NSW to fund weight loss surgery

[Macca79]

I just want to begin by saying it is not my intention to start anything the following is simply my own observations as a teacher and my personal opinions.

I can't speak for High School but as a teacher in a primary school in the NT we have two hours a week compulsory PE a week and have had for a long time but I can tell you this is not helping with childhood obesity. Too often I see a child do an hour of active sport to only watch them open a lunch box from home filled with lots of little packets of tiny teddies, roll ups, chips, chicken shapes etc. Once lunch from home was a sandwich and a piece of fruit. these days it seems to me that even the simple piece of fruit has been replaced with something processed. Last year I did a 10 week unit of work on nutrition with my 5/6/7 class and was amazed when kids had to ask me if what they had was healthy. They honestly didn't know. I would ask though how much is school responsibility and how much is parental?

On Lap banding...Im obese and looking at having surgery. Why? Because I feel it is for me. If a person has this done under the public system why deny them. I am not a nurse or doc but do we deny a person who has cancer from smoking treatment or even a person who has an STD from not practicing safe sex? At the end of the day if we can make a healthier society I say lets do it. anything to get the message out there that a healthy life is the best way to go.

And as for the rise in obesity I think we have to look at our society. If so many people are becoming obese it is more then just having a few too many whoppers and cokes!

[*Efjay*]

There would have to be a very strict policy as to who is accepted into this programme. It would have to only be for people who have tried everything & are on the brink of death if nothing is done. Like those stories you see on Foxtel.

I look at most people around these days who are overweight & yes Obese but I rarely see a person who I think would need to be a part of this programme. The reason for that would be these people would be house bound.
Sure there are plenty of fat people around who could use the help but this isn't the anwser. Healthy eating, exercise & an active life will see the majority of people back to a healthy weight.

Im not over weight, never have been so I wont pretend I know what its like to diet etc & fail. But my mum is overweight & I have watched her all my life wonder why she can't shed the kilo's. I know why & I'm sure deep down Mum knows why also. Let just say she didn't say No to the offering of birthday cake on the weekend.

I look at people on the biggest looser, especially that guy thats now doing ad's for diabetes Australia. THat guy was FAT, Yet he lost the weight & looks fantastic. He had alot against him, yet he still managed & has turned his life around.


at the end of the day I don't think my tax dollars should be spent on people who just can't stick to a diet or a healthy life style.

[C~Q]

I would ask though how much is school responsibility and how much is parental? !

I totally agree that it is parental responsibility but by teaching the children at school you can be sure that you are passing on correct information and educating the parents of the future.

[/QUOTE] I am not a nurse or doc but do we deny a person who has cancer from smoking treatment or even a person who has an STD from not practicing safe sex? [/QUOTE]


I know i'm going to get lynched for saying this but I believe that if someone is being treated for lung cancer and they smoke or is waiting for a new liver and is still drinking alcohol then they don't deserve the money/time that is spent/wasted on them. In reality I know there is no way of monitering this but deep down it is the way I feel. I am not comparing this in any way to Obesity, mearly responding to the earlier comparison.

I do believe however that it is similar to the treatment that can make an addict become clean without going through withdrawels. An addict has to go through the agony of withdrawel to stop themselves from doing it again. If there is no pain and suffering then what's to stop them getting high again? I think lap band surgery is similar. If the problem that made these people over-eat isn't cured then surgery isn't going to cure it. If you have lost weight by making life changing decisions about healthy eating and exercise then you are far less likely to put it back on again. If you can look back at the hard work and sweat that it took to lose weight then how much more proud of yourself will you be and how much less likely to do it all again?

[sushee]

I think as well, that the idea that weight loss surgery, is somehow an 'magic cure-all' from years of eating badly is a bit misleading. As if you say, eat drink and do whatever you like, then if you get fat, we'll slap a lapband on you is simply not true. You have to have shown a history of trying other weight loss methods. You have to show that you have or will potentially have co-morbidities from your obesity. You have to show a commitment to changing your life. The band will always only be a tool to help you change your lifestyle. It is not a magic bullet.

