Would you continue to use this product?

[boomba]

I am readling a fab book called slow death by rubber duck...which is about all the chemicals etc in everyday life and how they are affecting us.
anyway I began re reading the ingredients list on all my personal care stuff...I use moo goo everything cause i love it...now I always thought they were very ethically concious and still believe they are...but they use palm oil in some products.
i know not all plantations are bad, but I sent them a quick email just asking what they thought and this was their response.....

Thanks for the email. As you probably would guess, the amount of Palm Oil we use in minimal inour milk soaps , about 10g in each bar of Milk Soap which helps the quality(more suds). The Palm Oil we get is from existing plantations, which arenormally converted rubber plantations. However, in our opinion, the "BanPalm Oil" argument seems to have lost its logic and is more about marketingnow. Any product requires ingredients, the important thing is that theingredient does not cause forest clearing. If we choose an alternative ingredient the environmental consequences can bejust as bad. For example substituting in more cocoa butter. If we chose thecheapest Cocoa Butter, it may come from plantations in Africa that use childlabour. So although we are Palm Oil free, the consequences are worse. Some other companies say that they import their Palm Oil from countriesother than Malaysia. As well as adding immensely to transportation andagainst the "buy local", we would assume that even Mexican plantations havereplaced the natural environment there as well. Any consumption of naturalproducts requires farms which have replaced the native vegetation. Using thelogic that all Palm Oil is bad because it uses land that used to be forests,then even our own wheat is unacceptable. Our creams are made in an environmental commercial park that uses its ownrainwater and uses its own environmental waste treatment system. We userecycled paper for our brochures and boxes, recycleable packaging, and werecycle our shipping cartons, as well as sourcing our ingredients fromestablished plantations. If we thought we were helping by banning Palm Oil,we would do it in an instant. But in our opinion, it would not help in anyway other than marketing. Instead, we make sure our ingredients are notsourced from new plantations. It is a very hard issue and everybody has different opinions, but that iswhere we are at the moment. However if you have a different opinion it wouldbe good to hear. Thanks again,


I have come to the conclusion that they are right kinda and will probably continue to use the product but what do you think....I need to pick some brains as i ahve no one else to talk too

[Trillian]

DOn't have time to answer now, but it is certainly food for thought. I'll be back tomorrow when I've had more time.

[boomba]

Thanks Trill....
spose its the lesser of 2 evils...but where do we draw the line...do we make our own lines?

I dont think I can live without the stuff.....its fairly cheap and works well....what else could i use!

[Phteven]

I hope Junglemum reads this thread because she knows all about palm oil.
Anyways there is an ethical palm oil certification process so palm oil needn't be awful.
I think that it is encouraging that they have put thought into it.

[krysalyss]

I feel that they are copping out. They don't want to change their product and have thought up an excuse to use it. The fact is that they don't need palm oil grown in unsustainable ways. Indonesia loses about 300 football fields of forest every hour!!! and most of that is from unsustainable palm oil practices. After all you have to ask, what does anyone have to gain from the palm oil campaign. Non-profits have to spend so much time and money getting people to realise the impact of this crop. Companies save money by not having to change their practices.

The Palm Oil we get is from existing plantations, which arenormally converted rubber plantations.

- this is bollocks in that existing palm oil plantations are normall converted rubber plantations. They are normally converted forest. Also palm oil is so mixed up you can never tell what you are actually getting and where it comes from.

If we chose thecheapest Cocoa Butter, it may come from plantations in Africa that use childlabour. So although we are Palm Oil free, the consequences are worse.

To justify they are using other examples they are also bad. In my opinion this is simply their marketing. Nowhere in their response do they talk about the possibilities of sourcing from palm oil plantations that meet any kind of standard including fair trade when it is known the human rights abuses are linked with palm oil plantations.

[boomba]

So Kyrsalyss does that mean there is no palm oil which is ok?
I totally agree about the whole maketing thing...how can wanting to ban something that is devestating certain parts of the world be marketing? this upset me too...maybe someone can write to them who is more eloquent than me to ask them why?

[krysalyss]

Well when I was working on the palm oil campaign a few years ago (as a volunteer - no vested interest!) there was no sustainable palm oil available. There was the roundtable but it is basically greenwash because it has no auditing system and no consequences. I have heard recently that there is a sustainable source. But I still don't know who it is and have my doubts. I was told this by an Australian company 'using' the oil but they wouldn't tell me the company name and then when I asked where it exactly came from and they changed their story (it had originally been Australian and now it was Malaysian and they couldn't guarantee it didn't come from previously forested areas). But I can email the lead campaigner if you like and see what the current situation is?

[MantaRay]

Hun, I think it's fantastic that you took the time to write to them.

I have to admit that I have heard many conflicting stories about palm oil, so I'm not sure what's true and what's not. But I do think that most products have some harm somewhere along the line so it's hard to be totally ethical. I guess it comes down to the line that you draw for yourself. If the product fits within your level of comfort, then go for it. If you have doubts, perhaps you could investigate other products claiming to be ethical to see if they raise as many doubts. You might end finding a product you like better, that you feel happier using ethically. Or you could try and contact an environment or ethical living agency and see if they can offer you more information. Good luck!!

[boomba]

Thanks Krysalys...we dont use it anywhere else that we know of...OT I was looking at buying poppers for DS1 the other day...we dont usually but as a treat..anyway one of the brands had palm oil labled on it????? why on earth would they need palm oil in a juice popper? I was chatting with a lady at a eco festival about the orangutans and this is what made me double check too.

Mantaray thanks hun we try to live as ethically and environmentally concious as possible...we ahve started ridding ourselves of plastic...do you know how hard that is!

