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thread: To snip or not to snip..?

  1. #73
    slyder Guest

    they were told to use their own urine (which is sterile) to wash their penis and get all the sand etc. out/off.
    That's pretty bizarre. Yes, it's sterile when it comes out, but it wouldn't take long to attract a hell of a lot of bacteria outside the body. We all know what dry pee smells like. I really can't imagine who devised that little gem.

    Personally, I don't see the point in the whole operation. If it needs to be done medically, without a doubt do it. But we don't go about removing other body parts on the off chance they may have something go wrong with them.

    This is probably too much information, but as an u/c male, I know when the skin is back and the glans are rubbing against underwear or whatever, it is bloody uncomfortable. So I assume to tolerate it forever, a certain level of desensitisation occurs.

  2. #74

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    Circumcision: back on the table

    by Peter Lavelle

    After decades of being out of fashion, male circumcision is becoming more popular, after reports of its long-term health benefits.

    Published 31/01/2008


    If you could go back in time and could roam the African savanna a million years ago, you'd soon spot the hominids – the ancestors of modern-day humans. They'd be the ones standing up.

    You'd also notice that just like the other animals, the pre-humans were stark naked. Not only that, none of the males were circumcised.

    In those days, a foreskin was important to a man and conferred an evolutionary advantage. It protected the tip of his penis – the exposed glans penis – from dust, sand, insects, and infections.

    But it wasn't long before humans invented clothing, which gave comfort, safety and protection from the elements. The genitals were hidden away in stone-age versions of budgie smugglers.

    So much for the foreskin – it wasn't needed. Worse than that, it was actually a liability. Trapped inside clothes, themselves often dirty and sweaty, it became unhygienic. The fashion – especially in people living in hot places like Australia, the Pacific Islands, the Middle East, Indonesia, and the Americas – was to remove it.

    The practice of removing the foreskin, called circumcision, is now the most frequently performed surgical procedure in the world, says Brian Morris, Professor of Molecular Medical Sciences at the University of Sydney, writing in the journal BioEssays.

    The mucosa (the inner lining) of the foreskin is very thin, and doesn't have the defences against injury and infection that normal skin does, he says. A whitish residue of dead cells and other material, called 'smegma', collects under the foreskin and this attracts bacteria and other microorganisms.

    So statistically, men who haven't been circumcised are more prone to a wide range of infectious diseases, ranging from thrush, to human papilloma virus, syphilis, HIV, and urinary tract infections. And their female partners are much more likely to get genital herpes, chlamydia, pelvic inflammatory disease and infertility.

    Rates of cancer of the penis and prostate are higher in men who have intact foreskins, and rates of cancer of the cervix are higher in their female partners.

    A range of other conditions of the penis are more frequent, including inflammatory conditions of the skin, and phimosis, a narrowing of the opening the foreskin that prevents it being retracted and makes sex painful.

    There's a one-in-three chance of an uncircumcised man developing one or more of these conditions over his lifetime, says Morris.

    That's why circumcision is routine in infant boys in cultures all over the world (Hispanics, Europeans and Asians being a notable exception).

    As with any surgical procedure there are risks. In one in 500 circumcisions there's some minor bleeding and in about 1 in 1000, the circumcision needs to be redone. Complications are fewest when it's done between birth and 4 months (though it can be done at any age). Serious complications requiring hospitalisation are rare. Mutilation or loss of the penis, and death, are practically unheard of if the surgeon is competent, says Morris. But the benefits of circumcision far outweigh the risks, he argues.
    Falling rates of circumcision

    Nevertheless, rates of circumcision have fallen in many Western countries, especially the UK and Australia. In the US, around 60 per cent of boys are circumcised.

    Australia's circumcision rates reached much higher levels in the 1950s and 1960s, but began to fall away in the 1970s.

    In the 1970s a belief emerged that circumcision was traumatic for the child. It was painful for the child (anaesthetic wasn't routinely used in the 1970s) and the belief then (since discounted) was that it interfered with the parents bonding with the child. Circumcision rates fell to about 10 per cent in the 1980s.

    It's risen since then, driven by more widespread awareness of the benefits in preventing HIV and cervical cancer; today about 15 per cent, on average, of Australia male infants are circumcised at birth.
    The anti-circumcision lobby

    But despite the volume of scientific evidence of its benefits and its increasing (but slow) reacceptance, there's still strong resistance to circumcision from lobby groups, and even from some sections of the health professions.

