I'm happy :lol: if you're happy :wink:
spread the smiles. spread the love.
hugs to everyone :grouphug:
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I'm happy :lol: if you're happy :wink:
spread the smiles. spread the love.
hugs to everyone :grouphug:
Brooke, I listened to Triple JJJ & the mourning the foreskin programme & that sealed it for me that I'd not have the procedure done, plus it's actually not done in DH's religion which is also a blessing for me...
We visited my friend the other day & her new 5-6 wk old son & her newly arrived husband from Turkey, he is Muslim, she mentioned to me during her pregnancy (hubby was still in Turkey at the time) that she was afraid of having a boy & her hubby wanting his son cic'd....
I said she would have to discuss it now before baby is born so he knew her thoughts etc...
This is the last time we have spoken about it, I do not know if he has been done... Basically what I'm saying is I'd never ask coz it's rude (IMHO) & I dont really think she owes it to me or anyone else to discuss it, have to explain the decision the decided etc... It's just not warranted I love the little bugger, he is not my son & it's not my place to comment or pass jusdgement or opinion, if he is done or not I really dont care, he is still the same to me...
But for my son I know I ownt be having it done... I am certain she'll never question us either!!!
Mutual respect!!!
Sorry, but thats not the way it goes. I think a parents who have actually been through it with their babies are in more of a position to know how much trauma their baby went through. Jillian my experiences were very much like yours, hun. No worries at all - not "a state of shock" and definitely not a momentary lapse into a coma. Thats ridiculous. Honestly, I have had 4 boys done and if I thought that it was 'barbaric' I certainly would not have repeated it after the first time.:
Sorry but I really don't agree that any child who has this done is in no pain. I have read recent studies that have shown an infant who does not cry when the procedure is done is actually more likely to be in a state of shock and in withdrawl from such immense pain that they are physically unable to make a sound - rather than just being "fine". Also, many babies actually lapse into a momentary coma from the trauma - either from the procedure or when the anesthetic wears off
I can understand and respect parents decisions not to have their sons done - I would never, ever presume to tell someone how to make such a personal decision. I am quite sick of defending my parenting choices.
Right On Tracey!!!:
This is the last time we have spoken about it, I do not know if he has been done... Basically what I'm saying is I'd never ask coz it's rude (IMHO) & I dont really think she owes it to me or anyone else to discuss it, have to explain the decision the decided etc... It's just not warranted I love the little bugger, he is not my son & it's not my place to comment or pass jusdgement or opinion, if he is done or not I really dont care, he is still the same to me...
But for my son I know I ownt be having it done... I am certain she'll never question us either!!!
Mutual respect!!!
Thank you Natalie. My thoughts exactly. I would never criticise anyone for not circing, but that statement regarding trauma is definitely not true. I have seen both my sons go through it and they were fine. As a mother I would know if they were distressed. And like Natalie, I would never have done it again if there was any doubt about my first son being fine. In both cases a lot of local anaesthetic cream was applied first so why would there be pain? And as for shock, the most distressing thing for my first son seemed to be having his nappy taken off! As I have mentioned previously, I know of boys who had to have it done later in life and I believe that is far more likely to cause trauma. To each his own, but I'd hate for anyone to mistakenly think that we have put our boys though pain, shock and trauma.
You said everything i had in my mind Melainie.. couldnt have put it better myself!
Jesse was exactly the same. He had a local needle, cried having his nappy off and having the needle and then stopped. Was fine during the proceedure and sat in the waiting room talking his head off afterwards. He never from my observation, sufferred any trauma. He wasnt physically able to make a sound at all.
I mean if you search enough you can find studies that are pro both ways, i think it just depends on the author's opinion of which is best, so i think its just a personal decision for a parent to make on what they personally believe is best for their child.
WOAH Natt your a hottie!!! hee hee nice AV..