It makes sense already for health funds to cover the cost of much of lapbanding surgery simply because they recognise that as a generally sound and permanent solution to obesity - it can save the fund much more money in the long term from having to pay out on obesity-related health problems. It's a financial trade off they've weighed up and have since concluded that it's worth the initial cost to prevent long term payouts. If the NSW govt have come to the same conclusion, I'm not surprised. Yes I believe education is incredibly important, and more money should be spent on it, and on making good food available and affordable, but today's obese memebrs of society need help now, and as a simple financial trade off, I can see why the state govt would think it's that initial preventative cost is a sound investment.

I do believe it should not be at the expense of money spent on education though. None of my children are obese, and in part, despite my own weight, I feel I tried to make good choices for them when they were growing up. Education starts with parents, and parents should see an investment in their own education as to how best to feed their families. But I don't see why we can't have both.

Currently, if you cannot afford private health insurance, you're in the most 'no-win' section of society, because the waiting list for wls is something like 10 years in some states (yes it can be done publicly even now). So yes, help is out there, but yes, again, because you're on a lower socio-economic rung, you don't get the kind of health care someone more affluent s getting. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think there should remain strict screening measures. I think wls should not be used willy-nilly. But I do think there is a case for it to be publicly funded.

I'd rather we funded the prevention of obesity-related problems, than fund the costs of treating those same issues later in the patients' lives.

[sushee]

And just in response to something you mentioned, FJ about patients being close to death before they should qualify. The lapband is actually a far better tool for someone who has shown an inability to lose weight themselves, but who is otherwise not yet as affected by their health issues. That is to say, if someone is near death, the lapband is probably going to be too late to help them.

My brother has severe type 2 diabetes and could be helped immensely by a lapband. His doctors believe his days are numbered but he still eats more than he should. If it were as simple as 'not having another piece of cake', I'm sure he wouldn't be in this situation. It is not something someone who has never struggled with their weight would understand.

He cannot get a lapband at the moment until his diabetes is under more control than it is now, which obliges him to eat less, which he struggles with. Yet had he had this surgery BEFORE his diabetes got so out of control, he wouldn't be facing a bleak future now. He's only 36 years old too.

This is why, despite the fact I don't have diabetes, I have had lapband surgery. Because it's a preventative measure against a disease that has affected 80% of my family on my mother's side. If I didn't have private health cover, I can just about promise you that all of you would be funding my diabetes medication for the rest of my life in the near future. I know which path I would prefer, so I took it, and I feel like I will be less of a burden to society in the long term as a result of it.

[*Efjay*]

And just in response to something you mentioned, FJ about patients being close to death before they should qualify. The lapband is actually a far better tool for someone who has shown an inability to lose weight themselves, but who is otherwise not yet as affected by their health issues. That is to say, if someone is near death, the lapband is probably going to be too late to help them.

You have actually cleared up what I was trying to say. I meant, thatit shoul dbe last resort, tried everything, surgery is the last chance KIWM?
So I do agree with what you have said.

[Macca79]

Why do people seem to think that people choose to be overweight? That is just like saying that someone who is anorexic chooses to be underweight. For many people who are obese (please note that there is a major difference between being overweight and being obese) there are many factors that prevent them from loosing weight. Things such as trauma, history of abuse, stress, poor self image are just some of the factors that contribute to the mind set that can lead to obesity. My SIL is obese and became so after a rape as a teenager. She found over eating and being fat a form of protection. It took a Lap Band and several years with a psychologist to help her feel that she could be 'safe' as a thin person. While this is an extreme case I mention it so that next time you see an obese person reaching for a piece of cake just stop and think that it could be more then just another person over indulging. If all it took was a few workouts and a salad we would not have such an epidemic on our hands.

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

know i'm going to get lynched for saying this but I believe that if someone is being treated for lung cancer and they smoke or is waiting for a new liver and is still drinking alcohol then they don't deserve the money/time that is spent/wasted on them. In reality I know there is no way of monitering this but deep down it is the way I feel. I am not comparing this in any way to Obesity, mearly responding to the earlier comparison.

