Personally I never used to have trouble O'ing but after DD2 it took about 12 months until I got my mojo back but even though now I still O pretty much every time it still doesn't make me want it more than twice a week (if that)
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Personally I never used to have trouble O'ing but after DD2 it took about 12 months until I got my mojo back but even though now I still O pretty much every time it still doesn't make me want it more than twice a week (if that)
Oops sorry Maya - had a wrong word in my last post (joys of kids talking whilst I type) I was only referring to the orgasm theory. Otherwise in "general" I am pro saying yes, even if not fully in the mood.:
Coming back to this thread after so many replies, I can't address all those I want to individually.
I never took the OP, or the point of this thread, to be about women who have reasons - I was going to say, valid reasons, but really any reasons - for not wanting sex beyond the 'I can't be bothered'.
Freya, I'm really sorry that you feel this way, I know there have been some posts that might have been more senistive - but most of us I think get the difference between certain situations, and reasons for differing sex drives. What you are saying doesn't make you selfish, or unappreciative or anything else - hell, I'm one of those 'can't be bothered' women and I'm not going to label myself selfish or unappreciative!
I got 'orders' last night - be in bed on time or else (all a bit tongue in cheek of course) - it had been too long, and it was really only that I have been working late at home, doing crafty bits & pieces, generally going to bed too late. Not that I was avoiding sex, but I certainly wasn't putting in the effort to get to bed on time.
That is what I took the OP to be, that sometimes if there's no real reason other than it's a bit of an effort, then it might be worth making the effort. That's all.
I agree with BG, I find our intimacy in other areas definitely increases when we are having (or have recently had) sex; DH in particular seems to be more affectionate. I don't know why, I think maybe it switches on for him, it's all connected. I know one of the reasons he 'needs' regular (or semi-regular) sex is that for him it is all about intimacy, it's how he gets his needs for love & affection met.
Orgasm; I don't know... maybe it would make a difference but I don't think so. I think it's more about how your mind works. DH rarely lets me go without O'ing, so I can be pretty certain it's going to happen for me but it doesn't do much to increase my libido. I think - for me anyway - libido is about head space, I need to be relaxed & most importantly, switched off from everythign else to get in the mood. He seems to be able to switch on like a light. I wish I could!
As for the comments about infidelity - I'm not even going there, suffice to say, I hope that anyone who has been there doesn't read that & feel like it's 'your fault'.
And Rory, rofl at the mad rabbit on heat, that gave me a visual that made me laugh :lol:
i think that is the issue- who gets to decide what is an understandable and valid reason? I believe it is the woman.:
I agree - it's one of those things that no-one can know unless you have been her ... there is so much tied up in such an intimate thing it is impossible to fully know how someone is feeling unless you are them.:
And a lot of times, I would guess that a woman herself might not fully understand why it is that way. I went through a period a few years ago where rather than just being lazy about sex, I was actively avoiding it, and it took a long time to even start to work out why & to resolve it.
Would be more helpful to remain emotionally mature, I reckon. The majority of posts in here have been considered, heartfelt and empathic. Let's keep it that way (BB-wide!).
I think, in summary, I am questioning the "can't be bothered" assumption here, and saying that even if someone says they can't be bothered to make the effort, I would suggest there are other things going on to create that scenario; that if she "can't be bothered", there is probably some kind of support she's lacking and needing. Because, given the right level of support, most women I know WOULD be up for some sexiness, if other factors weren't taking away from the energy that would otherwise go into feeling sensual and sexual again.
I just don't think it's as simple as "can't be bothered", unless the woman has a pathology of emotional abuse (and even then, it's not just CBB, it's about feeling a need for power and control for another whole host of possible reasons!) towards her fella. It's a throwaway line that should serve as the canary in the relationship!