    Anti-circumcision groups argue that it meddles with nature; and that the penis is more sensitive and sex is more pleasurable if the foreskin is left intact. Circumcision is traumatic, they say – it's a form of mutilation and children aren't able to give consent to it. As adults, men may regret having it, they argue.

    There's no scientific evidence for any of this, says Morris. Studies have shown for example that sex isn't any less pleasurable or the penis any less sensitive in circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men. Most women prefer a circumcised penis for appearance and hygiene.

    But the lobbyists have had an effect on the medical profession and the perceptions of the wider community, he says. Doctors' groups such as the AMA, and the Paediatrics & Child Health Division of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians, are equivocal at best about it, recommending it only when the child has a medical condition obviously requiring it (a child with phimosis, for example), but not actively encouraging it as a routine elective procedure (although the Royal Australasian College of Physicians is currently revising its position).

    State government health departments have followed suit. Public hospitals in all states except Queensland no longer offer elective circumcision for infants. What this means is that parents have to find a surgeon and have it done in a private hospital or circumcision clinic, at a cost of several hundred dollars (which makes it too expensive for many financially disadvantaged parents).
    Parents' choice

    Like childhood vaccination, circumcision is an emotional, polarising issue. But parents aren't getting enough genuine information based on science to enable them to make a rational choice; when they do, studies indicate they're more likely to opt for circumcision.

    Who knows, perhaps in another million years, circumcision won't be necessary. A visitor to the future might find the foreskin has disappeared in the human male, dispensed with by natural selection. Until then, parents will have to become more proactive to protect their sons' future health.
    Circumcision: back on the table - Health & Wellbeing
    Male circumcision halves HIV risk

    Thursday, 14 December 2006 Will Dunham
    Reuters

    Experts say the reduced HIV risk may be because cells on the inside of the foreskin, the part of the penis cut off in circumcision, are particularly susceptible to HIV infection

    Circumcising men cuts their risk of being infected with HIV in half, and could prevent hundreds of thousands or even millions of new infections, researchers say.

    Circumcising men worked so well that the researchers stopped two large clinical trials in Kenya and Uganda to announce the results, although they caution that the procedure does not make men immune to the virus.

    Public health leaders hailed the results as pointing to a potentially powerful way to reduce HIV infections in Africa, the continent hardest hit by AIDS.

    "It does have the potential to prevent many tens of thousands, many hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of infections over coming years," says Dr Kevin De ****, director of the World Health Organization's Department of HIV/AIDS.

    The US National Institutes of Health (NIH) study in Kisumu, Kenya, involving 2784 men aged 18 to 24 showed a 53% reduction of HIV infections in circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men.

    A parallel study involving 4996 men aged 15 to 49 in Rakai, Uganda, showed circumcised men were 48% less likely than uncircumcised men to become infected.

    Researchers previously noticed that in places where circumcision is common, HIV is less common.

    Results of the first major study on the issue were reported last year out of South Africa, with researchers seeing a 60% reduction in HIV risk for circumcised men. Researchers view the results of the new trial as strong confirmation.

    Dr Anthony Fauci, director of the NIH's National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases says the institute ended both trials early and offered circumcision to all men involved in them. The trials began in 2005 and were due to go until mid-2007.

    HIV prevention

    "These results indicate that adult male circumcision could be an important addition to an HIV prevention strategy for men. Male circumcision can lower both an individual's risk of infection and hopefully the rate of HIV spread through the community," Fauci says.

    Experts say the prevalence of male circumcision varies by region in African countries south of the Sahara, with large numbers of men in some areas remaining uncircumcised.

    Fauci says while the initial circumcision benefits would be fewer HIV infections in men, the practice could lead to fewer women getting infected in parts of the world like Africa where the virus is passed largely through sex between a man and woman, not homosexual sex.

    Another study is under way in Uganda assessing HIV infection risk for women with circumcised partners.

    Experts say the reduced HIV risk may be because cells on the inside of the foreskin, the part of the penis cut off in circumcision, are particularly susceptible to HIV infection.

    HIV also may survive better in a warm, wet environment like that found beneath a foreskin.

    Circumcision just part of the story

    Fauci says circumcision is not completely protective "and must be seen as a powerful addition to, not a replacement for, other HIV prevention methods".