Thanks, darl... It just really doesnt interest me if they got him done, she/they have never questioned us having the ceremonies for our kids, burying the placenta or belly button, nor will they question the other various balinese beliefs that we will do... Like tooth filing... Yep filing our teeth so they are all straight, it is a massive celebration in Bali, to have the incisor teeth filed flat align with others as they believe it is demon like & at the coming of age.. (I will getmine done with the kids) It is a very dangerous (Black magic) ceremony to perfoprm as they put you in a trance/coma like state to perform it... But it's part of life there & if someone told me it was a bad decision for myself & kids... I'd be pretty offended!
So come on all it's fine to say no I dont want it for my child, but lets not tell others they are poor parents for having made decisions & choices different to ours!!!
Lets recognise that the world is made up of many splendid things... If we all did things the same it's be a boring life (you'd all be copying me... HA HA HA!!!!)
HUGS & KISSES PPL!!!!
Look who's talking, sexy, lol ;)
Your a gorgeous human being inside and out, hun. Your av doesn't do your heart justice - even though it's very hot, lol.
Before I read this post I was pro and now after reading it I am still pro but for different reasons. At first I wanted it done for the fact Noah will look like daddy and because I don't want to teach a 10yo to clean his willy because that is when the foreskin can be pulled back. I was starting to think maybe I wouldnt get it done because of most of the arguments against are quite valid and I was seeing the sense in them. Then I was seeing the tally go up on later in life circs due to infection, I would rather put my boy through very little pain as soon after birth rather than have a 9 yo boy go through weeks of pain and being able to remember it when he is older. My stand-in OB told me it can't be done until after 6 months but I want it done right after birth asap so I now have the job of trying to find somewhere that does it within 6 weeks in Victoria arggg
That's unusual that a doc would wait 6+ months.:
Due to Jewish tradition, boys are done on the 8th day of birth.
I would just ask around.... maybe ask your friends who have had their sons done. They should be able to refer someone. I'm sure it is done within weeks of birth in a hospital or doctors rooms.
I even had a Jewish doctor willing to come to our house to do it, but then we were able to get an actual Rabbi.
While BF certainly does reduce the incidence of UTI's, it's nowhere near as effective as circumcision.:
Urinary Tract Infections (UTIs)
This is a major selling point of circumcision advocates today, but the main reason babies get urinary tract infections (usually caused when intestinal bacteria from their mother colonise the inner surface of the foreskin and then spread up the urethra) is not because of the foreskin. The most important cause is when new-born babies are taken away from their mothers in modern hospitals before they have a chance to receive their mother's antibodies, and thus natural resistance, to the maternal bacteria. The best solution is simply to make sure that a newborn baby stays with his mother and starts to breast feed ASAP; mother's milk will supply the necessary antibodies and thus protect the urinary tract. (There is nothing wrong with intestinal bacteria on the inner foreskin surface; in fact, they probably keep out harmful bacteria.)
There are many, many studies that prove that circumcision is very beneficial. For some examples of the studies there is a site called circinfo . net:
Infections of the urinary tract (UTI) are regarded as being COMMON in the pediatric population [192]. The highest prevalence and greatest severity of UTIs in boys is prior to 6 months of age [316, 392], decreasing after infancy [408]. The younger the infant, the more likely and severe will be the UTI and the greater the risk of sepsis and death [314]. A preliminary study in Sweden has shown that early breastfeeding might also lower UTI [219], but, whilst worthwhile for many reasons, is less effective, and cannot be advocated as a replacement for circumcision. Research showing an association of UTI with lack of circumcision is extensive and the link is now unequivocal. Most of the evidence has emerged over the past 20 years or so.
A large study in Canada of equal numbers of neonatally circumcised and uncircumcised boys saw rates of UTI and hospital admissions for UTI that were 4-fold higher in the uncircumcised [356]. In Australia, a relatively small study in Sydney involving boys under 5 years of age (mean 6 months) found that 6% of uncircumcised boys got a UTI, compared with 1% of circumcised [78]. A US study of 1025 febrile infants aged less than 2 months found the cause was UTI in 21.3% in uncircumcised boys, 2.3% in circumcised, and 5% in girls [409]. Odds ratio of UTI associated with being uncircumcised was 10.4 (bias-corrected 95% CI: 4.7-31.4).
