thread: Enviro bags are everywhere!

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  1. #1
    Registered User

    Sep 2007
    Off with the fairies
    470

    I was mostly refering to the green and other various colours that they come in like you can by at the check out at Bunnings/coles etc. I too have them stuffed with things all over the house. The kids have there skates, toys, clothes hanging up in their cupboards, we use them for swimming, storing kilo's of spuds from our garden lol. They are useful. I also use them at the clothing pool I run for my kids school. Usually they are dumped with used clothes in them for me to sort, so I use them when people buy something. I am in favour of them over the plastic bags however I think that people haven't quit got used to using them instead of plastic. I think that they are being used as well as the plastic bags, I have even seen people put their items into a plastic then putting them in an enviro bag.

  2. #2
    Administrator
    Add Rouge on Facebook

    Jun 2003
    Ubiquity
    9,922

    Yup I think they'll be the new litter!

  3. #3
    Moderator

    Oct 2004
    In my Zombie proof fortress.
    6,449

    We have too many. We were actually part of the plastic bag trial and boy does it add some guilt to forgetting bags. As we had enough greenbags, I was always happy to pay the charge for the plastic bags rather than buy more greenbags.

    Some of my bags are now falling apart, well they do get treated roughly so that is understandable. I use them in the boot of the car to keep things tidy, like wet weather gear, straps for the trailer etc. I have used them when packing, so things can be divided up rather than just dumped all together in a box, they are good for messy things like cables. Even with doing all that, we still have too many.

    It would be interesting to see what we are meant to do with them when they die.

  4. #4
    Administrator
    Add Rouge on Facebook

    Jun 2003
    Ubiquity
    9,922

    I found this article in SMH

    How green is your bag
    April 25, 2005

    Fashion statement, talking point, environmental saviour, pollutant, profit-maker - or all of the above? Margot Saville rifles through the grocery holdall of a nation.

    There are at least 10-15 million circulating in Australia - probably many more. They come, mostly, in the sort of bright, unnatural green that looks good on no one. Yet two years after their appearance, they are apparently Australia's favourite accessory.

    "Forget the little black dress," declares a Sunday newspaper. "The hot new item around town is the little green bag."

    A reader writes in reply: "It's so spacious, and they're great for the environment, adding spark to any outfit. Go green!"

    One newspaper columnist claims the green bag as a new Australian icon: "In 2005, we proclaim we are one nation with green bags just as we proclaimed we were one suburb of a nation with Holden cars, Hills hoists and the backyard barbie."

    Then there are the knockers.

    "Australians are being conned," says a letter writer in The Age newspaper. "Your environmentally friendly green bags are made of plastic - polypropylene is a fossil fuel-based plastic. The bags are also imported from China. So, plastic, non-renewable, doing nothing for our balance of payments and guess what? You're paying for the privilege. Supermarkets are laughing all the way to the bank."

    Another reader writes: "I've just retired after 30 years in the packaging industry and, frankly, I'm amazed at the constant rave about the 'environmental' green bags ... Doesn't anyone realise these bags are made of the same 'almost indestructible' materials used in car bumpers and wheelie bins? ... These bags replace the plastic bags, which were in the throes of changing to a safe cornstarch biodegradable form ... what happens when these 'cool' bags reach their use-by date? Will there be millions of them in circulation?"

    Ian Kiernan, chairman of the Clean Up Australia campaign, last year defended the bag in a letter to the Herald. "Each green bag will last an average household about two years, or 104 shops, after which they can be recycled through Coles and Bi-Lo supermarkets," he said. "Every green bag equals 1.2 single-use plastic bags. That's an estimated 8.3 plastic bags saved every week, or 431 a year."

    But it remains to be seen if shoppers will recycle the bags when they start to wear out. Our record has so far been poor: less than 4 per cent of plastic carry bags are returned to supermarkets for recycling. In the meantime, importers of the green bags expect the booming sales to continue.

    Catherine Christie spoke for many of us when she wrote to Adelaide's The Advertiser newspaper in February: "Are there any other shoppers who forget on supermarket day to take along their green bags? I have enough green bags to start a recycling shop." Even the federal Environment Minister, Ian Campbell, said last month: "I think I have bought more of these reusable bags than any person on the planet."

    A CSIRO research scientist, Dr Mike O'Shea, says the green bag's only environmental credential is that it is not the single-use high-density polyethylene plastic bag still given out in most shops and supermarkets.

    The green bags, which are made from non-woven polypropylene, are designed to have a relatively long life but they are not designed to break down in the compost heap, he says.

    Polypropylene is a byproduct of oil refining, O'Shea says. Produced during the process is propylene gas, which, when put into a reactor, becomes propylene powder. After stabilisers are mixed with the powder, it is placed in an extruder, which produces propylene pellets, which can then be turned into a range of things including car bumper bars and food containers. If the pellets are melted, they can be made into a fibre which can then be made into bags.

    While environmental groups such Clean Up Australia give support to the green bags, because they can be reused, the debate continues. The Deputy Prime Minister, John Anderson, made headlines in August when he criticised them.

    "I don't know how they are made but you don't know what goes into making them and how many plastic bags there really are in the world," he said. "I'm not against it but I'm not sure." When asked recently if his views had changed, Anderson told the Herald that he supports the use of reusable and recyclable bags. His main concern now was whether they were "made from Australian materials rather than imported".

    Although environmentally aware shoppers have always carried tofu-stained calico bags, the green bag movement gained momentum in 2002 when public concern prompted a government study on a possible plastic bag levy.

    Australians were using about 10.5 billion plastic bags each year, including about 6.9 billion retail carry bags. Millions of these bags entered rivers and seas, where they could kill whales, birds, seals and turtles. Plastic bags were also said to add $173 million to our annual grocery bill.

    Reusable green bags got the nod over biodegradable plastic bags because it was found many degradable bags did not break down as claimed. (A standard for biodegradable plastic bags is not due until later this year.)

    In order to avoid levies or a ban, the Australian Retailers Association - which represents most big supermarkets such as Coles and Woolworths - agreed to reduce plastic bag use by 25 per cent by December last year and 50 per cent by this December.

    In March, the retailers' association reported last year's target had been achieved - but only just. Retailers would struggle to make this year's target, the association said. If the targets are not achieved, the association expects a ban or tax of 25 cents per plastic bag.

    The problem lies with smaller retailers such as pharmacies, newsagents and bottle shops - about half of which had not even heard of the target, a March survey by Planet Ark showed. Retailers cited cost, habit and convenience as reasons for sticking with plastic bags.

    Nevertheless, the Environment Minister has set an ambitious deadline for phasing out plastic bags. On June 22, Campbell will ask retailers to sign a "formal agreement with the Commonwealth of Australia" to phase out plastic bags completely by 2008. Retailers will be given three months to sign. The document will then be made public so shoppers know who has - and who hasn't - signed up.

    This all adds up to big business for Jeff Egan, director of the printing firm JMP Holdings, which supplies green bags to Coles and the independent grocery chain Independent Grocers of Australia. "The number of green bags we have sold has doubled over the past 12 months, and will double again over the next 12," Egan says. JMP sold about 2 million green bags in 2003-04.

    But expanding sales will depend on whether smaller retailers follow the lead of bigger supermarkets. Total sales of the bags are difficult to tally. Woolworths has so far sold more than 7 million green bags. Coles sold more than 4 million last year alone.

    "IGA has 1000 supermarkets and it takes time for the individual shop owners to [adopt the bags]. But those sales are rapidly expanding," Egan says. The supermarkets don't make big profits on the bags, he believes. The cost of the bags varies according to the size of orders. "The supermarkets are selling them for less than $1 and they are not making huge profits."

    Egan declines to reveal his wholesale prices, but industry watchers estimate the large supermarket chains are buying them for about 65 cents each. Coles and Woolworths sell the green bag for 99 cents. Like most wholesalers, including Planet Ark, which sells the bags for 80 cents to $1.40 each, JMP imports them from China.

    Lower labour costs allow China to supply bags cheaply. It is a very labour-intensive process, Egan says.

    "The material is extruded, dyed, folded and cut to size. The girls sit on Singer sewing machines and do only part of the bag before it is passed on to the next section. Then the bags are taken across to the print factory, where they are silkscreened, packaged and shipped all over China," he says.

    One Chinese manufacturer, the Kangmao Arts and Crafts Company in the city of Henan, produces 5 million non-woven polypropylene bags a month in hundreds of styles. A spokesperson said Kangmao sold to 10 customers in Australia.

    Planet Ark's Doug McLean says the green bags "serve as a first step in changing the way we use bags and why we use bags". They are "not perfect, but they are an initial break in the link of people taking 7 billion throwaway bags. There is an emphasis on behaviour change."

    One of the biggest behaviour changes will be teaching Australians to recycle the bags rather than discard them when they wear out.

    Coles-Myer takes back its bags for recycling, but a Woolworths representative could not say if a similar recycling program was planned or in place. Recycled bags are shredded and made into products such as outdoor furniture. Australians have so far shown little interest in recycling programs for plastic bags.

    Only 3.2 per cent of plastic bags were returned to supermarkets for recycling from June to December last year, the Australian Retailers Association reported in March.

    Under a voluntary code, the figure is supposed to be 15 per cent by the end of this year. But the figure has "actually reduced from June 2004", because so many of us hold onto them for bin liners and other secondary uses.

    The main short-term challenge is convincing small retailers to give up the plastic bag habit. Unless this happens, the 50 per cent reduction target by the end of this year will be difficult to achieve.

    Only 126 stores had signed up to the Australian Retailers Association code by the end of last year.

    "This represents only 4 per cent of the estimated number of [association] members utilising [high-density polyethylene] plastic bags, well short of the 25 per cent target as outlined in the code," the association reported in March.

    Still, green groups such as Planet Ark insist that any move away from plastic is a good thing.

    "The next 10 steps will hopefully be about providing ever-more eco-friendly and continued cost- and style-effective bags for all of our formerly throwaway bag behaviours," McLean says.
    I never knew the bags were made out of bad material I would definitely prefer biodegradable bags!

  5. #5
    Registered User

    Sep 2007
    Cairns
    1,787

    Yep - the green bags only have the advantage of being reusable (up to a point), but they are significantly more energy intensive to produce than your 'single use' bags, and do not degrade at all. Really, the degradable cornstarch single use bags should have been made mandatory, or calico bags introduced instead. (Although calico is biodegradable, Envirosaks are a great shopping bag BTW - they are made from nylon fabric and not polypropylene, and are strong and long lasting). The green bags are in many ways like cane toads and may well end up being worse for the environment in the long run.

    And whilst the supermarkets say that the bags can be recycled (which it seems they have done a sterling job of advertising if there is only a 4% return rate ) - what is the recycle efficiency of polyprop? Recycling processing can be extremely energy intensive but does not necessarily yield even close to a proportionate result, many materials suffer degradation during reprocessing - rendering them only suitable for an inferior product. (Inferior in this context meaning that the resultant material is of lesser strength and density). So for every bag that is returned for recycling, it's important to know what we get in return.

    Although recycling the green bags is valuable, it is not a justification to a product that possibly should never have been introduced in the first place.
    Last edited by suse; February 2nd, 2009 at 01:47 PM. : I left out a full stop. Yes really, a full stop. OK, OK, I'm a pedant, I admit it.

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Oct 2006
    Adelaide
    726

    I must admit, I've been thinking about these things myself. It's amazing that government policy can completely change industry and make a lot of money for people without having first thought what the best long term option would be, and taking small steps in that direction. I'm guessing supermarkets went for the poly-propylene as opposed to calico or other smarter materials just based on cost. I really wish that the directions government used would promote smart thinking about these things, resulting in new technologies. I like the analogy about the cane toad... I'm in SA too, and have also seemed to collect these reusable bags without buying too many- I definitely have more than I need now. I have a real problem that these seem to have such a short life, too. And the energy that goes into recycling them- whole of life cycle environmental costing really needs to be considered for all the options.

  7. #7
    Life Member

    May 2003
    Beautiful Adelaide!
    2,877

    the degradable cornstarch single use bags should have been made mandatory
    Target ofer these in SA. I always get them. I use them for my kitchen scraps, so it all gets hurled into the compost. DH reckons they take an average of 17 days to decompse in our compost at this time of year.

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Sep 2007
    Off with the fairies
    470

    Thanks for finding this info. Niliac, it pretty much sums up what I have been thinking.
    Quotes originally from SMH:
    The green bags, which are made from non-woven polypropylene, are designed to have a relatively long life but they are not designed to break down in the compost heap, he says
    This is what I was worried about. They will be street litter or land fill for a long time! I would rather a bag that I could put in the worm farm or compost heap after I had used it.


    Coles-Myer takes back its bags for recycling, but a Woolworths representative could not say if a similar recycling program was planned or in place. Recycled bags are shredded and made into products such as outdoor furniture. Australians have so far shown little interest in recycling programs for plastic bags.
    My family of five are quite good recyclers in a week we only use about 1/3 of our wheely bin space, I will be checking out our Coles shop for their recycling bins.

    When I do forget to take my bags with me shopping and I use the plastic bags, I find that they are so weak that the groceries only have about a 50/50 chance of getting safely to the car. These bags are not the answer either.

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Aug 2006
    On the other side of this screen!!!
    11,129

    I'm reminded of how McDonalds changed all the styrofoam packaging because customer perception was that it was environmentally unfriendly when that wasn't actually the case. I wish the cornstarch bags had come in.
    I don't get it Curly. How is styrofoam not environmentally unfriendly? You've made me curious now! LOL