    He says the benefits could be negated by small decreases in condom use by men or if men add more sexual partners.

    "These results only apply to men where the risk of HIV transmission is through the penis. Transmission by injection drug use or receptive anal intercourse will not be affected by adult male circumcision," Fauci adds.

    De **** says public health experts might encounter cultural and social barriers in parts of Africa to male circumcision.

    Of the 39.5 million people worldwide infected with the human immunodeficiency virus, 24.7 million are in sub-Saharan Africa. About 25 million people have died from AIDS since it was first identified a quarter century ago.
    Male circumcision halves HIV risk (ABC News in Science)
    I don't really think that there is a parallel between the amputation of a useful limb like a leg and the removal of a little bit of skin.

  3. #75
    Registered User

    Oct 2006
    Sydney NSW
    4,837

    Bec, DH was in the Australian army- they were on exercises in both NT and NSW I can get exact places when he comes home. He went without showers for weeks, they had no extra water and many guys did get infections- again I will ask him for exact details when he gets home.
    WRT submarines they can be at sea for months and wearing the same mucky overalls- again no showers etc lead to infections.

  4. #76

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    Personally, I don't see the point in the whole operation. If it needs to be done medically, without a doubt do it. But we don't go about removing other body parts on the off chance they may have something go wrong with them.
    Lots of people choose to get their appendixes removed before long postings in very remote places.....

  5. #77
    slyder Guest

    Lots of people choose to get their appendixes removed before long postings in very remote places.....
    True, and submariners have their wisdom teeth out prior to 'going down' too, I think.

  6. #78
    BellasBub Guest

    Such facsinating reading - but even with all the valid arguments for and against, I still come back to one simple thing - I'm making this choice for another being whom I believe has the right to make this choice for himself... May sound silly but I don't want him to turn around to me years down the track and say he wishes it had never been done (there are guys out there that feel this way).

    I couldn't make a decision based on the assumption that my son either wouldn't or wouldn't have the facilities to keep himself clean.

    Ultimately for me men are born with foreskins so why stuff with nature???

    I'm leaning toward not wanting it done but I do still understand the reasons FOR.

    Thanks guys for sharing with someone who knows little about them

  7. #79
    BellasBub Guest

    Forgive the spelling - it's seems since becoming pregnant my brain has left the building

  8. #80
    Registered User

    May 2008
    Newcastle, NSW
    33

    Greg deep sleep is the most common response to medical shock in newborns.

    I'll bow out now. Really if you choose to amputate part of your child's body the only person you will need to answer to is them.
    Well... If anyone reads my account (in another thread), they'll see bub was breastfed, happy, and asleep just prior to going into surgery - and the same when he came out. He cried his little "Hey, I'm complaining over here..." cry (his half-hearted, cry with eyes shut) as he always does when his clothes/nappy are removed. (Nurse said most babies cry when their clothes are removed - which all three of our boys did when their nappy was taken off.) But anyway...

    He screamed a bit from the needle/s (local anesthetic) which of course would be no more painful than any of us having a needle, seeing we're both human - and from his legs being held still. (He cried more at his legs being held, than the needle, or anything else that day.) Once the nurse stopped holding his legs, he quickly and happily gurgled himself back to sleep again. Cried in the car a short time later. (Perhaps from anesthetic wearing off, or perhaps his usual pain in his belly he often gets.) Breastfed a little again, burped, and back to sleep for three or four hours... Then up for another feed, etc.

    In other words - not much different to any other day. For a couple of days he seemed slightly less comfortable, but this could have just been us projecting that onto him, due to knowing he'd been circumcised.

    What he'll say to us later... I think it was one of the few things my parents did do that I'm happy about.

    Plus, as I mentioned elsewhere, doctors and drug companies will soon be loudly promoting Guardasil vaccine for both girls AND boys to (supposedly) prevent cervical cancer. Wondering why BOYS need a cervical cancer vaccine? Well, they also claim nearly all cases of cervical cancer can be traced to HPV - and stats show that *uncircumcised men* have higher rates of HPV. Yet while many doctors promote an invasive, UNTESTED vaccine - that is maiming and KILLING thousands of girls worldwide - they simultaneously criticise something as routine as circumcision (which is far less dangerous than the Gardasil vaccine currently is) to reduce male HPV!?

    Am I too cynical to suggest the only real difference here could be that government funding for circumcision has been removed - whereas for vaccines it remains?