I also think the products we use dont have palm oil...we dont use the soap bars...but by buying any of their products is funding the deforrestastion hey

Dammed if you do dammed if you dont

[Fleur]

Just subbing, cause this is interesting
my eyes are hanging out of my head so Ihave nothign intelligent to add but will be back tomorrow...hopefully with asomehting semi-useful to say

[mummy2aiden]

I've heard something about palm oil before .. That its not "good" .. But why is it? Whats wrong with it? Sorry, I'm a bit behind and just curious x

[Trillian]

OK, I've had all night to mull over this LOL.

While essentially they are correct - land clearing for agriculture did happen and was widespread, it had a different purpose and that was to provide a food source and as far as I know, no species were pushed to the verge of extinction because of it. Not only that, but farming is done in a sustainable way, more than it ever has been and there are currently laws in place to prevent further land clearing and many many farms have given over a percentage of land for regeneration. On the other hand, palm oil production is done in environments that can little afford such destruction and they are destroying fragile ecosystems without consideration for the flora/fauna. It is like they are the kid who has just been caught out doing something wrong and said "yeah, but they were doing it too!" and pointing fingers at other people for doing the same/similar and trying to use that as justification for what they have done. Also true is the fact that everything has a cost to the environment and climate, but again the whole vibe of that email is trying to guilt you into continuing to purchase their product. Most of what they have written doesn't even make sense and is convoluted.

Now whether you should continue using it or not is entirely up to you. If you feel that this is the lesser of many evils when it comes to body products, then keep using it. at the end of the day, you can only be as ethical as you can be. If you were to live a truly ethical lifestyle, you'd be living in a hut in the jungle and wearing grass skirts with absolutely zero mod cons.

[Miss H]

If you were to live a truly ethical lifestyle, you'd be living in a hut in the jungle and wearing grass skirts with absolutely zero mod cons.

I agree. Besides the fact that MooGoo is the only stuff that helps my daughter's eczema, it really is difficult to be totally aware of everything you use unless you are living in a hut. I try to limit the chemicals in my house as far as possible but there are just one or two things that creep in that i can't otherwise. Do what you feel comfortable with.

[Bathsheba]

It is soooo hard to live 100% ethically but that's not to say it's not worth trying. It's great you took the time to write to them Boomba Personally i love MooGoo products. They are affordable, don't have most of the nasties that supermarket shampoos, soaps etc have and the company at least seem to CARE. I would keep using it until i found a better product that met more of my ethical, health, foodmiles and budget requirements. It takes time to find the right products... I believe it's more of phasing in/ phasing out process.... you can't live without soap etc until you find the perfect product... in a perfedct world we wouldn't have petroleum based products too but the computer I am tapping away on has them and that cost thousands and has led to natural disasters like the gulf mess.... not $16 (the cost of a MooGoo shampoo)

[Junglemum]

If you were to live a truly ethical lifestyle, you'd be living in a hut in the jungle and wearing grass skirts with absolutely zero mod cons.

I'm in the jungle, almost nude! oh....... guess i do have plenty of mod cons though.

Amber although DH is a beef farmer, the beef operation he runs is owned by a palm oil company here in PNG. It is called New Britain Palm oil and is the first Palm Oil company to be certified by "The Round Table on Sustainable Palm Oil" to be farming ethically and sustainably. ALL of their plantations have been planted on existing agricultural land, mostly pastures. No forest clearing has been done.
Here is my blog entry about it.... Time in the Jungle: It's time to talk about the elephant in the room- PALM OILPalm oil production in other parts of the world is having devastating effects on forest and Orangutang populations, more info here . It is disgraceful and should be stopped before the Orangutans are wiped out entirely.

I think palm oil is used in many products because it has little taste and a nice texture in the mouth, i guess that's why they put it in juice, but as far as i'm concerned juice should contain 100% juice. I must say that i am very happy to be living here where i can get 100% palm oil to cook with instead of 'vegetable oil' which generally contains Soy which i have a big issue with. I would rather eat palm oil than soy oil.

I guess the biggest problem is point of origin of the palm oil. There is no labeling to say where it comes from so you can't be guaranteed of its origin. Like Trill says, it is almost impossible to live 100% ethically. Beef for example is a terrible burden on the earth, many of my friends are veggo's for this reason. I'm not, but DH is very committed to farming sustainably and we do what we can in other areas.

As far as Moo goo goes, i will keep using their products. I appreciate their honesty and effort in producing an ethical, safe and environmentally friendly product. (after the Natural Instinct saga, i am very distrusting!) They admit to putting certain amounts of some things in their products and generally explain why. For example a certain preservative they use. I haven't found anything better for the girls. Perhaps if i do i might change, but for now i think they are doing a better job than most on the market. They could probably do better, as can most companies, but i guess they still need to make a profit. If Palm Oil is something you are really passionate about avoiding, then i would stop using MooGoo until they can show the palm oil they use is from a sustainable source.

[Kitt3n]

I appreciate their honesty and effort in producing an ethical, safe and environmentally friendly product. (after the Natural Instinct saga, i am very distrusting!) They admit to putting certain amounts of some things in their products and generally explain why.

Completely agree.

[Fleur]

(after the Natural Instinct saga, i am very distrusting!)

What's that about (if you dont' mind me asking?)

[boomba]

Thanks everyone

Ange thats what I thought last night lying in bed pondering the world...was that they were honest and didnt pretend not to use it! I dont think I can give it up? I love their products and will use them...I wonder if there is a brand out there that is 100% ethical?

I will conitnue to try to live as greenly and ethically as possible for our family...I guess thats all I can do for now!