animal products, dairy and eggs and such

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

Christy, my thinking is that if soy can increase the risk of cancer worsening, then it can't be good for anyone. Because of the huge invested commercial interest, I doubt that we're getting all the information.

tsgirl, I remember the fish thing from when I was preg, and I wouldn't eat swordfish (some species are threatened) or shark.

snugglybean, I don't think it's fair to tell people they should feel guilty for eating fish, animal products or anything else for that matter. If I choose not to eat something for moral reasons, it's *my* choice. Our society is set up in such a way that eating animals and animal products is acceptable and telling people they should feel bad for that is counter-productive. It would be much better to try to improve the conditions of the animals themselves (such as cage hens and live animal exports) rather than pushing your opinions onto others. No one likes that, it just alienates people.

On a similar note, I randomly became a raw vegan I feel so much healthier after having stopped eating meat, I decided to go full-throttle for a couple of months. I used to be a vegan and now that I can cook and prepare food, it seems the perfect time to start up again. I started yesterday and so far it's really good and not as limiting as you might think. I bought some steel-cut oats which I soak in warm water rather than cook and add fresh fruit to, and the rest of the day is salads and such. Good stuff. Though i'm eating more than 2 serves of fruit, which is fine since that's my only vsource of sugar (apart from what's naturally occuring in vegies and nuts).

[krysalyss]

my thinking is that if soy can increase the risk of cancer worsening, then it can't be good for anyone.

The study is really looking at basically overdosing yourself on soy (eg. soy supplements) not in normal dietary amounts. Soy in normal amounts can be very beneficial. In fact the phytooestrogens themselves are thought to help protect against some cancers such as prostate, breast and bowel. So in itself, soy is not a carcinogen. Most foods in excess can be dangerous for example large amount of red meat can increase your risk of bowel cancer.

I don't personally think what Snugglybean said is offensive, especially considering your original post about fish being stupid which I do find offensive. I have no wish to get into a debate about the eating of meat but am supportive of considerate discussion about it.

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

I apologize for offending anyone about saying fish are stupid, though I don't really see how it's even debatable. Their brains exist solely to deal with sensory imput, hormonal balance, maintaining circadium rhythms, and controlling voluntary and involuntary physical movement. They do not "think" or "feel" like other animals. What I do find offensive is telling other people they should change their lifestyle to comply with someone elses moral judgement.

What I've read about soy is that the enzymes change properties when they're cooked and the human body can no longer process them properly. I doubt that small amounts of soy would do any harm but I wouldn't use it to meet all of my calcium requirements for example. The old "A glass of milk, tub of yogurt, slice of cheese" is too much in my book. It's possible that there isn't a risk but if soy is dangerous, we wouldn't know about it for another few decades.

[krysalyss]

They do not "think" or "feel" like other animals.

I am sure I don't at all know what you mean. Fish do think and feel. Additionally, they exhibit the exact same stress hormones as other animals when feeling pain and discomfort (including capture) and it has been measured time and again in scientific studies. They make the same daily choices that other animals make about their own survival including prey and predator interactions, social dominance hierarchies, avoidance of pain or death, foraging/hunting for food. Thinking fish are stupid is just something that people choose to do because they want to justify eating fish. Some further reading from recent scientific journals for those who are open to it:

Catch and release fish learn to avoid the hooks of anglers:
Askey et al (2006) Linking angling catch rates and fish learning under catch-and-release regulations, North American Journal of Fisheries Management 26(4) 1020-1029

Sub-ordinate fish in social groups steal food from dominant fish by using previous learning, expectancy of reward, and behavioural and learning plasticity
Hollis et al. (2004) Novel strategies of subordinate fish competing for food: learning when to fold, Animal Behaviour 68(5) 1155-1164

Fish are found to feel stress, pain and fear and their welfare should be considered especially for aquafarming application
Chandaroo et al. (2004) Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress, Applied Animal Behaviour Science 86(3-4) 225-250

[haleyscomet]

I think with extra avacado you will be right . I LOVE avacado and use it as a spread instead of butter or mayo etc. It is WONDERFUL!

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

I am sure I don't at all know what you mean. Fish do think and feel. Additionally, they exhibit the exact same stress hormones as other animals when feeling pain and discomfort (including capture) and it has been measured time and again in scientific studies. They make the same daily choices that other animals make about their own survival including prey and predator interactions, social dominance hierarchies, avoidance of pain or death, foraging/hunting for food. Thinking fish are stupid is just something that people choose to do because they want to justify eating fish. Some further reading from recent scientific journals for those who are open to it:

Catch and release fish learn to avoid the hooks of anglers:
Askey et al (2006) Linking angling catch rates and fish learning under catch-and-release regulations, North American Journal of Fisheries Management 26(4) 1020-1029

Sub-ordinate fish in social groups steal food from dominant fish by using previous learning, expectancy of reward, and behavioural and learning plasticity
Hollis et al. (2004) Novel strategies of subordinate fish competing for food: learning when to fold, Animal Behaviour 68(5) 1155-1164

Fish are found to feel stress, pain and fear and their welfare should be considered especially for aquafarming application
Chandaroo et al. (2004) Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress, Applied Animal Behaviour Science 86(3-4) 225-250

But none of those involve thinking or feeling *emotions* (I should have pointed out that I meant emotionally, not physically). It's entirely possible that fish do feel pain, since they have a brain and a nervous system, but they don't make decisions about anything, they operate on instinct alone. Those quotes don't have any links attached to them so I can't be convinced.

Anyway . . .

I LOVE avocado, I eat one a day. I don't know if that's good or not I've lost heaps of weight doing this too, 3kg already!

[krysalyss]

Sorry but I cant copyright entire journal articles due to copyright. They are references not links.But I wont argue anymore as I believe that learning and adapting are evidence of making decisions, and that the evidence does point to fish feeling stress and fear - both of which are emotional and physiological. This has been found using the same hormonal evidence that is used for any other animal. Look I am not saying dont eat fish. But using excuses that have been scientifically disproved leads other people to get the wrong opinion. Animal behaviour, stress and welfare is my field so I am not just an overemotive person trying to humanise an animal. There are facts and there are myths. And I was pointing out scientific fact.

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

It's also scientific fact, if you look at the construct of the brain of fish, that there is no centre for emotion or thought.