thread: Homeschooling Discussion & Experiences #1

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  1. #1
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    the world
    540

    I plan to homeschool DS. As an ex Primary and Secondary teacher, I have not found much in the school system (in both of the countries I have taught in) that makes me want to send him to school. I also don't see the point in me spending all day devoted to other people's kids while I could be doing the same with my own child at home!
    Here in the UK there are quite a few parents who homeschool and you can even unschool here. I am already a member of a localish homeschool group although I haven't taken DS to any of their meetups yet because he is still only small and I don't have a car to get there. However I am thinking of setting up my own in my town, so transport won't be an issue and more regular meetups will be possible.

    On a side note, someone mentioned how all the schoolwork can be done in three hours when homeschooling and I am not surprised. It probably would be the same in schools if the day wasn't taken up with so many interruptions and delays that occur because of behaviour management, crowd control and the general logistics of trying to cater for thirty little individuals and making sure they are where they should be at the right time and place! How many minutes are eaten up with lining up, getting them all to listen, making sure they are attentive, sitting down, looking the right way etc etc, handing out equipment, cleaning up afterwards etc? I am sure the actual learning and working time is only about three hours!!! LOL!

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,979

    Yeah exactly!! So much time is spent in schools with all that where the kids are waiting or lining up or like you said crowd control stuff happening.... I read for a child being educated at home at the age of 5-6 they only really require at the most 1hr of one-on-one attention with the parent and even then that is broken up into 15min intervals with mini breaks as kids this age still have short attention spans!! They are more productive if given more mini breaks I'm sure.

    So by 11am most days they could be finished and spending time chilling out or playing with their siblings (if they have them) or reading, playing outside, being KIDS!!

  3. #3
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    the world
    540


    So by 11am most days they could be finished and spending time chilling out or playing with their siblings (if they have them) or reading, playing outside, being KIDS!!
    And for all that read 'the real learning'!!! Being a kid, exploring their world around them, unstructured play etc etc! Active participants in their world instead of docile passive little fact reciters...oops you didn't want debate about the disadvantages of school or HS

  4. #4
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    "I am sure the actual learning and working time is only about three hours!!! LOL!"

    As a teacher - I disagree. I teach in 35-minute lesson slots, often doubles (so 70 mins). There are nine lessons in a day. Of those lessons, yes, some is admin (sorting out homework, settling into the classroom etc) but most is learning. Oh yes, and doing the admin bits is learning: learning about being a member of a group, socialising, finding your way in a new environment, checking work that has been done and seen without you there... you know, "the real learning". Even so, lessons taught today (4) - I would say that 25 mins of those 35 was subject-specific learning, the rest moving around/settling. And discussing work with peers is learning, both subject and "real".

    So 25 mins in 9 lessons - closer to four hours actively learning new stuff. Wow. That's a lot of new stuff. And can't be done in a spare hour in the morning.

    I would love to spend all day with my son and not send him to school. I'd love to teach him at home. But I know full well that school is the best place for him at the moment - he learns a lot better surrounded by his peers, where he can see what's expected of someone his age. He has no siblings with whom to playand his reading has come on so much more now he is at a school who are encouraging him with this - where would he learn if I did get to homeschool? He wouldn't read for me before he started this school, and I am not skilled to teach learning to read.

  5. #5
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    the world
    540

    "I am sure the actual learning and working time is only about three hours!!! LOL!"

    As a teacher - I disagree. I teach in 35-minute lesson slots, often doubles (so 70 mins). There are nine lessons in a day. Of those lessons, yes, some is admin (sorting out homework, settling into the classroom etc) but most is learning. Oh yes, and doing the admin bits is learning: learning about being a member of a group, socialising, finding your way in a new environment, checking work that has been done and seen without you there... you know, "the real learning". Even so, lessons taught today (4) - I would say that 25 mins of those 35 was subject-specific learning, the rest moving around/settling. And discussing work with peers is learning, both subject and "real".

    So 25 mins in 9 lessons - closer to four hours actively learning new stuff. Wow. That's a lot of new stuff. And can't be done in a spare hour in the morning.