RoryRory your original post pretty clearly says that you know many of the reasons why woman arent' having sex including being with a pig of a man, physical and emotional issues and then you STILL go onto say "but really girls... etc" which to me reads that we should be putting out REGARDLESS of what is going on and then you still go on to say that if we LOVE our man to have sex for the sake of the relationship AND our childs long-term well being!!!! Are you seriously wondering why so many BB members are hurt or seriously offended by this thread?:
That is exactly what your original thread was saying! Put out for your man! And I don't see how you can now be calling for the thread to be closed when you started such a controvertial thread knowing that you'd be hiding under your chair :hide::
Luv ya, Rors (you know that!), and I tend to agree with Cherished.
The perspective espoused here by those who think 'we' need to get over ourselves and re-learn the birds and the bees (the "how did your kids get here" thingy) is one that can only come from someone who has the support and nurturing at home that others don't have. It's just too easy to say "come on, girls, just put out and get out of your bad habit" when you haven't had the reasons to 'develop the habit'. That's what those of us saying "back off" mean.
If we can't talk freely about why we don't have sex, then how do we realise what the issue are? If we're just shoved back into our rooms and told it's because we've become lazy, how does that help anything?
No-one's telling the satisfied partners to pipe down. In fact, it's helpful to know that mothers CAN have satisfying sex lives, and to know why and how so that others can re-evaluate their relationships and challenging their expected work loads with their partners.
Just please don't tell others their problem is that they don't just 'suck it up'. That's disempowering and really betrays the 'sisterhood' :(
I will admit I have only just found this read and have only read 8 out of 10 pages and whilst i can see everyones viewpoints I obviously cannot agree with it all.
So what I can add to this is my opinions and they are only opinions, it is what works for my relationship and it may not work for others.
For me and DH sex is NOT important, sex does not make or break a relationship in our opinions. Yes DH enjoys sex a lot more than me and there have been times where I've said yes when not really wanted it.
Now we don't have sex very much mainly due to the pregnancy as every position that is physically possible at this stage is unbearable due to pain and discomfort so DH would rather go without that have to have sex with me in tears due to pain.
There are a lot of factors that have led to my very low sex drive, depression, sleep deprivation the list goes on.
What really gets me about people who think (now im not saying anyone here has directly said it, Im just getting my viewpoints on this topic out there) that a woman/man must satisfy there man/woman in order to have a healthy relationship is some people don't understand mental scarring. For example a traumatic birth can have a HUGE impact on sex life after baby, I know of a woman who after 2 years was still violently ill (i mean vomitting and hypoventalation) when she thought of sex and the possibility of getting pregnant and having to labour again but her husband stood by her and was very supportive but boy did his porn collection grow ;)
For me and DH we have both been sexually abused although i was in my mid teens, DH was a child and so for us it is very, very important that both of us are FULLY up for it before engaging in sexual activity.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti sex or anti the OP when we are both up for it the sex is great but we as a couple have never had an arguement because we haven't had sex in a while in fact it has never come close to being an issue.
Anyway I will have to jump back in on this later
I dont think rory was saying put out regardless in her op, but rather, if all these issues are aside and we just look at just sex, could we change the dynamic? I think it's been a really valid and eye opening discussion, with extremes at either spectrum. I have certainly learnt a lot and reflected a lot too. Thank you everyone!
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Thanks Arcadia and Fleur :)
Cherished you're right in that the "but really girls" shouldn't be there. Rather, I should have written:
And I do stand by my comment that having sex with your husband/wife/partner can be important for your child's well being. If parents are together and "happy" (whatever their particular definition of happy may be) it is statistically in the child's best interests for the parents to stay together (by statistically I mean by all sorts of measures : financially, emotionally, socially, etc). Now generally (dare I even say in most cases) a healthy sex life is a critical part of any adult relationship. One of the best things you can do for your child is to maintain a healthy relationship with their other parent(s). So if one parent is neglecting a critical part of their relationship because they are in a crappy mindset, then that's a problem!:
Now I KNOW there can be issues which are physically related to birth which can make it painful or impossible, and sometimes women find themselves trapped with men who are utter pigs who don't deserve them or their lovely children, and sometimes relationship troubles that were there pre-baby can be magnified, and sometimes sex is out-of-bounds during pregnancy, and sometimes we feel fat or unattractive and yes we are all tired after we have a baby.