Jodie, I think that could be if they are going to have a general anaesthetic.
Caro, my 'sweeping statements that aren't necessarily correct' are based on scientific evidence. Circumcision is effective in preventing UTI's. More uncircumcised babies get UTI's than circumcised. It's a well documented fact whether you agree with it or not. I never claimed that circumcised babies don't get UTI's - I said it 's more effective than BF, of which I'm an advocate. Did you actually read the report or just my comments on it?
Until you have scientific proof that refutes my post, can you please refrain from attacking them. I don't make sweeping statements. You don't have to agree with my opinions, but please don't insult them.
:
Aaahhh yes,.... you would be right there Natalie.
As many mums of circ'd boys have announced - the babies do not appear to be too distressed with either a local or no anaesthetic.
Sarah, Jesse was done at 6 weeks.. i think that is the cut of to do it with a local, after that you have to wait and get it done with a general (thats what the OB who did it policy was). Just ask your GP, they usually have a list of specialists and should be able to give you some contact numbers.
I too would rather it done early than later. I accidently cut Jesse's finger with nail clippers in the past and trust me theyll show you when theyre in pain. He never showed any pain throughout apart from the local needle. Do whatever you feel is best. ;)
Hi there
I have a son Callum who is almost 1 and we had him done not to look like daddy but I know to many friends that are having problems with the forskin and might have to get them done anyway. Callum was 2 days old and he had a local to numb it and he didnt feel athing. Its just easier to have them done then not to. As long as you get a good doc to do it and at a very young age is best. I think you should have them done before you leave the hospital. But anyway thats just my thoughts.
I would just like to make clear for posters that my edited post above was for a grammatical error.
I am not saying Caro that your commentwas directed to me, but just wanted it known publicly that I didn't do that.:
But its okay for people to write things then edit them after they have already upset me?
**comes in waving white flag**
I am probably being a little defensive regarding my parenting choices. When I read back I think the tone of my posts are a little harsh.
Caro, I will agree to disagree with you. ;)
You shouldnt take anything to heart as everyone is going to disagree and have different thoughts about this. I had my son done and am glad but of cause some ppl dont feel the same and that is ok too. To cirs or not is up to the mums and dads. All I can say it if it is done properly and with a good doc you can save your little ones from having pain. I wouldnt have had it done if my doc/ob didnt give him a local. He felf no pain at all. Im sure without it babies do feel pain but there so new that they wouldnt know where the pain was coming from.
I think its ok for boys not to be done if parents dont want that and its fine for them to be done. I wouldnt get upset about other ppls coments.
Caro, you really need not take things to heart. I know being pregnant is an emotional time, ive been there myself, but you seem to think that everyone is against you on everything and that is not the case at all. And that as soon as someone says something different to your view that theyre lashing out or having a dig at you. Like you, everyone is entitled to their opinions and people who have experienced these things know first hand what is dealt. Sure there are studies and facts and whatever anyone wants to find on the internet, but a first hand experience is just as good if not better knowledge of a subject if you ask me. It doesnt mean what you post is wrong its just that someone has experienced something different to the author of your link. Unfortunately, babies arent born with manuals.. even the internet cant tell you everything about them, it may help alot but as a parent yourself you'd know you have to pick things up as you go and make the decisions yourself. Id love to look up and see what Jesse is whinging about now.. i think its his teeth though ;)
But please dont take anything that is written on here heart, especially my post as theres no sarcasim or hatred or anger to it. We're all just one big happy family :)
Now go make youreself a cuppa ;)
Im saying when you get them done not save them pain if you dont.
Just relax hun!!!!
I think my doctor said after 6 months because there isn't anyone who does it without a general unless I travel to Melbourne maybe which I need to do anyway because my little boy has club foot so that specialist is in Melbs. I would much rather a local than take the risk of a general anyday. I guess I will be needing to do a bit of asking around. The only other parents of a boy I know are waiting for the 6 month point for the general but I might get some answers out of the midwives on Friday. Most doctors are anti from what I am gathering, maybe midwives are less so?