I know this is off-topic here but my grandfather died from emphysema and the idea that smokers shouldn't recieve treatment is just horrifying. If you've ever seen someone smoke themselves to death, you'll know that it's not simply a case of someone being too stupid or not caring about themselves to do something about it. It's an addiction as much as heroin is an addiction, and so is alcohol. Would you deny an eating disordered person medical treatment because they should just bloody eat/not throw up already? Would you deny an attempted suicide a stomach pump because it was their own fault? Would you deny an abusive victim treatment for broken bones because they should've already left hte relationship? That's ridiculous. OF COURSE people will make the best choices for themselves if they can but not everyone has that capacity. Just letting people die because they're having trouble coping with something is callous, cold-hearted and, i think, ignorant. We accept that people with eating disorders are ill, that suicidals are depressed, and yet addicts are just morons? As a society, we have a responsibility to take care of EVERYONE whether we understand them or not. A society is only as good as its lowest and no one should be left behind.

/end rant

[Macca79]

I totally agree with you baby socks. Glad I'm not the only one in this thread who thinks like this.

[katkins]

ok, from my point of view, it's a life saver, if i can get it. I am morbidly obese. I was abused as a child. the year the abuse started was when i gained weight. I have dieted since I was 8. I used to do exercise everyday, 3 times a day and was still overweight. I ate healthily, maybe not enough at that stage, but I was still "fat" and still teased.
When i moved in with dh, i had to dopt some of his eating habits, which are not as I was used to. So i gained weight. When i had my first child, i gained more. The next two kids, I did not gain anything much and lost it when i gave birth, but my weight has slowly been rising. I have 3 under4 and we can't afford to do lite n easy or have me eating diff from the rest of the family. I am so bad my asthma is getting bad and so is my arthritis which makes it hard and painful to do a lot of exercise. I want so much to lose weight. I try hard to eat well, but i just can't lose it. If i got the lap band and lost some weight, it would be easier and less painful to start doing more exercise. Maybe I can get back into my sports etc....eventually. It is merely a helping hand, not the complete answer, i think ppl need to remember that....

[C~Q]

I know this is off-topic here but my grandfather died from emphysema and the idea that smokers shouldn't recieve treatment is just horrifying. If you've ever seen someone smoke themselves to death, you'll know that it's not simply a case of someone being too stupid or not caring about themselves to do something about it. It's an addiction as much as heroin is an addiction, and so is alcohol. Would you deny an eating disordered person medical treatment because they should just bloody eat/not throw up already? Would you deny an attempted suicide a stomach pump because it was their own fault? Would you deny an abusive victim treatment for broken bones because they should've already left hte relationship? That's ridiculous. OF COURSE people will make the best choices for themselves if they can but not everyone has that capacity. Just letting people die because they're having trouble coping with something is callous, cold-hearted and, i think, ignorant. We accept that people with eating disorders are ill, that suicidals are depressed, and yet addicts are just morons? As a society, we have a responsibility to take care of EVERYONE whether we understand them or not. A society is only as good as its lowest and no one should be left behind.

/end rant

I understand why you are upset. As I said this is the way I feel deep down in a world where everything is black and white. I know this isn't the reality and it's a good thing. If everybody felt the way I did about certain topics then we would live in a seemingly uncaring world and thank god we don't. My Mums immediate family have all died from various forms of Cancer. Three of them were told early on to stop smoking if they wanted any hope of surviving their cancer. Only one of them did, the other 2 died within a few years. Because of this my Mum lost her Dad at 15 years old. Ii never got to meet him and I know that one of the things he could have done to prolong his life he never did. I know it's hard to beat addictions but people do it all the time. I have given up smoking as has my Dad after 40 years. My cousin was a heroin addict and he has clawed his way up to sobriety. It is their responsibility and theirs alone to think of others around them and do everything they can to be around and the sort of people their families need.

You are talking about 2 different things - mental illness and addiction. Addiction is a lot easier to cure. I was writing about people who are given help with addiction but choose to not comply. I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done.

You were talking about eating disorders and suicide attempts - they are mental illnesses and completely different to what I was talking about.

What I wrote was very blunt and I apologise if I upset you but I really strongly believe that people need to start taking responsibity for themselves.

