to circumsize or not to circumsize?

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"if it's there, it's there for a reason",

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Hmm, not so sure anymore as we now wear clothing, I was under the impression that is was there for protection from the elements etc. Clothing does that now. I have a problem with this argument, just think about body hair, it used to have a purpose, but we now remove it, yes it can grow back, but there are now methods to remove it permanently.

DH is pro circumcision, I am kind of divided, but leaning towards pro. So my attitude is, that if he wants it done that badly, as his father he can arrange it etc (that is assuming we have another child that is a boy).

Well that's my thoughts on this for now, so I will get back in my corner 8-[

I am not 100% for or against. I know that I personally think a circumsized one looks "nicer" but when it came to it DH and I couldn't see any good reason to do it to our new baby boy, who like Kelly said of Elijah, was perfect!
As far as useless bits of anatomy goes, what about male nipples, should we chop them off too? :-k

As a woman with an un-circumcised DH (hope he never reads that I divulged this! *L*), I have to admit I've never seen what a circumcised one actually looks like! :shock:

I understand the religion/culture arguments and I think this topic is certainly an eyeopener. As a Mommy that turns into a mess just taking her daughter for her 2 month injections (all three of them! *sigh* And a new set of them due in 2 weeks...wah!), I'm not sure I could stand there and have it done to my son unless there were serious health complications if it weren't done IYKWIM?

That said, if it was very important to my DH to have it done for his son; I think I would consider it. I totally respect anyone who chooses to have it done for their male children; it's their choice.

If we have a boy, I cant say how I will feel once I am holding hm but currently, I am leaning towards alowing my husband to make the decision and it is liekly to be, lets get it done.

My DH's foreskin split the second time he had sex :eek: at about the age of 17. It actually ended up badly infected and he had to get circumcised. As you can imagine, the whole debarcle was very traumatising for him. He said he definitely lost alot of sensitivity and as an over all result he is really not that fazed by sex. Becuase of this he has said he would not want his son to go through what he did and I am happy to support this decision.

Having said that, we will probably have all girls! :babygirl:

I also believe "each to their own" and can understand why some people choose to circumsize their sons. For me and my DH it's probably for religious reasons why we choose NOT to circumsize our future sons - if we have any. Cause God put the foreskin there for a reason and when He created man He believed his creation to be perfect.

Now i'm not saying we shouldn't tamper with the appearance of our bodies because we should completely accept them as God created, as i can admit i'd seriously consider breast implants when i've finished breastfeeding all my chn, but if the time comes for me to make that decision I am choosing that for myself - with careful consideration and research.

After reading through this entire thread i can see how important the decision of circumsition can be - therefore shouldn't it be left to those who own the penis to decide???? Just my opinion - i say this with absolutely no judgement and agree with how impressive the posts have been within this thread. Thank you all for some informative reading :)

Just on the conventional wisdom that little boys need to look like dad, I have two brothers - one is and one isn't and that means one doesn't look like Dad. He doesn't seem to be traumatised in any way about not looking the same as his brother or his dad.

Hi

I had my son done at the age of 2 days for a couple of reasons. first its alot easier to clean. 2rd for the reason that my sister boy isnt done and he is 15 now and has been told that if it gets infected again he will have to be done. Any time after 6 months or it could evern be younger they need to be knocked out and its very painfull. My son had a local and had the bell type done where they make alittle cut and put like a bell on the knob and it falls off around 5 days and then thats done. He didnt evern cry. If I had another son I would also get him done. Stuff like daddy like son. Thats not how it has to be!!!!

My boy of 4 months isn't circumsised, but I know when I was pregnant I did a lot of looking into it also.

I assumed that most boys were still getting done, but was really shocked that the highest in one state was about 20% .

I have heard the arguments from either side, but I found it really hard to reason to get it done just because their father may be done. Why? Most boys are more likely to see what other boys are like (like in urinals & change rooms etc) than they are going to see their dads. And the fact is majority of boys aren't being done.

I am also a single mum, so I knew that I didn't have to worry what the father wanted. But I was concerned about how to approach the 'keeping it clean' as they grew older. I suppose I will cross that bridge when I get it!!

The whole its cleaner argument just doesnt sit with me. I have 3 gorgeous girls and I cant say I ever thought to myself..omg a vagina..i will have to teach them to wash it..and the same goes for my son ..normal hygiene applies just like his ears, nose, legs I absolutely believe it is there for a reason!!! And we now know that masturbation doesnt need to be curbed so we dont need to lop the foreskin off boys in an attempt to stop masturbation!!! Wearing clothes to me doesnt allieviate the need for a foreskin...same as we dont remove the labia from our vaginas because we have clothes. I honestly believe that if the choice has to be made it should be the boy in question making decisions for himself...barring religious or medical neccesity.

Jo

Hi girls,
When my son was born my hubby and i had decided that we would circumcise him. But that wasnt the result. He ended up being a special care baby and son we couldnt find a surgeon to do him whilst in care. They all ahd the opinion it was better to wait until he was 6 months old. When i finally did get him home, there was no way i could put him through any more drama;so we boycotted the idea.
Many years transpired;i suspected when he was in grade 1;that we were going to have problems as his foreskin was still completely adhered on one side. Whenever he showered if he was slightly too excited about washing he would slightly tear the skin and we would end up with lots of tears pain and antibiotics.
I went and saw many specialists;all with differing opinions. The one i saw at the rch i liked the best. he said the problem would certainly right itself but who knows when and it was highly likely that it could take till puberty. So i thought that means even more years of this ongoing problem and i was also worried about the psychological impact-as i didnt want him having a pain association with intamacy when he is older.
So i decided to have him circumscised at 9 years. It was a lot less traumatic than i ever imagined. he had 2 weeks off school because i didnt want to risk any of his peers bumping him. He went for about 4 days with no jocks;he just wore a towel around his hips. Topically we applied vaseline;hardly any blood loss. Quite a bit of blistering and scabbing,but he bounced back so quickly and is now a lot less concerned about the whole showering thing.

Pauline

Whichever way you do decide to go Brooke, it will be the right choice for your family.

So what do you do when you are a "mixed faith" marriage? I was brought up Church of England and DH is Jewish. Although neither of us are religious at all (DH went to a private boys Church of England School, he has not been to a temple since his bamizvah, cannot even describe the meaning of any of the Jewish holidays for me and we celebrate Christmas).
However, DH is circumcised and wants our baby to "look like him" if it's a boy. I am 100% against it as there is no medical reason for it and our kids will not be raised jewish (we both totally agree on this, though they will know about their Dad's family background), so doing it for religious reasons is out the door. Even so, he is stuck on wanting it done and we are really locking horns. It doesn't help that my Parents-in-Law are now putting pressure on him not to turn his back on the family traditions etc and his brother had is son done, so now there is pressure to have the cousins look the same (whatever!)
Anyway I am at a loss as to what I should do. I am so against it that I just know I would never forgive myself if I let it happen - but on this matter there is no position of compromise and I can't bear the thought of it coming between DH and I.
Please give me some advice!

If we have a son we wont be having it done, my DH isnt & although I have seen many varied penises in my time (nope I'm not a dr...;) )
Our family is Hindu & they dont circumsize, so that's great as I am quite set in my mind that it's not necessary & DH will show any son's in our family how to keep it clean etc...

I do have friends that for religious purposes have had this done & I would never comment or offer my opinion infact I think its' quite fine to have it done to their child for religious purposes... But for me & my son's I know am like Jo, if they cut things off no longer deemed necessary there'd be tonsil's, labia etc sitting around in hospital bin's!!

Plus I know I'd love every part of may baby so much ioncluding his little skin, however I am sure its' #3 Pink for me!!! hee hee

Wow, there is so much to weigh up. When I was pg we talked about it but never came to a decision, in the end I said, it's up to my DH as I didn't have a strong prefference either way. Well when we had DS, DH decided that we should have him done as growing up as a boy he new that boys tend to put personal hygine on the backburner and he didn't want him to have problems if he was slack at cleaning properly despite our efforts to teach him. Also DH is and says he likes it that way.So it was decided and then when we were in hospital, nobody (ie:staff) would help us out in finding out about getting it done or who could do it, They all were quite blunt in there opinions which were against it and as a reult we still haven't taken it further for fear of persecution from medical staff as we don't know anyone who does it. My sister is also a paed nurse and said if she had a son she would get him done because she has seen sooo many young boys come in with very bad infections from simply not cleaning properly and they have had to get it done anyway and it was alot more traumatic at that time. Especially embarrassment wise as they felt humiliated comming into hosp for that reason. The decisions you have to make as parents are so much harder than as a single person, as your shaping someone else's life. You want to make the right one and there is no manual to tell you how!!!

I disagree that "boys tend to put personal hygine on the backburner"

If that was the case and there were sooooooo many infections and problems with boys who were not circumcised, then tell me why this procedure is not done routinely.

As for my situation, my DH understands that there is no medical reason for it and also that in Australia, only approximately 5% of boys are done now...but I think it is a combination of fear and ego that is making him still want it done if we have a son.

I don't think that we will ever know what the percentages are because there are so many deciding factors, ie religion (either for or against) and where you live - certain areas will have higher numbers of boys done than others kwim? As for the being like Dad thing, it has never come up in conversation with my 5yo boy who isn't done, as to why he is different from his Dad, maybe it just isn't an issue for him. Maybe I am naive, but maybe it doesn't matter to boys in the school yard what they look like down there? Maybe we assume that it will be a problem for them if they go to school with boys who mainly are and visa versa and it wont matter at all. I reckon in my son's class at school it would be a 50-50 split, for various reasons and not once has it ever been an issue for him. Maybe when he gets to the other end of school that boys will jest with one another about it, but I think not - teen boys usually have other things on their mind than one another's penis'.

I wouldn't get a boy circumcised unless there was a good medical reason for it. It is an unnecessarily painful procedure that has well-documented risks of infection. There are cases (unusual, I know, but still a concern) where it has affected sexual function later in life. As far as making hygiene easier, unless you have a boy that has some kind of serious infection problem, circumcision really only evades our responsibility as parents to teach children good personal hygiene - and believe me, I know mates (and the husbands of some of my girl friends) who are circumcised and are just as smelly and dirty simply because they still don't wash regularly.

Essentially, unless performed for medical reasons, circumcision is cosmetic surgery, like body piercing, and body enhancement or reduction. I personally wouldn't subject my child to a cosmetic surgical procedure at such a young age - they have many years to do things like that!

We had Alex done at about 6 weeks old - he cried for a few minutes, had a feed and went to sleep. I asked my OB to recommend someone as another doctor who was recommended to us was booked out for weeks in advance and only did them up until the bub is 7 weeks old.

We had no medical or religious reasons and we both agreed that we wanted it done if we had a boy.

My husband is Jewish, although I am not. I totally respect his religion, and when we had a baby boy I had no hesitation in his wishes for him to be circumsized. Although I come from a Christian background... my father and both of my brothers are circumsized.

I had discussed circumcision with my ob - and he was totally fine about it and said that he would find a surgeon if we needed one. When I later mentioned that my husband would like a Rabbi to do it - my ob said that the mohel (rabbi's that do the circumcisions) - do heaps of them, and are probably more experienced than any surgeon. He said that it is completely safe.

I had witnessed the brit (circumcision) of a friends boy.... so I was prepared for it.
Jewish tradition is that the the brit is performed on the 8th day after birth. And the Rabbi comes to our house to do it. Many Jews have a big 'party' but we chose to just have my parents there. As I was not Jewish, it was difficult to find a Rabbi willing to perform a brit on a boy that is essentially 'not Jewish'... but we found a lovely Rabbi who understood our situation.

It was over in seconds... and Shaun used to cry more when he used to have a bath or get his nappy changed. We gave him his bottle immediately after the brit, and he was quite content. It was a lot less traumatic then I thought it would be.

The Rabbi did a great job, and he checked and redressed it a couple of days later. A week later the little bandage was soaked off, and there has never been any problems.

I would not be fussed either way if my husband was not Jewish. I think it's a personal decision and no-one should be judged - regardless of their reason for doing it.

It's very interesting to read so many points of view. All are valid even when different, it's such a personal decision.

I am one of three girls and when I was pg I researched this issue as I had no idea about circ. I was surprised to find out that the procedure on newborns is now done using the plastibell technique, with local anaesthetic. This was one of the reasons I decided to circ Jack (and Thomas since). Another reason was reading about the health problems circ can prevent. But the main reason I decided to do it was hearing from friends about boys having to have it done later in life. I was surprised to be asked by a male friend of DHs who never talks about personal things with me if we would be circing Jack. When I said yes he said he was really glad bcos he'd watched his brother have to have it done at 8 years old and it was horrifically painful.