Yeh give the midwives a go but i found it the other way around when i was asking while i was pregnant. The midwives didnt seem to want a bar of it but we went to our local GP (as youll need a referral anyways) and he pulled out his book and gave us 2 names in the area and was totally fine about it. I do know in my area, they wont book you in unforunately until the baby is born, i guess being incase its not actually a boy and you forget to cancel your appointment.
Hello out there, just thought i would put in 2 cents worth having older sons. None of my boys are circed. For our family it is against our cultural beliefs. My boys have progressed from around 2 to retracting their own foreskins (just with normal play and pulling), we then taught them it was important to clean under their foreskins, and now as older kids it is just a part of their hygiene practices. When i do swimming with the school and help our boys classmates change etc it is very very rare to see a circumcised penis. so just from this exposure over the last 6 years at school i would suspect circumsion is on the decline (not a researched fact though guys, sorry too lazy! ;) ). My DH is circ and my boys actually feel sorry for him :lol: they are very attached to their foreskins :biggrin: . For our family it would go against all my philosophies on gentle parenting to remove their foreskin, i believe for us it is unnecessary and i would not want to put them through an unnecessary procedure. We have been fortunate that my boys have had no probs with their foreskins (except that they could stretch them to unbelievable lengths) and when they discuss it, as they did notice den was circed they were really grateful we didn't get them done.
Being a paediatric nurse i have seen alot of circs done and i have to say that all the babies i saw reacted by crying and sometimes were in a state of shock.
Some research i have read suggested that the jewish religion circed on the 8th day was because the baby's clotting factors settled from the fetal period after day 7 and they bled less, i can't actually remember where i read this but my grandmother was jewish and so i remember people discussing this.
For us i am opposed to circumcision but for your families follow your hearts, as long as parents make informed choices then go for it :cool:
beckles
Interesting point Neverplan......:)
Def. ask your ob (anyone who's looking for someone....). I have a friend who wants to get her bub circed if it's a boy, she asked our Ob and he said he could organise someone (I think to do it in hossy?). Apparently he didn't seem that impressed, and discussed the pros and cons with her, but when he realised her mind was made up he said he would find a Dr who would do it for her.
Not contributing to the debate, just putting out info for whoever wants it ;)
Kellxx - sorry to butt in but I have to tell you that the reason first hand experience is not as good an indication as a scientific study is that the former is what is known as anecdotal evidence. Just because one person had a good experience or a bad one doesn't mean that another person will have the same.
Reputable scientific studies are far more reliable. Of course that doesn't stop someone else distorting the findings to suit themselves but that is beside the point.
Jillian.............. Yes thats right. When my son was done he had a local and didnt cry or anything. Slept straight through it. So I believe that as I said before, If you find a good doc/ob and has done lots then your baby is in good hands. Evern after we got home from the hospital, (Callum was 2 days old when he was done) he was fine. We just had to put lots of vaso on it to keep it from sticking to the nappy. We had no problems at all.
But on the other hand, I can understand how some mothers feel. Im sure there are doc out there that dont use anything and the babies would have to feel that. Im just glad I found a great ob. He was so good during my pg and birth and the good thing is he also does cirsn. I was lucky. 3 of my girlfriends have been to him to get their sons done as well. There are not alot of doc that do it.
Anyway, I think its ok to cirsm or not. I just thought it was easier.
Neverplan- I agree with you. About ppl getting angry with other ppls decisions. Its no one elses business.
Oh well its abit like religon and pol, you dont talk about it. I think you can add cirsm to that now as to many ppl argue about it!!!!!!!!!
