is not the place to judge each other but to support & help each other make the decisions that are right for us - even if they are different!

Linda, I certainly understand your point, and I certainly try to be open minded and supportive of others but I could never be supportive of someone who decided to circumcise their child.

My purpose however isn't to upset or anger any particular person but to express myself and my beliefs.

I think in all things there is a certain point where we have to draw the line regarding what we believe is right and wrong and I believe circumcision is wrong. If I said that I respected other parents right to do this to their children for any reasons but medical ones it would be dishonest and like other issues things can't change unless we stand up for what is right.

I chose the word mutilation not because I wanted to cause offense but because mutilation means "To make imperfect by excising or altering parts" and little boys naturally have foreskins they are there because they should be.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions, let's not let the debate get heated. (not saying it is but let's all just voice our opinions and experiences and move on).

I had considered getting Elijah done before he was born, but as soon as he was in my arms there was no way I was doing it, he was perfect as he was :)

Hi - In the late 60's and 70's when Nick and his bothers were born apparently they just took new born boys off and did them wihtout consent or anthing from the parents !

I think thats where the higher percentages of problems reported in the pamphlet may have come from, and Dr Tom, Dr **** (no pun) or Dr Harry was doing them, these days you have to find someone who specialises in this area as not all doctors do them.

The dr who did Alexs' was fantastic - Jewish doctor who has been doing them for over 20 years, so over 6,000 snips and he said in that time he had had two come back that needed fixing.

I had an interesting conversation with Sean (who is now nearly 11) the other night. He was asking about the difference between cicumsized v uncircumsized.
(Sean is not circumsized but DH is.)
After expaining it he seemed surprised to hear that his dad is done. He had NEVER noticed the difference. He said that they look different anyway, ie size, shape, hair etc. I guess that by the time Sean develops to that extent he won't be seeing his Dad naked anymore to compare anyway.
So there goes the theory of needing to be the same as Dad.

Yep, my brother was not circumcised but our Dad is ... it was never an issue for either of them.

Dee, that is a great comment, I agree with that wholeheartedly, "if it's there, it's there for a reason", ah, except perhaps with tonsils, LOL!

Oh and the appendix!

How can something so useless cause so much trouble? =))