Now, for the rest of us, it was sex that got us here in the first place....
Maya I think you are spot on that women who do feel they have been attacked by this thread should feel free to talk about the other side of the coin. This thread was clearly not aimed at them (as Epacris helped me articulate better on the thread's first page - I admit I didn't consider all pertinent issues in my OP) but I do think they have every right to comment and share, without being howled down, and again I do apologise for any hurt of offence caused. I do hope no one felt I was telling women with valid relationship issues to suck it up.
Mrs S you make a valid point about the different needs a couple may have (hence my comment above "whatever their particular definition of happy may be"). Some couples would be happy with once a month, others once a day. There was actually a couple who made a pact to have sex every day for a year (I think they wrote a book about it? or a blog?) but they had extremely tight rules about how they achieved this feat - I think they banned computer use, TV and newspapers, and both spent more time helping the other with chores around the house. They couldn't do it with the woman just sucking it up and putting out - it was a mutual decision. As should sex be in any healthy relationship. I was just trying to nudge some women into making that decision, and this thread (and my rep points box) is littered with examples of women who did make the decision and actually enjoyed themselves in the process.
I would call for any thread to be closed when people start attacking individuals personally. I really don't like people walking away from BB threads feeling they have been victimised. There's been far too much of that going on lately :(:
And I don't see how you can now be calling for the thread to be closed when you started such a controversial thread knowing that you'd be hiding under your chair
ETA Mantaray thanks :)
More food for thought from a blog I read :http://lifegems4marriage.com/2011/03...your-marriage/
I have been thinking of this thread and how the original intent got lost
I thought of reframing it like one of those womens magazine type quizzes. (Not that I read glossy mags...much ;) )
Do you and your partner have as much sex as
-you used to?
-you'd like to?
If not why not?
I don;t think anyone is saying if there is a meaningful answer to that question (and yes the woman herself gets to decide what is meaningful) you'd go any futher.
BUT- if you can't quite think of an answer...or it is something along the lines of ""We go to bed at different times because of the net/tv/veging out" or "We just kind of stopped"or "Maybe he doesn't want to anymore?" or "it takes too long" or "I really don't know"
THEN- maybe its time to invest in some intimacy time (including intimate touch, massage and foreplay) etc.
BECAUSE- studies show etc etc and you might just find its rather fun!
I think its really easy in the throes of bringing up young children to neglect your romantic relationship. I also think its takes women a little longer to "warm up" when they do get intimate with their partner, and we don't tend to do things that take too long after a crazy day of nappy changing, kid wrangling, cleaning, working etc. But many people do find that if they make some effort to keep up their romance the payoff is pretty good.
If this was a magazine article Roryrory may have still got some e-mails from people who didn't like it, sex is still a taboo subject in society, which, in my opinion creates more problems that it prevents, but she could have respectfully replied with the intent (As she has done in this thread) particularly over issues such as word choice and those who got something out of it would be happy.
I think criticising word choice is often unhelpful, if the intent is clear. But if it is necessary and the poster clarifies surely then its time to talk about concepts or bow out of discussion?
I think this was a very rich conversation that many people would not feel comfortable having in real life. I hope that those who were offended can see the intent was not in any way to make people feel bad, I would say it was actually the opposite...to encourage some loving in situations where there could easily be more...
I just want to say that I'm really tiring of people having to put endless disclaimers in every post to avoid potentially offending someone. Gosh, we speak in generalisations - OF COURSE there are exceptions to the 'rule' and you may well be one of them. Gotta love how threads never stay on track or civil any more because everyone's so keen to jump to the conclusion that they're being told off by a stranger who OF COURSE knows nothing about you or your personal life. Gah!
Don't apologise, Rory. Your OP was a very valid one and I think it's launched a great discussion, I'm sure many of us have learned a thing or two or just taken a quiet look at our own situation and thought, 'I might take some of this on board and give it a shot'. Of course others will say, 'I don't agree with that, I'm not going to change what I'm doing' and that's entirely okay, but I'm sick of people being told they either don't know what they're on about, or being made to feel that they need to go back and talk in circles to exclude said 'exceptions' from their post to avoid offending them.
It feels like a disclaimer needs to go with every post.. Maybe a blanket one when you join up, along with a blanket "I won't take it as a personal attack unless my name is mentioned", after all one of the rules is that you don't attack anyone, so we should also not assume that we are being attacked.:
But back to topic.. I have thought long and hard about this.. And we are both lazy. DH is a shiftworker, on a 24/7roster, so along with everything else in our life, it has to be a little planned. And then a child gets sick, or we have visitors, or AF shows up and suddenly we are 3 weeks and not even considered it. And then we might sneak one in, and then the whole cycle starts again. I am due for the 'when are we going to have sex again?' question.
Oooh, ok, I'm missing some context - removed posts and all, that I have missed!
Now, I know there have been posters who came on to say "Yeah, I just shifted my mind a little and things went great", and this thread has been helpful in that way. I can see how the thread went a little awry, and it's not really to do with disclaimers and offensiveness or even taboos. It's possible it would have been received better by everyone if it had started out along the lines of "Ok, so I realise sex takes a battering after babies are born, and for me, I found that a bit more effort really helped. How about everyone else? Is it a case of you can't be bothered, or is it more? Do you think it would help you if you just shifted your thinking a bit?..." I've been accused of being 'smug' plenty of times here on BB before, and a lot of the responses here have been just that, because they presumed what was happening for someone else, instead of JUST speaking for themselves.
Anecdote is very helpful in all sorts of ways - to reinforce, confirm, to persuade etc. Prescription is not helpful.
I agree with PollyA - it's in the angle of the approach that has got some backs up.
I DO know what you mean by now, Rors :) The delivery is all I had a problem with and the way some others ran with it.
It's absolutely more than ok to tell about your own experience, and I don't think it's ok to say that someone else needs to do what you did, because we've all got an individual blueprint :)
:clap: great post and so very true!!! Unless names are mentiones then I take it as a generalisation...:
:)
This was a great topic to post!
What 'rule', though? Why do we have to conceptualise ourselves, others and what we do in terms of 'rules' and exceptions thereof? Instead of just a patchwork of experiences, some that may resonate and others that won't? Successful lives can also be lived if you violate 'rules' and don't qualify for someone else's idea of an a qualified 'exception'...*gasp* ;):
OF COURSE there are exceptions to the 'rule' and you may well be one of them
I get that Mayaness, and I'm speaking very broadly here, not just about this thread. I'm just getting really sick and tired of people posting their opinion (on ANY given subject), and instead of people taking it for what it is and discussing it like adults, they jump to the conclusion that they must be under attack or criticism purely because Opinion A is different to theirs (or Experience/Anecdote/Evidence A is different to theirs).
It's why I'm not posting a lot lately - I can't be bothered to say something, then in the same post essentially take it back and add endless 'buts' and assuage people who can't see my opinions for what they are - AN OPINION. That is mine. That isn't wrong, just different.
I know you're being facetious but you know what I was getting at with my use of the word 'rule' (and I did use quotation marks to show I was using the term very loosely). What I mean by that is - if you read something you find 'offensive' to your sensibilities, try to realise that we're not talking about you specifically and, tbh, don't really mind much about whether you can relate to our experiences or not - that's your business. I'm just tired of not being able to say, 'The sky is cloudy' without someone saying, 'It is not, is it a fine, sunny day from where I'm standing and I find it insulting that you would suggest otherwise'.
Whenever I say something, here or IRL, I am speaking in generalisations UNLESS I specifically state that I am referring to myself or someone else. Why is anecdote automatically assumed to be an attack on someone who has experienced something different? We're all welcome to put forth differing opinions, that's what makes this place great, but I'm losing patience with this constant need for people to 'feel judged/attacked'... I mean, come on. We're not in high school here - get over yourselves and take these sorts of threads for what they intend to be (a grown-up and mainly light-hearted discussion involving personal experiences and ideas you may or may not agree with), instead of derailing them into the train wrecks of 'I feel judged' or 'You're just ignorant' that they seem to be becoming more and more these days :(
here here glamourcide! :D
I put off replying to this thread because I really wasn't sure what I wanted to say but im going to give it a go...
Yeah it did "feel" like some were being attacked because they didn't hold the same opinion, which is why i have held back my opinion but once you step back, you realise that most women here are just giving their opinion on their REALITY.
Your reality is going to be different to mine.
You sex life is going to be different to mine.
Is yours better? No, but it's best for you. (in truth, anyone's sex life is probably better than mine at the moment!)
What I choose to do from this thread?
Take each opinion on board, pull it apart, see if ANY of the pieces fit into my life and hope it makes a difference if a difference is needed.
Not every opinion is going to mesh and that's ok - it's not wrong, just our lives are too different.
But maybe, just maybe their will be a piece somewhere that does fit and it helps? I'd really like that.
So thank you to you lovely ladies that took the time to write and put forth your opinion and your reality - you have helped someone very much in need...
Well said - it is exactly what I do with any thread, controvertial or not. I read and decide what points I want to run with/try/ignore etc...:
Thanks for all the differing opinions - certainly has given me alot to think about
Glamourcide:
I think you should post more often!! I love reading your posts! And this one is spot on!!!
I do agree with you but there were several posters who agreed with the OP and turned the discussion into 'high school' standards and also in turn made their post offensive (is it OK for the thread to turn all 'high school' providing those posts agree with the OP?). I have been reading the entire thread and chose not to post despite having completely different opinions on the topic to the majority of posters, but when I read something that I felt was offensive (and not just to me BTW, very possibly offensive to many others reading this thread) then I like to step in and provide another point of view. I think I'm personally being informative, maybe enlightening those who had not considered the other side to the story. That is a 'grown-up' way to add to a thread like this. Implying that other peoples partners will 'cheat' or 'stray' due to lack of sex is NOT HELPFUL nor mature.:
I totally get you, Taurean - what I'm saying is that I can guarantee none of us are going to agree 100% with opinions on either side of the fence (I know I don't), and we need to remind ourselves not to take such posts so personally. Yes, it's a sensitive topic and we all should tread carefully knowing that there are so many different opinions out there, but there's a difference between feeling like you can't say what you want, and saying what you want but doing it in a tactful and sensitive way. Even if you adamantly disagree with someone, there's no need to be rude about it - and remember that, as offensive as one may find certain posts, they're not speaking specifically about you (collective 'you') or your situation, so even if you do believe that they are coming from a point of ignorance or inexperience, there's no need to point it out in so many words - why not just say, 'I don't agree, and this is my experience', rather than flame another poster or jump to offense in place of the natural defensive position?
Example that is standing out to me - posters feeling 'judged' or attacked for not having lots of sex, snapping back and implying that those of us who are having lots of sex must (or at least probably) have poor relationships that simply can't be maintained without a sexual relationship. Come on. I'm lucky I can laugh that notion off because I know it's not the truth for me and my husband, I don't feel offended by those assumptions but I imagine there may be others who DO feel offended by that implication. Which turns a worthwhile discussion into a petty tit-for-tat. 'You suggested that my relationship may run into difficulties over the lack of sex, so I'm going to defend myself by saying your relationship must be inferior if you need regular sex to stay together'.
Of course there have been posts, on both sides of the discussion, that have included some (in my opinion) insensitive or not very well-worded or -thought out statements or ideas. But that doesn't mean they're not valid. That doesn't mean others have the right to jump all over them and suggest that the poster is 'arrogant' or 'ignorant' or just plain doesn't know what they're on about - all of us have different experiences and we can respect that while still stating our opinions. You're (again, collective 'you) are more than welcome to focus on a particular statement that you disagree with, and point out why and perhaps help change someone's perspective by sharing, but when we're all jumping up and down saying the wordy equivalent of 'How DARE you?!', nobody learns a thing and the topic gets way off track.