Maybe not, but when everyone here who has had their son done, which is a larger amount than i would have thought, has said they were perfectly fine during and after the procedure and never showed any agitation, you would still take note wouldnt you? I have not read on here that one person who had their son done was regretful as they were in agony or suffered from the experience.:
I think it just goes that whatever one believes is right, one will stand by no matter what anyone says, and that is fair enough, thats the human right and is their discretion. But for instance, if you cut your finger and someone suggests to put a band aid on it, where studies show that fresh air is better than a dark, moist atmosphere, you still may contemplate using a band aid. It may not mean that either method is correct, its just 2 different views on what is best for the situation. That is all i was trying to put across to Caro. It doesnt mean that her links and and quotes are wrong (as she seemed to feel everyone was saying), its just that people have personally experienced it differently and never saw any distress as the studies are showing. And in my opinion, a first hand experience is just as good. No one has to agree with me, thats the whole point to my post.. its a personal desision.
we had this same question when i was preggo with first son. We decided both our sons dont need to be like DH and didnt have them done. our hospital said they dont do them unless special request as they believe more problems from circ than no circ. Im also a softie and didnt want to inflict anymore trauma on my fresh babies. they had to take my boys away for bloodwork in feet coz i didnt want to hear them cries their little eyes out(yes, my DH says im a sook too!)
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:angel: Floyd 11 Jan 2001
:biggrin: Thomas 22 Oct 2002
:biggrin: Cody 8 Dec 2003
I agree Kell, being a gentle parenting forum I would have thought that rate of circumcision here would be less than in overall society and it probably is.:
when everyone here who has had their son done, which is a larger amount than i would have thought, has said they were perfectly fine during and after the procedure and never showed any agitation
I don't agree with the POV that I have heard raised elsewhere that circumcision isn't or can't be a part of gentle parenting.
Sonia, nobody likes to inflict trauma on babies.
Cai :)
Ok Im just going to bite my tongue on this one and walk away..:
Nat? LOL! What did I do :P or were you saying "K" as in OK?
I agree... I know that Circ isn't technically gentle parenting... but we did it with the most gentlist techniques in mind. But at the end of the day for me my gentle parenting techniques are more towards how I parent as in techniques and discipline and how I settle my children for sleep than circing vs. immunisation (BUT thats just me) it is a very broad definition and no two people will *ever* agree on everything LOL! So I guess I agree with both of you... I don't think Circ has to be "ungentle" although many people see the practice (no matter how its done) as ungentle. BUT this is just my opinion and you're welcome to disagree with it but its not going to change it :lol: (tongue in cheek)...
*mwa*
Cailin
No the smiley was for you, lol. You said we should have smilies, LMAO!
I probably worded that wrong - I meant that you can be a gentle parent and circumcise.
Caro, with that statistic, you are assuming that the 5000 members have sons or even children.:
This board has just over 5000 members and from what I have read on this post it would be about 10 - 20 people who have had their child circ'd even if you tok into account all the people who havent said they have had it done it would maybe be 100 - even if it was 500 its still tiny.
OI! I said no POLL!
The admin doesn't want this to become an us & them... which it already is...
Seriously I do NOT want to be forced to close this thread... but if we can't calm down and agree to disagree I WILL close it!
We are trying to give the benefit of the doubt that this will calm down and people will move on... but if we can't then maybe it will have to be closed.
*hugs*
Cailin
Because i cant say anything without you jumping on my back about it because i chose to circumcise my child and you wouldnt.:
Walking away is just me agreeing to disagree.. i dont understand why you cant.
Ok good :P I thought you were being cheeky.
*hugs*
Cailin
Cai, I posted then deleted because i hadn't read your post. I can understand you thinking about closing this thread because it's becoming more of a fight than an informed debate.
If it has gotten out of hand it really is because pro circers are constantly having to defend their position. If it's not said openly, it's inferred that we as parents have no objection to inflicting pain on our babies and I find that to be highly insulting.
Caro, If I meant you, I would have said you. You have again taken offence where none was meant.
I am out of this thread un less someone pulls me back into it by replying to me personally.
The only thing i have disagreed with is that babies are put through so much pain while being circumcised as i know Jesse was not in any pain. I know that because i was there.:
I have in every one of my posts maintained that it is personal decision and that no one is wrong with what they choose to do, yet you even found a way to corrected me when i said there was more people than i (personally) thought there would be, responding saying their sons were done?
I dunno.. ive said my peace and ive had enough of the bickering.. theres more important things in life.. ooow like 7th Heaven.. gotta go! :)
Natalie, exactly right..: