You have to wonder about some people don't you?! And I totally agree with you about what we'd feel if our DP/H 'smacked' us, even if it was gently. Which, by the way, used to be socially acceptable, or at least, tolerated.:
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You have to wonder about some people don't you?! And I totally agree with you about what we'd feel if our DP/H 'smacked' us, even if it was gently. Which, by the way, used to be socially acceptable, or at least, tolerated.:
i wonder if she was smacking out of her own anger, i hate when people do that. my son is too young for this. BUT for my nephews who are 6 and 8 years if one hits the other as a bully they get warned ie: "if you hit your brother again i will hit you to show you it's not nice" if they continue they get a smack.:
BUT if they are just fighting than its a totaly different situation and they are both punished but not as a smack.
we are smackers but never as a weapon of fear. i keep reading about children fearing their parents, i was smacked HARD as a child, but i have never feared my parents, ever.
the other things i'm surprised at is the reasons people smack. we allways warn first but we smack for doing things like something dangerous or if they have been asked several times to stop touching something they are not allowed to.
we don't smack for tanties as they have already lost self control, so thre is no point.
(tho my son is too young atm)and we don't smacking for bad language we talk about social standards and have time out. and we never smack for playing out of control or running around the shops. or being just loud kids. and my nephews and son are very loud kids.
in short we smack if they do something wrong that they know too well they are not allowed to. the things they are testing us for not things they don't understand.
hope this makes sence, my jelly baby brain is a little extra cloudy today...
I got the occasional smack as a child - but it was always warranted and never too hard. I still don't agree with it and I won't smack my children. Violence does not earn you respect. I would rather use positive reinforcment and other methods.
Ditto here. My mum and I only became friends when I hit my 20's, got engaged and moved out. Up until that point she was always very much a guide rather than a friend.:
my mother didn't start to be my friend till i was at least 23y/o and to be honest she is still my mother and tells me if im doing something wrong.
I have never smacked my dogs either. One of my dogs would bark constantly and I would simply use a bottle to spray water in his face. That combined with positive praise when he was quiet and a week later the barking had stopped. I know you can't compare this to a child but it goes to show that I didn't need to use violence or a power trip to get him to do the right thing.
I know what you mean.:
I don't like to smack and its very rare that we do. positive reinforcemant is a great tool to get my son to do the right thing most of the time.
OK. I havent read every post cos I am supposed to be working :rolleyes:
But I do have strong view points on this.
When I was young I smacked my dog for doing something 'naughty'. At that moment I realised that I had smacked her because I was angry at her not because it helped me teach her what I wanted to do. I have never since smacked anything.
Children learn mostly from imitation. They learn how to deal with situations from their parents so if their parents act in a violent way (yelling, hitting etc) that is how they will learn to deal with that situation.
I also don't believe that children need to fear their parents. Respect and fear come from very different places. I think respect comes from having logic behind your decisions and explaining them to your child. Fine, a one year old won't understand a big lecture but by using one word to show your reason eg. 'stop! danger!' when they go to touch the hot stove or stand on their chair will help them to realise the consequences as they learn to talk.
Going a bit OT, I think we have to think about whether we are raising our kids to be good children or good adults. Good adults have learnt logic through related cause and effect (eg. if I stand on my chair I might fall off) rather than unrelated cause and effect (eg. if I stand on my chair I get a smack from mum).
So I don't see the situation totally as to smack or not smack (although I don't smack) but rather how best to (safely) teach your child to understand a situation.
Just to clarify, (but getting OT) smacking and spraying with a bottle are both punishment techniques. The difference is that if you use smacking the dog is focused on you, knows the punishment comes from you, and may not make the connection between the behaviour and the punishment. The waterbottle is used while the dog is (presumedly) looking at whatever is stimulating it to bark and not you and is more likely to make the connection (and not think it came from you). If for example, you went up to the dog and then either smacked or sprayed it would have the same effect as the dog is then focused on you and won't make the connection between behaviour and punishment. Both are negative for the dog and really aren't very different. Again it is about making the dog think of the appropriate cause and effect - that the barking causes the spray and not that the owner having a spray bottle causes the spray. IYKWIM?:
I have never smacked my dogs either. One of my dogs would bark constantly and I would simply use a bottle to spray water in his face. That combined with positive praise when he was quiet and a week later the barking had stopped. I know you can't compare this to a child but it goes to show that I didn't need to use violence or a power trip to get him to do the right thing.
(but I actually don't agree with punishment used in this context. Just wanted to explain a bit more from an animal behaviour POV)
I smack my kids.
However, I think the absolute essential point of ANY discipline method that you choose is that it needs to be accompanied by teaching, administered in love, and applied consistantly! Your children must understand that you are not venting frustration on them (that's abuse!) or getting your way because you are bigger, or they have pushed you beyond the point of being reasonable, or whatever. When you give a clear instruction, your children should know what is expected, and know what the consequences will be if they don't obey. They must also know when they are disciplined that it is because you love them, and you want them to bring them up well.
Discipline, in whatever method you choose, will be effective if you use it in that way. When you put your foot down, mean it. But don't be a crazed parent striking out whenever the mood strikes you, and calling it discipline!
Also, I don't think it's right to use an instrument to strike your child. If you use your hand only, only on their bum, you can strike to sting a little, but never to really hurt them!
As far as confusing your children about hitting others and being smacked - I was never confused about that, and my children are not either. They do not smack each other on the bum. When they hit, they are hitting in anger at faces, arms, legs, etc. Smacking on the bum for discipline is not done in anger.
I couldn't have smacked if i wasn't angry. It's one thing i struggle with - do you parents who smack REALLY calm down and then when you're flat calm smack? If i'm calm it never strikes me that i'd WANT to smack. And i DO want to smack when i'm enraged, it's just i have only once done so, you know? Like say DD draws on the walls or mirror (her favourite just now). If i'm enraged i think "MY BLOODY FLOORS!" and want to smack the crayon out of her hand (though i don't, i take 10 deep slow breaths to calm down and then deal with it), if i'm calm i think "WHY did i leave her crayons out again!?" and say "DD, we don't draw on walls, we draw on PAPER" and provide her with some. I don't get how i could hit her if i wasn't angry - i really don't like hitting though (between anyone) so maybe that's why.
Also, this is going to sound really weird but when i was 14 i went out with a guy (he was 20) who knocked me about a bit and i actually preferred it in some ways. I know, it sounds awful, but if he was angry with me he would guilt-trip me and cold-shoulder me and generally create a really awful atmosphere. If he slapped me it would be over with. I used to be glad if he slapped or pushed or punched me that it was over with, and i'd be worried about that with a kid, that they were preferring a smack as a quick resolution to something without real consequences...?
I found a clip on Youtube of a young man on Dr Phil (who i can't stand, btw!) here which really highlights to me the reason i think hitting is not for us. There seems to be a dynamic whereby they fight about who hit whom HARDEST, and how one hit is worse than another, and it is clear the boy is very very upset with his mum. I felt awful for them and wondered how the loving dynamic you want in a family had become so out of reach for them.
Bx
I dunno... my 2yo definitely knows when he's doing something naughty. I can ask him if he should be drawing on the wall, and he'll say "no, on paper". He's definitely learning responsibility already for his actions.. I'm not going to take responsibility for things he knows full well are naughty. In fact he looks at me waiting to get in trouble when he knows he's doing something he's not allowed to do LOL. I can ask him what the consequence of doing something is.. eg. he has a tin whistle/recorder type thing that he plays.. but he often hits things with it.. I ask him what happens if he hits things with the whistle, and he says 'go room'. Going to his room is the latest punishment that works LOL.:
We have smacked. I agree with (can't remember who said it) that we smack when he already knows he shouldn't be doing something, but not for things he wouldn't have known were dangerous or naughty. But punishments have changed as he's gotten older, and no doubt his 'currency' will change many times yet.
Each child is different. We haven't entirely ruled out smacking as an option that's for sure, but we do try other things. We always have a chat & a hug after whatever punishment is administered, and he's very good at saying sorry, which is lovely. He spontaneously says sorry now when he's hit or hurt someone, even by accident, (not all the time, but still!) so I figure how we're handling him can't be all wrong :)
Oh - one thing I wish I'd never started is counting to 3. LOL. Now he doesn't do anything until I'm up to 2 1/2!! If only I could shift that to doing it when I ask in the first place! LOL. I guess I should be grateful it works.. I get cranky with DH when he gets to 3 and then doesn't do anything about it.. I said you have to follow through if you get to 3 or it undoes the whole thing! heheheh.
Liz, it can be that young children can understand the concept of their actions being 'wrong', but can't actually control themselves to stop doing it. Like they find a crayon they want to draw and the wall is RIGHT there in front of them, so they have to draw on it, even though they know they shouldn't. That's why it's called impulse control, cause although they know the action is not appropriate and might carry consequences, they do it anyway.
I've noticed that with my kiddo (20mo), he knows what he's doing is wrong, and if you intervene soon enough, where he's kind of thinking about being naughty, you can avoid the bad behaviour, but once he's decided to do it anyway...it's kind of too late, once he's started, it's like he's commited to the naughtiness. :P
Mmm, better go, dinner.
I've only read the last page so sorry if I'm repeating anything but....