FWIW, I don't agree that a lack of sex will lead to a spouse cheating. I know partners who have cheated whether they've been getting plenty at home or none, and I know partners that have remained faithful regardless of the state of their sex life. I'm sure we can all agree, as others have stated, that relationship breakdown or dissatisfaction is much bigger than 'just' sex. The cheating element is probably an irrelevant one to the OP's original idea, which was simply that it might be helpful to all of us to have a look at our sex lives (and the bigger picture) and see if we can find ways to improve that part of our relationships in order to improve or overall relationships. That's not a bad thing, I don't think - and like I said, if you don't think that notion is a useful one to you and your spouse, then you're free to ignore it and move on with your life!
I totally understand where you're coming from Glamourcide, I really do :) I think being such a sensitive topic though, posting in threads such as these really needs a lot of thought and quite a lot of tact (from both parties too - those who are getting it and those who aren't!). A low-sex relationship can be very stressful and upsetting and there can be a lot of work involved to help individuals and couples get through it (with or without therapists) and although a lot of the responses in this thread have been written in a collective 'You' way, for those reading who are trying to come to terms with their low-sex relationship and or work though it, it can be a terrible set back. It can instantly make them doubt themselves and their relationship.
Like I said earlier, I'm in a low-sex marriage and thanks to counselling (both with a sex therapist and psychologist), I'm pretty cool with it now. But when our 'issue' first became apparent (about 6 years into our relationship), when I believed it was 'wrong' and 'strange' for my DH to have a low libido (and I mean 'wrong' only because everyone, besides therapists, said it was :rolleyes:), reading or hearing comments like some of those in this thread would have completely screwed with my mind. My old friend 'Mr Doubt' would have started questioning everything again. I generally couldn't give a rats what anyone else thinks or says now as I know better (a good therapist will do that ;)) but boy have I had many moments where I've doubted myself and our relationship and it's hard for something like this thread to not cause doubt in those who are living in a low-sex relationship. The general population tends to believe that it's not 'normal' for couples to be having less sex than the 'average' couple but that is only because it's not openly spoken about. And it's threads like this that only make the issue worse. I'm sure no one meant to offend anyone but coming from the other side, I can see how easily people were offended.
The other thing that seemed to cause offense was comments about 'sex after baby' by those that haven't even had a baby yet! I think it's one of those threads, mainly because it is such a sensitive subject, that only those who have been through it should post. I know we can ignore the posts from those who haven't been through it but when they voice their opinions so loudly, it's quite hard to ignore them! :lol: I don't reply in threads about LTTC, miscarriages & stillborns, children with medical conditions, etc because I don't belong there. They are sensitive subjects and I have no personal experience in them - my opinion is not needed. I think the same applies to this particular thread. Unless you've been there ie 'after baby', then how can you really add value to the discussion IYKWIM. Once again, I wasn't personally affected by those particular posts but I think it's pretty obvious why some others were.
I agree with roryrory, I agree with Glamourcide and I agree with Taurean. Infact, I'm feeling so generally loved up agreeing with everyone that I think I might whack some Barry White on.
:
i really agree with this post. im relatively new to this forum, but here is what i have seen so far. (kinda off topic)
it seems that there is always someone ready to turn someones words/experience/opinion into a criticism, and jump on the "im offended" bandwagon. even if this was clearly not the intent.
as this thread gets longer and longer, posts seem to be getting written much more carefully.many appear to be walking on egg shells, trying very hard not to "offend" anyone.
then someone "slips up". by slipping up,i mean someone says something that can be (if the reader chooses)taken the wrong way. when it is in fact just thier experience/opinion. then the poster gets made to feel awful for stating thier opinion. Are we seriously expected to know everyones thoughts on the topic???
so then come the apologies and clarification posts...backing the trucks up.
i dont think anyone should have to apologise for stating an opinion when it isnt personally directed at anyone. we shouldnt have to be "careful" with what we write. as long as we arent cursing and personally "attacking" someone, then we should respect and appreciate everyones input.
No one should be made to feel that thier opinion is any less valid that someone elses.
I just want to thank everyone who shared their opinions and experiences in this thread. You've all given me a lot to think about and made me realise that I need to have a conversation with DH (as a start).