[Macca79]

I think that unless you have experienced something first hand you don't know how hard it can be to deal with. You don't know how hard it can be to deal with cancer unless you have had it. Likewise unless you have been obese (not just 5 kg over weight) most of your life and have an addiction to food it you don't know hard it can be to stop, even though you want too (and that goes for any addiction). We can all take the high moral road and say 'Well it's your problem you deal with it' but as soon as we are the person with the problem what is the first thing we do? We reach out for help. I would like to think that if ever I reached out someone would be there to help me.

I throw into this pot the fact that I am obese, a mother, a former smoker and cancer survivor (ovarian). I thank the people who helped me out of the kindness of their hearts every day. Because of them I am alive to see my son grow up today.

Compassion is want we need in this world, not judgment.

[C~Q]

Ok this is a totally different topic that I am not commenting on anymore.

Back to the OP. I agree that over-eating is a eating disorder which I see as een more of a reason why the surgery won't change anything. Like I said before, the surgery won't cure the REASON that person was Obese.

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

I understand why you are upset. As I said this is the way I feel deep down in a world where everything is black and white. I know this isn't the reality and it's a good thing. If everybody felt the way I did about certain topics then we would live in a seemingly uncaring world and thank god we don't. My Mums immediate family have all died from various forms of Cancer. Three of them were told early on to stop smoking if they wanted any hope of surviving their cancer. Only one of them did, the other 2 died within a few years. Because of this my Mum lost her Dad at 15 years old. Ii never got to meet him and I know that one of the things he could have done to prolong his life he never did. I know it's hard to beat addictions but people do it all the time. I have given up smoking as has my Dad after 40 years. My cousin was a heroin addict and he has clawed his way up to sobriety. It is their responsibility and theirs alone to think of others around them and do everything they can to be around and the sort of people their families need.

You are talking about 2 different things - mental illness and addiction. Addiction is a lot easier to cure. I was writing about people who are given help with addiction but choose to not comply. I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done.

You were talking about eating disorders and suicide attempts - they are mental illnesses and completely different to what I was talking about.

What I wrote was very blunt and I apologise if I upset you but I really strongly believe that people need to start taking responsibity for themselves.

I don't agree that eating disorders and depression are completely different from addictions at all, there is in fact a huge overlap between them. One problem tends to lend itself to another. I have had personal, first hand experience with all three. I was suicidal and bulimic and hospitalized for years of my adolescence, I was a 2 pack a day smoker until I fell pregnant, I used both alcohol and illicit drugs in excessive quantities. Addictions don't happen for no reason. Perfectly happy, well-adjusted people don't suddenly decide to hit the bottle with great gusto. Of course people didn't know at first that cigarettes were addictive and life-threatening but these days when we have all this information, lighting a cigarette shows just as much disrespect for the self as alcohol or illicit drugs.

Not everyone can just stop these things because they have a light-bulb moment or because something changes in their life. For me, falling pregnant was the kick in the butt I needed to get my life together, but it's not like that for everyone.
When my grandfather was dying of emphysema, he would hold a lit cigarette next to him just to smell it, and not inhale. When we would comment on it, he'd say "but i'm not actually smoking it" . . . then he moved onto taking occasional drags (and denying that he was even though we saw him) and eventually, full-on smoking again just when his health was starting to slightly improve. The fact that he regularly would make late-night visits to the E.R. for an oxygen mask because he couldn't breathe wasn't enough to deter him (and if you've ever seen the look of fear in someones eyes as they're suffocating right in front of you, you'll know what i'm talking about), thats how addicted he was. He couldn't stop smoking to save his own life. He smoked until the day he died. You cannot tell me that THAT is a person who just didn't take responsibility for themselves. He was someone who could not stop, who did not have the ability to stop. Just because SOME people can doesn't mean EVERYONE can.

I'm guessing that we're going to be politely redirected to the topic at hand, so I'm not going to continue this topic either but I needed to put my 2 cents in on this.

[thepixie]

I certainly wasn?t suggesting that obese people should be denied treatment. Not at all. My point is that I don?t believe this is necessarily the right treatment.

Personally I feel much of the current hysteria over obesity is over-blown, counterproductive and based on misinformation. It adds to the problems of people who are overweight or obese by blaming them for their problems while threatening them with imminent death. Neither the blame nor the threat are necessarily based on reality. If we are all getting fatter and it?s killing us, why are we now living longer and healthier lives than ever before?

Most unhealthy obese people could improve their health profile by eating a healthy diet and being moderately active. Many already do and for most overweight or obese people ? particularly those without a history of diabetes, heart disease etc - this would bring their health risks in line with those of so-called normal weight people who have a similar diet and activity profile. But they wouldn?t necessarily lose enough weight to shed the ?obese? or ?overweight? tag. And in our society a lot of stigma and unfair judgment from others comes with those tags. I think this might be one reason why lots of people get discouraged from diet and exercise programs.

Addiction is a good analogy. I have written on another thread that I see this surgery as similar to cutting off a smoker?s fingers to help them give up. It might work (and it might not) but it will definitely create other effects on their life that may not be desirable. Having said that, I think there are definitely a small number of people out there who could be helped by it, and if you have done your research and decided that this is you, then all the very best to you. But it would bother me to see it used as a front-line public health measure.

It?s just my view, sorry for the slightly off-topic rant!

[sushee]

With regards to diabetes - my brother is trying to control his diabetes with diet and exercise. And yet studies are now revealing a surprising new effect of the lapband. It forces diabetes into remission in a significant percentage of patients studied. Not just controlled, but remission. It offers the possibility of a cure, not just management, for my brother, and others with Type 2 diabetes.

I sometimes think that a lot of the issues from the differing factions in society stems from this: there are those who see lapbanding as a medical measure, and there are those who believe it's largely cosmetic measure. Make no mistake - IT IS A MEDICAL MEASURE. But even here, those for and against seem to be talking from completely different perspectives.

And let's be fair, shall we? The lapband has in fact helped many people to successfully lose weight, not just a small proportion of those who have chosen the lapband. It is being looked at as a front-line defence against obesity-related health issues because in the 15 years it's been used in Australia, it's proven to be an effective, long-term solution.

And yes, it DOES stop overeating. You cannot phsycially eat more than a certain amount before your body rejects it. Erosion (as had happened to BG's parents) and a slipped band happens in about 1% of all patients - patients who actively work AGAINST their band by forcing themselves to eat and then vomit.

Also, in Dr Paul O'Brien's practice (Australian pioneer of the lapband), he estimates a 'failure' of the lapband as anyone who has not lost more than 25% of their excess weight in 2 years as well as anyone who has not returned for aftercare in that time. He quotes his statistics in his book, and this failure rate is small in his practice (either 5% or 15%, I can't recall).

So for anyone who is overweight, please please don't think of the lapband as a first resort. You'd be an idiot to not try diet and exercise first and foremost. But if a lifetime of diet and exercise has not worked, please don't give up on yourself. I got to the point where I felt like nothing would ever work, and yet, even then resisted a lapband for over 6 months, ever skeptical right to the end.

But I do believe this is going to work for me now. Even now I can't help feeling sometimes that I will eventually put all the weight back on - that's all I've known all my life, the certainty that the weight NEVER stays off. But this time, I have a tool that will be controlling my hunger and my portions, and I honestly believe it will make the difference in the end to getting it off and keeping it off.

It is a viable solution to obesity related health issues. As long as you go in having done your research and with eyes wide open, it IS an answer for many.

[Macca79]

Just want to add that this kind of surgery has an 80% success rate. That is a bit more then 'not curing anything' I would think.

[C~Q]

I said it wouldn't cure the reason they were Obese. You yourself wrote that Obesity was more to do with trauma and not just reaching for another piece of cake. So which is it? People seem to be switching their opinion.

So either they are Obese as a result of trauma in which case surgery isn't going to cure the REASON you are obese or they are obese because they over-eat and don't exercise in which case the surgery will be effective but only stay effective as long as the clients make positive, healthy lifestyle changes. To be honest it's not as black and white as that and i'm sure it's probably a mixture of the two and many, many other reasons.

I have never said that surgery wouldn't work. If you want to lose weight then i'm positive the surgery would make you lose weight but as many of people have posted the weight gain is caused by something that can't be fixed by surgery.