We've had issues with discipline since Matilda was 17 months. Initially DH & I were passionately opposed to smacking. After going through parenting courses, child psychologists etc we read some books about it & decided that we would try smacking. We would give cool down time for us & Matilda & then smack for a behaviour, or we would say "Matilda, you are not allowed to bite your sister, if you do that again you will have to have a smack" If she did it again we would take her to her room (we are against impulse smacking & public smacking) and she would get a smack from me. We also agreed ahead of time that DH would never smack Matilda. Look, it worked for a week and then we started smacking on the sly. Once we realised this we stopped it alltogether. I believe that we as parents are challenged to raise a child through correction, and discipline. I don't think smacking works with Matilda anyway, and it doesn't work for DH & I so its not for us.
With DD2 who is only 19 months, I can't find any reason to smack. I haven't had a reason to do it & I don't plan on doing it.
Yeah, when i say impulse control, that's not the same as knowing the rules. Children only have a conscience from around 3, though you see signs of it before then, it comes and goes (which is why they, mine does too, SOMETIMES apologise, but nmot always). That means that there is no internal guilt mechanism and no means of controlling behaviour, even behaviour that they know is undesireable. My DD can also tell me "draw on PAPER!" when i ask, but this is an intellectual response she has learned, not an emotional response she feels, kwim? She still can't help but draw on the walls if she has the whim. Most children have a few impulses (drawing on things, spilling things, touching things they aren't allowed to touch, hitting with the whistle) which they cannot control and you can smack them or send them to their room daily, impulse control comes when it comes, it can't be "taught" - it's a developmental stage like sucking or walking or speech. The punishment can be useful in that it reinforces the rule, but it cannot teach the ability to obey the rules without constant reminding/punishment for breaking them. Because i know that i can put her in her room and listen to her cry and then get her out and talk to her about it and she will STILL, twenty minutes later, with the tears barely dried on her cheeks go and draw on the walls again, i prefer to keep the crayons out of reach unless i'm sitting down with her to draw (which i try to do once a day at least). Everyone has to take the approach that works for them, for me i prefer minimum conflict until the conflict can beget positive results.
If DD draws on the wall and then sees i am upset, she will stop. But at 2 she is unable to PREDICT i will be upset and prevent herself from drawing on the wall in the first place. Impulse control is a toughie for most of us (hence my smacking that one time - that was lack of impulse control too!) and when a child "misbehaves" and is looking at you, they are usually looking to you for help to re-establish their equilibrium of "right" and "wrong" - it's as if they've de-railed, they need you to put them back on the rails where it's safe, but they don't know how to get there themselves. Imagine like when a tiny baby waves their arms so much they can't latch on and feed well - they will look at you and scream, because they have no motor control and need help. Toddlers don't have a fully functioning conscience - YOU are their conscience. You are the angel and the devil on their shoulders. That what all the "testing" of boundaries are about - they don't fully grasp that you and they are seperate yet, you're a part of them, to them. When they push you to the limits it is THEIR limits they're trying to find. As children grow past 3 or 4 their own conscience begins to come online more continuously, so they feel bad for misbehaving without having to be told off (this is also when they begin to lie to see what effect that has - like, oh i did wrong, i feel bad, if i lie will i feel better? Or will mummy not be mad at me if she doesn't know i did wrong? But will i still be mad at me? - again, they are beginning to see that you and they are seperate - they can feel bad about something even if YOU don't know about it yet - this is the dawn of real individuality and its flipside, empathy) but they STILL often struggle with self-regulating their behaviour. That's the stage where i'd introduce harsher consequences and begin to let them have more opportunities to self-regulate.
Bx
I thought I'd replied to this!
I'm not against smacking, although I don't do it - yet. DS is intelligent enough to be told his behaviour is unacceptable and he is to stop doing this/put that away/whatever. About 75% of the time he does as he is told and made much of - he only does things because he wants more attention (usually when we're both busy eg cooking), and good behaviour brings that. The rest of the time we take the offending article away and put DS on the sofa with a toy. Once we have finished what we are doing, such as hanging the washing out, we'll go and play with DS - but we won't interrupt our chores for a naughty boy.
DS is brilliantly behaved the majority of the time (just before dinner is his nightmare time) and we have great fun playing together. He can spend two hours in a shop while Daddy buys a bicycle at lunchtime - now that is fantastic! (I did do a lot of wheeling him around on a big-boy-bike that was on display with Pingu on... DH wouldn't let us get it yet, the meanie!)
Would I smack? If DS was doing something he'd been told not to do because it would require hospitalisation, yes. Drinking bleach or a smack? I'd smack him. Running in front of a car or a smack? Smack again. I usually let him make his own mistakes, but dangerous ones he can be saved from making.