My main reason for being hesitant once I accepted that it wouldn't be painful, is that I didn't want my boys to be different from others. But a school teacher I know said that she knows which of her students is and isn't, as they do all talk about it. And the older ones mostly aren't, but the younger ones mostly are. Apparently it's far more common now, it is coming back into favour. So my boys won't be so different!

Having now had two boys done at 2 weeks old or less, I am now happy we did it. They clearly weren't in pain from the procedure and there were no complications. But everyone should do what is right for them.

Sorry but I really don't agree that any child who has this done is in no pain. I have read recent studies that have shown an infant who does not cry when the procedure is done is actually more likely to be in a state of shock and in withdrawl from such immense pain that they are physically unable to make a sound - rather than just being "fine". Also, many babies actually lapse into a momentary coma from the trauma - either from the procedure or when the anesthetic wears off

My personal choice was to not circumsize my son... his father was annoyed because he wanted his son to be "like him"
I can clearly remember being against circumsision when my little brother was done... I didn't understand the need to remove something that is already there... I wouldn't want a part of my body, which is perfectly normal to have, removed for no apparent reason.
My son is almost 13, and not once has the conversation of "circumsised or not" come up within his group of friends or his classmates... I guess they have more important things to discuss.
If this baby is a boy, my DH is more than happy that he not be circumsised... even though DH is.

My son was done and although I had doubts about it before hand Im glad I did it. From what I saw, I cant understand the hatred for it that alot of people have. My son survived, its not impacting on him now and it wont in the future unless he comes across people who will judge him for it, he cant miss something he doesnt remember having. Its a parents choice and they shouldnt be punished for it. Same as pro-circ'ers wouldnt hold it against anti-circ'ers who choose not to do it. If it was so horrible, there would be a law against it.

Yep, i totally agree with Anna too. Jesse was circumcised at 6 weeks and the only time he cried was when they gave him the local needle. He didnt cry during the proceedure or after, infact when the nurse brought him out to me he sat there talking to me the whole time we had to wait afterwards. I bought childrens panadol just incase and the first time we had to use it was him 2 month immunisation due to fever. I too was a little worried before hand but am glad we decided to do it. I know so many people who have had to get their son done at a later age and it has scarred them. I would hate to have to put him through that. Sure there is a large chance that wont happen but at least now he knows no different.

I think in todays society it will be 50/50 as to whether boys are circumcised or not. The OB we went to was booked out for weeks and was doing them every 15 minutes. The waiting room was completely full and there were other OBs we had referals too from our GP also.

Its just a personal decision and i dont think any boy, done or not, will be treated any less differently at school. DH told me there were friends of him at school who werent (DH is) and they had better things to talk about than what their willy looked like. And i dont think anyone should be descriminated against for choosing to or not to have their son done.. its the parent's decision, no one elses.

I don't think there has been any hostility expressed here - just opinions on both sides and reasons why people feel as they do. Circumcision is an elective procedure so you will always find people with strong views on both sides. There are various sources out there, both for and against but in the end, the choice is up to you. If you decide to circumcise your son and you are happy with that decision, it shouldn't matter what anybody else thinks of it.

I could draw comparisons between this thread and many others on BB in which opinions about birth and infant feeding are divided but I don't think that is really necessary as I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at.

Well said Jillian I agree with you wholeheartedly... :hug:

*mwa*
Cailin

I for one do find it difficult to not get saddened and annoyed by this topic. Honestly I thought it was such an outdated process that was done years and years ago before we all knew better until i joined BB over 2 years ago. I had never before then heard of anyone doing it or wanting to do it. I guess for me....i couldnt subject my child to such a painful procedure because I felt it looked better or whatever..i just dont feel like i could do it as it would somehow be disrespecting my son and his own wonderful body which to me is perfect just the way it is. I guess I will continue to be saddened but hope that as time goes on this practice will be erradicated completely.

Jo

I must be different, as I feel there are much more important things to feel sad about in this world with regards to children, such as are they loved, are the fed, given the basics to have a normal start in life, as opposed to whether a little boy's foreskin is removed.

For me one doesnt rule out the other.

Jo

Jo I can see where you are coming from however your most recent comment can easily be taken the wrong way. I know you wouldn't be implying that people who chose to circ their boys are similar to those who neglect and abuse children but I think that last comment could easily be taken that way.

Please everyone this is a touchy discussion chose your words with caution, and if you can't respect others POV then please don't post in this topic.

This discussion will not be closed, as it is helpful to parents. However, inflammatory posts will be edited or removed.

*mod hat off*

Brooke I couldn't agree with you more hon!

*hugs*
Cailin

Cailin..my comment was meant to be in regards to for me being sad about circumcising and children who are abused etc...not that because I am sad about circumcising I am not sad about other sad things in the world...therefore one not ruling out the other..just wanted to add that in case anyone else thought it was meant how you had interpreted it.

Jo

Nononono I was just saying I didn't want anyone to interpret it that way ;)

*hugs*
Cailin

I'm just wondering if anyone else read the New Scientist article on circumcision last month. After I read it I was quite glad that my boys are circumcised. In a large scale trial in Africa they circumcised adult men and the differance in the incidence of STDs (not just HIV) between the guys who were done and the guys who weren't done was so high that they halted the trial to allow the uncirced guys to get done if they wanted. A trial in NZ has had similar findings and in the light of thses studies the American College of Medicine is currently reviewing its recomendations regarding circumcision. Of course safe sex and monogomy are better preventatives of STDs than circumcision but even so if the incidence of infection is so much higher in uncircumcised men I can't help but to feel glad that my boys have a little bit of an extra safety margin IYKWIM.
Caro, the WHO isn't opting for it to be mandatory (which would be impossible to enforce anyway) just encouraged. The scale of the AIDS epidemic is such that anything that might reduce it is worth a shot. They also co-ordinate safe sex educational programs.
If anyone would like to read the article I could probably manage to scan it for you (but it may take me a while ;) )

Shannon, it's the 25th Nov 2006 edition. Its on the website but its a subscription only article.

Milo is not done becuase I felt the risks associated with the procedure, and possible infection outweighed the chance of infection later in life requireing it to be done.

However, I can see how other people would want to have this done, and its up to them.

Jillian, particulary in your case I can't believe anyone would object, especially family!

I guess thats just it some people don't see it as unnecessary ;) Otherwise they wouldn't do it. This is another one of those discussions which is always going to get people who believe strongly and those who don't. And thats ok but *please* remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions and decisions... We all don't have to agree :)

*hugs*
Cailin

Ok this is why I HATE these topics, because its sooo easy to misunderstand what someone is saying...

Please guys take a step back and as I know you both somewhat well I know neither of you would want to attack or upset anyone its just one of those things where the internet causes things to get crossed. Like the comment Jo made, I knew she didn't mean it the way it could have been taken. Please think about this before posting... and don't post in anger... as you will only regret this later!

C'mon girls we're all friends and mothers who love our children and we can *try* to discuss this without hostility towards each other.

*hugs*
Cailin

No true, but the question you asked could easily be perceived as you saying (And I know you didn't say this I'm just using it as an example) that if you do choose to circ your choosing to hurt your child unnecessarily and you want to cause them unnecessary pain. Now I KNOW you didn't mean it that way but can you see how it can be perceived that way. Words suck... we need more than just emoticons, tone and body language are SOOOOO important and that is why these things happen.

*hugs*
Cailin

unfortunately all our kids will suffer some sort of pain throughout their childhood.
They will fall over constantly. They will have their innoculations....

does a 'comfort' mother not innoculate her child because the injection will hurt? And if you do not innoculate your child - then that's fine. I would never tell a mother the evils of not innoculating. Because it's their child. Their choice.

Mothers circumcise their boys for various reasons... and they never do it to purely "inflict unneccessary pain" on their child.

For whatever reason a mother does it - it is their child, their choice.

Caro... don't get upset. Yes, this forum is a 'gentle' forum... but even Kelly said she considered circumcision. I think some of the 'gentle' people are starting to refrain from commenting if they don't endorse it... to save the conflict... particularly when it is posted in the 'general' section and not the 'comfort/gentle' section. If you don't believe in certain methods - that is fine. You are welcome to that opinion. But as much as we respect you - mothers who circumcise their children should also be respected.

LOL Caro ya dag!

Yes you do need more smilies :D Smiles are good...

ETA: And thank you all for understanding where I was coming from. I know I can be such a PITA sometimes trying to keep the peace all the time. But I know what its like to be misunderstood, or better yet to misunderstand... and I hate to see others go through that!

*hugs*
Cailin