    I would love to spend all day with my son and not send him to school. I'd love to teach him at home. But I know full well that school is the best place for him at the moment - he learns a lot better surrounded by his peers, where he can see what's expected of someone his age. He has no siblings with whom to playand his reading has come on so much more now he is at a school who are encouraging him with this - where would he learn if I did get to homeschool? He wouldn't read for me before he started this school, and I am not skilled to teach learning to read.
    I said this as a teacher as well. But maybe it is because I have a different view of education and schools. I just don't agree with them...

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    the world
    540

    Interesting post from a homeschooling (unschooling) blog about teaching maths. Sort of pertinent to our earlier comments about time it takes to teach and learn subjects, this one in particular maths. Apparently this guy has taught the whole primary maths curriculum to group of children ages 9-12 in 20 hours! And here is the quote about how much instruction and learning actually happens in the school day. Apparently 75 minutes in a typical American whole school day.

    Now studies have shown that in the standard U.S. school day at the average American public school, approximately one hour and fifteen minutes goes into actual instruction of new material. That's right - 75 minutes. This is not as strange as it might initially sound. Consider what happens in a six-hour school day: movement from class-to-class and the required settling in and getting up, attendance-taking, pledge, bureaucratic busywork, lunch, recess, “physical education,” drug-taking (both of the prescribed and illicit variety), sexual harassment. Inside the classroom, review of stuff from the day before, last week, or last year; homework assignments collection and distribution; dealing with “behavior problems”; classroom organization; tests, including review time for the statewide ones - you get the picture. I'm ignoring the days the student is sick, or the teacher is sick, or the school is sick (lots of school buildings in my state get closed occasionally because of “Sick Building Syndrome” - I would have called schools “sick buildings” by definition, but let's not go there.)
    Anyway here is the whole article...

    A group of homeschooling mothers gathered together in a circle to discuss unschooling approaches to their children’s education.

    “Not possible,” homeschool mom proclaimed glumly, shaking her head.

    I had just explained how the Sudbury Valley School - a democratically managed, child-directed learning environment that has been around for almost 40 years - has demonstrated repeatedly that a child could learn math - all of it grades K through 12 - in eight weeks. Average (if there is such a thing), normal (never met one), healthy children, hundreds of them, learned it all, leading to admissions to some of the leading colleges and universities in the nation.

    “Must be some kind of trick,” she insisted dolefully, remembering her own dark days in the classroom slaving over the seemingly inscrutable, all joy wrung out as from a wet sponge, then as an elementary school teacher herself, and now finally daily fighting what she was convinced was a losing homeschooling war with her nine-year-old over the required workbook pages.

    “Nope, no tricks, no special techniques, magic curriculum, or innovative teaching method,” I informed her. The secret, if there was one, was to wait until the child asked for it, indeed insisted upon it, and had a use for it, even if the use was just college admission.

    I directed her to an article on the Sudbury Valley website - “And 'Rithmetic” (from the book, Free at Last). In it, the author and school co-founder Dan Greenberg writes of teaching a group of a dozen boys and girls, ages 9-12, the entire K-6 math portfolio in 20 contact hours.

    Greenberg, who admits sheepishly that in a past lifetime he was partially responsible in the '60s for the development of the “new math" and now had lived long enough to regret it, tried to dissuade them by suggesting that it would be a lot more fun to go out and play. But no use - they were obstinate and determined. He set only one rule: be on time, 11:00 A.M. sharp, twice a week, for a half an hour. If anyone was five minutes late, class was cancelled. If it happened twice, no more teaching.

    Greenberg found an old math primer from 1898, with lots of exercises, and away they went. No shortcuts. They added the long columns and the short columns, the fat ones and skinny ones, “borrowed” and “carried” and memorized the times tables. Long division. Fractions. Decimals. Percentages. Square roots. (Square roots? They stopped teaching that in the '60s, I think, when we were - or least the more “gifted” among us - given sliderules.)

    In 20 contact hours, every single one of the kids knew the material cold. No slackers. No failures. No one “left back.” No “math anxiety.” No boredom, frustration, embarrassment. No shame or humiliation. No competition, “achievement, “failure,” or “success.” No prizes. Just 'rithmetic. The students held a party to celebrate.

    Walking around in a self-congratulatory haze, Greenberg contacted a friend, a leading elementary math specialist in the public schools, to gloat.

    “Not surprising,” mused his friend.

    “Why not,” asked Greenberg, having had the wind at least temporarily removed from his sails.

    “Because everyone knows,” he replied, verbally stomping on Greenberg's ego, “that the subject matter itself isn't all that hard. What's hard, virtually impossible, is beating it into the heads of youngsters who hate every step. The only way we have a ghost of a chance is to hammer away at the stuff bit by bit everyday for years. Even then it does not work.” (Honesty is refreshing, isn't it?) “Most of the sixth graders are mathematical illiterates. Give me a kid who wants to learn the stuff - well, 20 hours or so makes sense.”

    I could see homeschool mom was becoming more disconsolate by the minute. She could begin to get her head around it, maybe, for the K-6 stuff, but what about all that algebra and geometry and trigonometry and pre-calculus? (whatever that is - when I was in school, it didn't exist - is it some kind of holding pen?) I asked her if she remembered learning much at times when she herself was unmotivated, uncommitted, and uninspired. I felt like apologizing the moment I asked, for it was the wrong question, as all I succeeded in doing was to make her feel uncomfortable.

    “Try this,” I suggested, “Let's do the math together. Let's imagine you had one of those kids who, as a teen, was really motivated, ready to spend 30 hours a weeks on getting all the math down. (I used the 30-hour figure because it is about the number of hours per week the “average” high school kid spends in the classroom. I like the metaphorical “spending" as it begs the question “what is being given in return?”) And then, let's compare what might happen if you were to learn the same stuff in school.”

    Now studies have shown that in the standard U.S. school day at the average American public school, approximately one hour and fifteen minutes goes into actual instruction of new material. That's right - 75 minutes. This is not as strange as it might initially sound. Consider what happens in a six-hour school day: movement from class-to-class and the required settling in and getting up, attendance-taking, pledge, bureaucratic busywork, lunch, recess, “physical education,” drug-taking (both of the prescribed and illicit variety), sexual harassment. Inside the classroom, review of stuff from the day before, last week, or last year; homework assignments collection and distribution; dealing with “behavior problems”; classroom organization; tests, including review time for the statewide ones - you get the picture. I'm ignoring the days the student is sick, or the teacher is sick, or the school is sick (lots of school buildings in my state get closed occasionally because of “Sick Building Syndrome” - I would have called schools “sick buildings” by definition, but let's not go there.)

    So 75 minutes of new instruction time. But wait! Since instruction is aimed at the "average" kid, 50 percent of the time the student already knows what is being taught, so the actual instruction time from the child's perspective is closer to 40 minutes a day. Now let us imagine that 40 percent of that, or 15 minutes a day, is devoted to math. (But wait again! A good portion of that time while the child is being instructed, she would prefer to be somewhere - anywhere - else!)

    Anyhow - do the math: 15 minutes a day, 75 minutes a week, for a 180-day school year comes to 2,700 minutes or 45 hours per school year (of which a portion is in time during which the child wasn't paying attention, or just didn't want to learn - so figure 30 hours a year.) But wait again! Some of that formal math in the early years was being taught at a time when it took twice or three times as long as it would have later. After all, Greenberg had already demonstrated that all of K-6 required only 20 contact hours.

    So, do the math. If you figure the actual math time at 30 hours a year for 8 years (accounting for the wasted time in the early years), it totals 240 hours. Lo and behold - if, at age 15 or so, you wanted to learn all the math K-12, weren't inhibited by math anxiety, and were willing to spend 30 hours a week at it, it would take you...8 weeks!

    Nothing magic here, except that you might actually learn it.

    If you never teach a stitch of math, in a mathematical culture your kids will learn heaps of it anyway. Whether it be from reckoning time/distance/velocity ratios so they can figure out how soon they'll get home from looking at highway signs, to ascertaining how many Twinkies they can get with their allowance (Twinkies? Does that date me?), to helping dad bake the pies or mom replace the oil in the car (how many quarts is that? And why are engines measured in liters???), learning math along the journey is a difficult thing to avoid.

    Want a place to start? If your son has a sweet tooth, play “The Cost is Right.” Go to the supermarket, and give him two bucks. Tell him he can buy as much candy as he can manage with $2 (no tax at this stage), but that if the total adds up to more than two smackers, he loses it all. You'll be amazed at how swiftly the two-place, long-list, carrying addition falls into place, and the multiplication, and the borrowing subtraction. If you watch carefully, you'll also discover something really interesting: the “correct” way to add a group of multi-place numbers is from left-to-right, not right-to-left, and anyone who has $2.50 in his pocket and needs to buy a can of cream-style corn ($.88) and a bag of kidney beans ($1.39) knows it. That's why you had to spend all that time on those horrible worksheets, to train you in a method that goes against the grain of all human experience! Got two competitive kids? Really play “The Cost is Right,” and the winner gets an extra dollar for next time.

    Have your daughter help you fill up the car with gas (and have her be the lookout for fluctuating prices in the neighborhood.) Let her make the change, and compute your gas mileage. On a long trip, have her count the number of trucks you pass on the highway (I'm assuming you speed like the rest of us), and figure out how many you pass per hour, or per 100 miles.

    Daughter saving her allowance and birthday presents to purchase the poodle? Paste a picture of Mr. Poodle on top of a bar graph and make plotting out progress toward the goal part of the exercise. Get a special poodle-purchase bank account. (In better times, you might even get to explain interest, but currently there isn't likely to be any.)

    Petey the Poodle Puppy already arrived? Well, put some graph paper on the wall, and make weighing and measuring part of caring for said canine. (Speaking from experience, I can tell you it works for snakes as well.) Say, every two weeks. Height, length, maybe even girth, too! Think of it as future veterinarian training. Put two graphs on the wall, and measure the "child puppy" as well. (Most children love to see analogies to their own development.) You might decide to do the same with dad, but only if he's on Atkins.

    You get the idea. If you still feel your child MUST do the workbook thing, so be it. But remember that whether she succeeds with it or not will be more a function of motivation and inspiration than anything else. Give her a reason and a purpose that becomes her own and she will discover an education truly worthy of the name.

    Might take even less than eight weeks.
    Deschool Yourself: Just Do the Math!

  7. #7
    Registered User

    Mar 2008
    the world
    540

    double post! sorry!

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,979

    He wouldn't read for me before he started this school, and I am not skilled to teach learning to read.
    It's very possible your child simply wasn't ready to learn how to read then. If children are left to learn how to read when they feel ready not when they are 'told' to, generally a child will start teaching themselves how to read from about age 7/8...... I read this somewhere but will have to find the source as it was a brilliant article.

    I disagree with your statement that you are not skilled to teach learning to read. If you can read, then you can teach anyone to read.

    You don't have to be a teacher or come from an educational background of work to teach children at home.

    The quality of teaching when it is a ratio of say 1 adult : 2 kids or even 1 adult : 4kids is profoundly higher (given the adult has a general interest in teaching their kids!) than a teacher in a classroom with 20 kids. (1:20). That's just how it is.

    I have nothing against schools at all and may one day send my child to one, however at this stage we are strongly leaning towards HS as we are lucky enough to be in the position to do so.

    As for teaching maths, I am not sure how I will go about that yet however maths is everywhere in our daily life.... from counting apples at the grocery store, to handling money over the counter, kids can learn so much from every day things like this when they are HS and out and about with mum or dad, instead of being in a controlled classroom environment where outside exposure to all of this is limited due to school hrs.

    I think for maths I would use a combination of online learning programs where the kids use the computer for maths, textbooks, maybe a curriculum maths subject, not sure yet. I certainly don't feel algebra helped me in any part of my life...... don't think I will even teach this TBH. What a waste of time..... if our kids want to be vets or doctors and need this later in life when they enter tertiary study (if they want) then they can look at studying it then no rush.
    Last edited by Shanti; May 20th, 2012 at 01:03 PM.

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Oct 2003
    Forestville NSW
    8,944

    I looked heavily into homeschooling and/or unschooling before DD1 started school. We chose a school that is independant and has 18 students from grade K-6. Its a small school which is an alternative to homeschooling. I felt unqualified, and unable to homeschool. Partially because of me, but the other part was that I did not believe that I was able to teach my child. She is amazing, and I just didn't have the patience to deal with teaching her. I know it sounds a cop out, but I couldn't cope with her going to a conventional school, but at the same time I wasn't coping with her at home either. She has autism, and I have no idea what we will do when she hits grade 7.... but until then she is somewhere that is perfect for her. I worry about bully's... but there isn't bullying in her school because they have to live together... 18 kids, there isn't much room to run away from each other if you don't get along. She's been forced to learn social skills that I couldn't have taught her at home. Her main issues are social and she needed to learn how to cope with them. I felt gently in an environment which was safe was the best way to go. She would not have coped in a mainstream school.

  10. #10

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    I certainly don't feel algebra helped me in any part of my life...... don't think I will even teach this TBH. What a waste of time..... if our kids want to be vets or doctors and need this later in life when they enter tertiary study (if they want) then they can look at studying it then no rush.
    I use algebra regularly and DS1 is starting to do it in year 2. I'm pretty sure that tertiary is way too late to pick it up because they don't just have to pick up the basic algebra but the 10 years of maths built on top of that. DS1 loves maths and he is given advanced work to do - in just a couple of years his maths knowledge will have outstripped mine.

    We send our children to a bi-lingual school. There is no way we could educate them in two languages with all the attendant benefits at home.

    I know I can be their teacher because I can read & write and that's all you need to be a teacher of your children It's understanding the full commitment of it all etc that I need to look into it.... knowing that there is always school around the corner if the HS doesn't work out as planned.
    I suspect that it is a little more complex than knowing how to read and write
    Last edited by Phteven; May 22nd, 2012 at 07:59 PM. : spelling

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    It's very possible your child simply wasn't ready to learn how to read then. If children are left to learn how to read when they feel ready not when they are 'told' to, generally a child will start teaching themselves how to read from about age 7/8...... I read this somewhere but will have to find the source as it was a brilliant article.

    I disagree with your statement that you are not skilled to teach learning to read. If you can read, then you can teach anyone to read.

    You don't have to be a teacher or come from an educational background of work to teach children at home.

    The quality of teaching when it is a ratio of say 1 adult : 2 kids or even 1 adult : 4kids is profoundly higher (given the adult has a general interest in teaching their kids!) than a teacher in a classroom with 20 kids. (1:20). That's just how it is.

    I have nothing against schools at all and may one day send my child to one, however at this stage we are strongly leaning towards HS as we are lucky enough to be in the position to do so.

    As for teaching maths, I am not sure how I will go about that yet however maths is everywhere in our daily life.... from counting apples at the grocery store, to handling money over the counter, kids can learn so much from every day things like this when they are HS and out and about with mum or dad, instead of being in a controlled classroom environment where outside exposure to all of this is limited due to school hrs.

    I think for maths I would use a combination of online learning programs where the kids use the computer for maths, textbooks, maybe a curriculum maths subject, not sure yet. I certainly don't feel algebra helped me in any part of my life...... don't think I will even teach this TBH. What a waste of time..... if our kids want to be vets or doctors and need this later in life when they enter tertiary study (if they want) then they can look at studying it then no rush.
    Woah - I MAJORLY disagree.

    Firstly, I learnt to read before I went to school. I love reading. It is my life. And DS is learning to read, he's going great guns at it. He's doing well. But not good enough for me. He knows his letters, how can he not read? I have no patience for him not being able to read, or remember a "tricky word" from the previous page. If he had been paying attention and reading, he could have read it. Man up and learn. So for DS, it is far better for the school to teach him, I cannot teach someone to read. Well, not unless they are a natural born reader, as I am.

    And algebra? I use it every. single. day. And not because I am a scientist, or I teach science. Basic algebra is used constantly. "I have six people coming for dinner but only four clean plates. How many do I need to wash?" That's algebra: 4 + ? = 6. OK so it's not the "hard" (fun) stuff, but you still use it every day. If you feel you cannot or will not teach a basic life skill (as algebra also fits in with reasoning skills), whether you feel it is needed or not, then your children will suffer from being homeschooled.

    For example, I don't like PE. But DH is still teaching DS about bikes, I teach him skills he needs for the park, we have a javelin, shot putt, junior tennis set, junior badminton set, frisbee, football... just because I don't see the value in being able to chuck something about doesn't mean it isn't vital for my son to learn it and doesn't mean I play along with enthusiasm. I certainly wouldn't let a computer teach my son: HS is supposed to be about the individual provision. Better than a 1:30 ratio. Computer programmes are written to a 1:10'000 ratio.

  12. #12
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,979

    I am pretty sure that when I started this thread, I mentioned that I only wanted to hear from other homeschoolers. It's not open for a debate on whether HS is best or school is best.... If you read over my initial post I was pretty clear.

    I feel attacked for starting this thread from those of you who send your kids to school.
    This thread is not about you. I am sorry for those who wish they could HS their kids but are not in the position to do so but that doesn't mean you can come in here and start an unnecessary debate.

    The flying butter.... that's fantastic your child is in school, sounds like the best place for HIM then no need to justify it to me... It's not the thread for it ok? And to say 'your child will suffer from being homeschooled" is an INcREDIBLY huge judgement call. HS kids actually do EXTREMELY well in their home environments where their parent have the best intentions for them in a very nurturing environment. But you clearly disagree and I choose not to argue with you. Not in here.
    But it's ok there is a huge social stigma about HS your kids because it's going against mainstream. And anything that's different or not 'normal' is seen as weird. But that's cool with me.
    Last edited by Shanti; May 21st, 2012 at 11:46 AM.

  13. #13
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,979

    It's very possible your child simply wasn't ready to learn how to read then. If children are left to learn how to read when they feel ready not when they are 'told' to, generally a child will start teaching themselves how to read from about age 7/8...... I read this somewhere but will have to find the source as it was a brilliant article.

    I disagree with your statement that you are not skilled to teach learning to read. If you can read, then you can teach anyone to read.

    I go back to my quote above in one of my previous posts, with things like reading etc, why the rush? Kids will learn it in their own time when they are ready. Yes we can encourage it by reading to them LOTS of books which I do and have always done with my girls since they were 2 weeks old, but at the end of the day, your child will learn/absorb/be ready when they developmentally are ready. I don't understand why (The Flying Butter) you got so defensive over that statement I made?

  14. #14
    Registered User

    Jan 2006
    8,369

    Shanti, I am very pro-homeschool. I think children benefit from it, usually. I was part home-schooled myself. But the benefits/drawbacks to that are another story and another thread. And schooling and homeschooling depend on the school - when I initially posted, DS was in a school that was not good for him and if he had stayed there, I would be talking to DH about me not working next year and homeschooling instead.

    However, I do not think that all people are skilled to teach all things. While I do have a "he'll get it in his own time" mentality about almost everything, reading is something I cannot fathom not being able to do. DS loves reading, he wants to read, but he can't do it. And I cannot help him. I have no idea what his problem with it is. So I am not the best person to teach him to read. Someone who will not teach part of a subject is also not the best person to teach that subject - that's a fact. It's not to have a go at home schooling. But it is to say if you cannot or will not teach an important part of a key skill (such as reading or algebra in maths) then HSing by yourself isn't the best plan (some HSers have small groups of classes to have the benefits of the no-school with the benefits of group learning and specialists teaching parts of the course). Just because I can read does NOT mean I can teach reading - knowing how much bad teaching and training goes on outside HSing, I'm surprised that anyone thinks proficiency in an area automatically means proficiency to teach something.