The main reason I don't smack is because DS is going to grow up to be a gentleman and settle things without violence. He is going to not hit or bite me (some day) and look after ladies, who are delicate creatures and need love, not violence. And I will have no moral superiority to be able to lecture him on being kind and gentle if I hit him, especially in anger. If it saves his life I'll do it in a heartbeat, but as a rule I won't hit him.
:) and DH does love giving me a quick "smack". It's usually for something silly and is a joke, so I don't mind and do the same back. DS also loves having his bum patted so I can't see smacking really working for us as a family.
There are lot of different views on this.
I agree that with DD2 she very rarely gets into trouble as she is still learning right from wrong. She doesn't really understand the difference yet.
But she is 3. DD1 is 6 & definetly knows the difference, but will do the same things my 3 year old will do. She draws on the walls, tips shampoo or bubble bath or whatever down the drain, tears up paper into tiny peices & leaves it everywhere, tears books. Things that you expect from a 2 - 3 year old. Not from a 6 year old.
Then doesn't get why she gets in trouble. I've tried explaining to her that DD2 is younger & doesn't know it's wrong yet. If they are both doing whatever it is, I try just talking to them both. But when DD1 is drawing on the walls yet again, knowing it's wrong without DD2 there I usually do yell, & send her to the naughty spot.
What else do you do with that? Telling her for 4 or more years that its wrong for her to do it anyway? Then throwing a tantrum when she does get sent to the naughty spot???
Haha, we're smackers and pinchers too, Riv often does circuits in our house and we'll give him a whack every time he comes past, he thinks it's hilarous. :P In fact, he gets knocked about a LOT harder when we're mucking about than when he's being disciplined - the discipline is a mere tap.:
and DH does love giving me a quick "smack". It's usually for something silly and is a joke, so I don't mind and do the same back. DS also loves having his bum patted so I can't see smacking really working for us as a family.
But like I said before, gently remonstrating with him on its own - he thinks it's funny, whereas a tap/smack gets his attention, he seems to get the message 'hey, mummy's serious about this'.
Christy, that's an excellent point about the impulse smacking, I'll have to mention it to dh.
Impulse control really is important to take into account when disciplining hey - no point punishing when your bub doesn't know they've done wrong. As Hoobley says, that comes later, when they get to the age where they need to practice and develop self control.
Gee it's all so confusing isn't it - we're even learning that discipline has to be different from morning to night, because as he tires, he becomes sensitive and not much teaching sinks in by then anyway. Ai ai ai...
ETA: Man, it's a challenge hey bjrose! Does positive reinforcement work? Like a sticker chart for every day she doesn't write on the walls or whatever, and when she gets to x amount of stickers, she gets a small treat, or a special dessert, or whatever floats her boat? I understand that eventually one day we all want our kids to do the right thing just because it's right, but until then...perhaps she can get encouraged/rewarded for every day she sets a good example for her sister? (let me know what ends up working, I'm sure I'll need it in a few years time! :P)
bjrose i would have a harsher consequence. I don't in general offer a consequence i can't escalate. So if she draws on the walls she goes into time out. She can tantrum all she wants, but she still has to go to the naughty step.
I would at some point think of something that would really bother her - having her stereo/tv/whatever taken away. Then warn her well - if you do this again i will take xxx away for a week. She WILL do it again, she wants to see if you mean it. Follow through, fully. Even if after 4 days she is an *ANGEL* the punishment goes on as prescribed until it's done with.
It might also help to give her responsibilities and privileges due to her age so she can feel older than your littlie across the board, kwim? So if she only has the same rights/responsibilities as little DD, why should she behave better than her? Allowing a child to stay up even 30 minutes later at night, have special tasks she is allowed to do or help with, anything that increases in her pride in herself and her growing abilities. It sounds like she reckons little DD has a better deal than her and wants a slice of the pie! You have to make HER deal seem the more attractive option, does that make sense?
Bx
hmm.. I know what you're saying Bec, and would love to believe my child is that innocent. But I find it hard to believe that shutting all the doors to the loungeroom to hide in there and play with the xbox - or whatever has taken his fancy - is just an uncontrollable impulse.. seems fairly calculated to me LOL.
And when he misbehaves and looks at me.. it's more of a "i'm busted" look than anything, not a "am I allowed to do this" look.
I dunno.. maybe I give him too much credit.. and should take more of the blame LOL.
We do try to keep things out of reach - things like the video camera etc.. but our computers are always in reach, the tv is always in reach.. and he has free access to pens & paper, and is generally good and asks for paper to draw on. I think it's important for them to get into trouble, it's how they learn. If I kept all the pens out of reach, how would he learn that you really don't draw on anything but paper? It would all be theory, and no practical.