  9. #81
    slyder Guest

    Well, they also claim nearly all cases of cervical cancer can be traced to HPV - and stats show that *uncircumcised men* have higher rates of HPV. Yet while many doctors promote an invasive, UNTESTED vaccine - that is maiming and KILLING thousands of girls worldwide
    This has been said before. It's incorrect:

    1 - About 1/3 (from memory) of cervical cancer cases are linked to HPV.

    2 - Gardasil is not maiming or killing thousands, hundreds or even tens. Find me one peer refereed study and/or investigation which supports that assertion. There have been claims that the vaccine has caused various reactions in its recipients, which may well be the case, but it is not killing thousands of recipients. I don't know where this story started, but it is false.

    Given that this is a public forum, such unproven assertions are not something that I am comfortable with.

  10. #82
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    Radelaide
    9

    Congrats on the upcoming birth Dane!

    Our first baby is due on the 11th of August (I'm Lozza's other half), and we've decided that if it's a boy, he'll be getting the snip, via the plastibell procedure.

    Helmets vs. Skivvies will always be a issue of contention, because it's either black or white. You can't take off half the foreskin, they either get the snip, or they don't.

    Me, I'm a helmet. That's one of the reasons why our boy will be getting done. My dad is a helmet, and my grandpa was a helmet. There's no religious reasons why we're getting it done, we getting it done because it's our choice to do. Until the child is old enough to get a job and leave home, we'll continue to decide what's right for our kids.

    Another reason why I want it done, is for health reasons. Now, I'm certain there's a few blokes and chicks reading this right now thinking I'm a knob (pun intended ), but I've heard a few stories, and had first hand experiences with mates who have had to have the snip later on in life, and they ALL said they wish they were circumcised at birth. I'll leave it at that.

    I don't remember getting circumcised, it hasn't emotionally or psychologically affected my life at all, and for those discussing the pros and cons of a sex life without a foreskin, well, all I can say on that is that mine has been fine. And hey, the wife doesn't complain, and she's the only one that I have to impress these days

    There's plenty of sites out there that are for and against circumcision, so read them all, then make an educated decision once you have all the information.

  11. #83
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    Radelaide
    9

    True, and submariners have their wisdom teeth out prior to 'going down' too, I think.
    Not true. I was in the RAN for 12 years, and did plenty of time on subs. The Navy would 'prefer' that your wisdom teeth were removed, but if they're fine, then it's your choice to keep them.

    And yes, plenty of guys on subs with skivvies got a varying range of infections at some stage or other.

  12. #84
    Registered User

    May 2008
    Newcastle, NSW
    33

    This has been said before. It's incorrect:

    1 - About 1/3 (from memory) of cervical cancer cases are linked to HPV.

    2 - Gardasil is not maiming or killing thousands, hundreds or even tens. Find me one peer refereed study and/or investigation which supports that assertion. There have been claims that the vaccine has caused various reactions in its recipients, which may well be the case, but it is not killing thousands of recipients. I don't know where this story started, but it is false.

    Given that this is a public forum, such unproven assertions are not something that I am comfortable with.
    Oh - I never said it was necessarily correct - just that the claim is often MADE (it was on TV again just a week ago - an ABC I think). And since they also claim elsewhere that more uncircumcised men get HPV... Well, you get the idea. Just the constant contradictions and misinformation we have to deal with!

    As for Guardasil... You probably know there is no such study, as the only ones with such funding available are vaccine manufacturers themselves. And yes, I know it sounds "big brother" but how can the parents of the damaged children all be ignored, and all faith placed in multi-national, billion-dollar manufacturers who rush vaccines into distribution without adequate testing?

    There ARE thousands of examples (over 8000 currently) of fainting, muscle debilitation, comas, death - and these are only the cases that get reported... (I didn't say it was killing thousands. I said killing and MAIMING thousands. The typed word can seem to say one thing, but mean another at times.) They admit negative reactions to vaccines (in general) are more like 10 times the reported figure. Yet the manufacturer is giving a quick glance to a few of these reactions and stating they are merely coincidence and not linked to Guardasil. (Despite many of the reactions being similar and occurring directly after administering Gardasil.)

    I'm subscribed to a vaccination newsgroup so am not going to list all of that data here of course. But there *is* plenty of documentation available online for those interested. I'm more than a little shocked people would be so quick to discount the experiences of those affected.
    Last edited by GregMonarche; July 15th, 2008 at 02:13 PM.

  13. #85
    slyder Guest

    Not true. I was in the RAN for 12 years, and did plenty of time on subs. The Navy would 'prefer' that your wisdom teeth were removed, but if they're fine, then it's your choice to keep them.

    And yes, plenty of guys on subs with skivvies got a varying range of infections at some stage or other.
    Fair enough Damo. I was only going on what an ex-submariner had told me, but I wasn't sure...

  14. #86
    slyder Guest

    Greg, I accept your differing opinion. But as a moderator I say let's stay on the topic of circumcision. The Gardasil thing is a whole 'nother story!

  15. #87
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber
    Add Schmickers on Facebook

    Jan 2006
    Port Macquarie, NSW
    1,443


    Both have negatives.
    Both have positives.

    There is slightly more POSSIBLE benefit on the pro side. As none of us can prove or disprove those benefits, it is merely a matter of choice. Pseudo-facts won't change that.
    I'm unsure if, when you posted this, you were referring only to the effects on sexual functioning, or on the pros and cons of circumcision as a whole, but looking at the big picture, and based on current research, there are far more negatives than positives to routine circumcision of the newborn.

  16. #88
    Registered User

    Jul 2005
    Rural NSW
    6,975

    I've been thinking a lot about this thread. As I mentioned earlier, neither of my boys are circumcised. My eldest may have to be cut if his phimosis doesn't improve.

    Regarding the hygiene issue and potential for infection. This could sway me however when you look at the big picture... including present day situations like remote warfare etc and infection through the ages... this doesn't seem to be a huge issue. Does anyone know if British colonies performed circumcisions before embarking on long haul shipping journeys to far flung countries in fetid and overcrowded conditions? Is infection rampant amongst the homeless? What are the chances really of my sons having to endure these extreme conditions? Why did nature see it necessary to provide a foreskin if it was so potentially harmful? Do gorillas get infected? I assume they have foreskins? Do they know how to clean themselves? (yeah I know, vaguely humerous imagery LOL)

    So, I guess after further mulling I'm still a fan of letting nature dictate how things are... unless something goes seriously wrong as it might be with the phimosis.

  17. #89
    Registered User
    Add ~clover~ on Facebook

    Sep 2007
    travelling
    9,557

    OMG Bath. I think I'm gonna have nightmares with gorillas in them!!


    I just don't see the point. Sure it MIGHT be of help later on. But who knows. I'm sure there are alot of circumsised men out there that get diseases & infections too. & who says it will help for sure? Of all the babies circumsised, how many do you really think would have to have it done later due to infections? How do you know you are helping the baby in the long term?

    Cleanliness is not an issue. As babies you don't touch it. A soak in the bath is enough to keep it clean. When it comes time to pull the foreskin back, boys usually work it out for themselves & from what I've seen & heard, every chance they get they are playing with it, so I am a firm believer that it'll be pretty easy to get them to clean it. Since it's pretty much another excuse to play with it!

    They are obviously born with it for a reason.

    Just out of curiosity... With all the talk about it desensitising, I wonder if there is a difference in premature ejaculaters between circ. & uncirc?? It'd be an interesting study I think?

  18. #90
    Registered User

    Feb 2008
    Adelaide, SOUTH AUSTRALIA
    784

    Smile

    Ohhh it's certainly a hard descion to make and don't let anyone sway you.
    My Ob is Dr Watson in Adelaide and we had a rather lengthy discussion on wether or not to have our fisrt son done. I'm glad we did, the reasons we chose to were:
    Dad was done.
    Varios family members were done due to horrible infections one of them was 45 years old.
    Family member got a stone stuck under his truely horrible.
    A friend of ours tore his during intercourse and had to be done.
    Easier for our son to wash it himself.

    We decided to have it done in the first few days, at first I was worried we'd done the wrong thing but with a 3 year old who has to wash everything himself I'm so glad we did.

    Dr Watson advised us that the main reason for boys being done today is that dads done, and we will be seeing him in october when son #2 arrives. We wer'e very impressed with the job he did and it was very neat, compared to friends of ours who went through the public system with her sons. I asked her to look at it to make sure it was ok, typical first time mum of a boy. Our friend was truely impressed at how neat it was, I would highly recommend him to you.

    Hope this helps,
    Best of luck with your decision!
    Snoopea

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