How can breastfeeding be seen as normal if....

[paradise lost]

It's true Sherie, and i can see how much difference toys make, even in my tiny family. DD is often carried in her carrier, even now she's 12kg i'd rather make a new wrap than use her buggy every day. Recently i bought her a soft-bodied baby doll (no bottle!) and the first thing she wanted was her baby tied on with her shawl (she can't talk very much but was watching me put the carrier on to take her out and stuffed the doll down her vest and patted it like i pat her and said "out, out" (i say "are we going out?" while i tie on the wrap)) because to her, aged 15 months, THAT is how babies get about. I hope to have more, so she can see me BFing and i can at least normalise it in my own family.

Bec

[MantaRay]

Sherie, I agre with you. That's part of the point I was trying to make in my first post. For most of us, we have had some bfing influence in our lives as kids, so the fact that dolls had bottles seems irrelevant to us. But there are so many others out there who don't have that experience - Bec's friend's niece sounds like a classic example. For those kids, it is just another part of bottlefeeding being portrayed as the norm. To truly change society so that bfing is portrayed as normal (and this isn't to say that bottle feeding isn't normal, just that bfing is also normal), then perhaps the way dolls are sold is one of the many things that needs to change. Maybe the dolls could come with a breast pump accessory LOL! But there are also many other things that need to change, don't get me started again!!

[Coolabahdee]

Hmmmm I don't see the bottle as the issue, I think it's the education children get from their parents that will sway the child.
Children imatating breastfeeding is cute and normal regardless of whether they lift their top or not, and regardless of how animated the doll is. My 2 and 4 yo's put a ball under her dress or shirt and pretends to be pregnant, They breastfeeds their "babies" and at times will give them a bottle (although usually they just get left sitting on the bottom of the toy box, because it's easier to BF), but ultimately they are imatating me.
My girls use washers and hankies as nappies and baby wrap as a sling, so cute.

I went to a party for a 6 yo boy in DD1 class at the time and the invitation stated that and I forget the actual wording but something like "While we appreciate and are extremely grateful to you if you bring a present along we ask that you respect our no violent toys policy please". I think that's great, that way people don't buy inappropriate toys and can't say they didn't know. I thought I might use their phrasing for my son's b'day party if I had one, one day. I don't condone violent toys,T.V, games and refuse to allow my children to play with them.

[Liz]

Bottles are a part of life and will continue to be so.

hehe - they haven't been here! (I'll qualify that with a 'yet' because I dunno how feeding the next bub is going to go heh).. but DS has had a total of 3 attempts at feeding from bottles in his life, and went straight to a sippy cup for drinks other than boobyjuice. He didn't take to the bottle that well, and well, I'm a lazy expresser, so never had anything to put in a bottle anyway! So all bottles are bundled up with the steriliser in a plastic bag and at the back of the cupboard (what a waste of money! LOL - the midwife at the hospital told me not to bother buying this stuff until I needed it.. ahh well.. )

I reckon if I showed DS a bottle now, he wouldn't know what to do with it! He doesn't know what to do with a dummy either LOL - he chews on the handle!

ETA: I just remembered I was going to mention a bib that came in a pack of cheapo bibs.. it says 'tools of the trade' and has a pic of a nappy pin, a bottle, and a dummy. It'd be interesting to know how many people look at that bib and think the nappy pin is irrelevant.. and who looks at the bib and thinks the bottle & dummy are irrelevant (like me).

[beckles]

well for those who know me i probably don't have to say it but bottles are not a part of our life either, i do have a bottle in the house, though that fits onto the avent pump, i don't have a teat thingy though, it must have had one when i bought it 9 years ago but is long gone now i suppose.
it's funny, every time i post on bb oscar descides it feeding time, the big hulking boy he is now!
beckles

[~Flossie~]

so true Caro.. bottles are a part of life.. for whatever reasons.. they may not exist in one household but they will be in another.. doesnt make anyone a less of a parent..

i too dread the day when i am given a gun/sword violent toy etc.. i just dont like them.. i hope that i have the strength to tell the gift giver that i dont believe in that kind of play .

[Claire]

Emily has a dolly with a bottle and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. She hasn't breastfed her dollies yet, but neither does she identify the bottle as containing any form of milk. She says and asks for water to be placed in there. She's allergic to dairy and doesn't drink an alternative milk. Once her little brother arrives, I imagine she will either take up breastfeeding her dollies, or fingers crossed might even come back to breastfeeding herself!

As for the weapons scenario - I think there's nothing wrong with a water pistol but how can you allow that and not a toy gun? It's very difficult isn't it?

[Liz]

It is hard Claire, my feelings on it are that I don't want realistic weapon toys. If he picks up a stick and plays swords.. I feel that's different to handing him a toy sword to play with.

I've also never seen a kid hold a water pistol and say bang bang your dead.. but I've seen it with toy guns, so I would think they inspire different kinds of play.

[Bathsheba]

I tend to agree with Liz... and the Wiggles use this to good effect with captain Feathersword. Little boys can be like tiger cubs, they want to be able to test their strength etc but you can channel it in safe ways... and as always lots and lots of communication about the consequences of real fighting makes a difference.... although I was surprised to learn that children don't understand the concept of death until they are about 7 (I think that was the age)... slightly off topic... but interesting... anyone heard about that?

[Rouge]

See I think thats where I am weird. I was very much a tom boy as a kid. I had guns, bows & arrows and I even used long paper rolls as light sabers. Whilst we don't have any guns Paris does have a plastic sword and Seth plays with it often. I can remember as a kid if we played "cops & robbers" or "cowboys and indians" no one ever wanted to be the bad guy they always wanted to be the policeman, or the cowboy, or the Jedi LMAO. Our imitation play was always to protect the good and save the people not massacre the innocent. I guess for me it was all part of being a kid, the whole good vs. evil thing. And whilst I never became a police officer (or a Jedi LMAO) I think I am very much against evil, and whilst I might not take out a sword and go and defend my village I do that with proactive support for the good things, and I stand up for my rights and I do think that some of my play helped me to want to do good. I guess you don't see kids pretending to write petitions against whaling or writing letters to the age to complain about how a woman is depicted in modern society.

I totally understand why people don't like it so please don't think I'm trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to share my perspective

*hugs*
Cailin

[Lilly-Pilly]

I'm not sure why, and i'll probably be shot down for saying it, but I don't like watching a child imitate breastfeeding with a doll. Can't even explain my reasons.

Having said that, I didn't enjoy breastfeeding at all, yet I still did it because I knew it was best for DD. I expressed sometimes and was quite happy to do that because it was still breast milk. There are so many people who use bottles to breast feed their babies expressed breast milk. Children don't really see a difference between formula and breast milk in a bottle, its more just a way to feed a baby with whatever is in it.

I loved playing with dolls and bottles as a child, as does my DD and I don't see a problem with it at all.

[Bathsheba]

Cailin, you sound like a real "kick-@rse angel" darl LOL (can't remember the name of the song i quoted from... some 90's pop song that sticks in my head everytime I hear it...) Once again you raised some very good points

[C~Q]

I agree with Cailin, we have swords in the house and toy guns, DS watches cartoon network and plays the games online and I suppose you could call them violent in so much as they are fighting but there is no blood. That is where I draw the line, he can watch movies with fighting, Star Wars, James Bond (not the new one) etc as long as there is no blood just bang - someone falls down IYKWIM? DD plays with her barbies (yes she has them - about 15) and then gets up and plays with the light sabres.

What i'm saying is although I totally respect (and even admire to a certain point) people not having violent toys in the house I have found that I want, for our family, to let the kids have a wide range of toys to choose from and good communication in the home as to what is real and what is make-believe.

The same goes for the OP. I am the youngest child in my family so I never saw anyone bf and I had bottles with my dolls and I can honestly say that when my children were born those memories didn't even enter my head!

[~Flossie~]

everyone has certainly raised some very interesting thoughts in this thread.. its got me thinking.. maybe too much! lol

[Jennifer13]

when Paris plays with her dolls she breastfeeds them but when she's playing with a friend she leaves them breastmilk in a bottle and lets her "friend" feed it with a bottle. Or she'll bring me the bottle and tell me she's "going out" so can I feed her baby whilst she's gone.

OMG Cailin, how grown up is she?? That's just the cutest thing!!

I think Lucy will be more likely to imitate me anyway and although I won't encourage buying dolls with bottles, I think I'll avoid making an issue of it when she does get dolls with bottles.

Atm she's into feeding me with her spoon, so I think that's what the dolls are more likely to get!

[~Flossie~]

Atm she's into feeding me with her spoon, so I think that's what the dolls are more likely to get!

DD is more into feeding her babies with a spoon aswell.. she often tells me to hurry up ( when i am giving DS his food in the high chair) because her babies are hungry too.. Its her turn! lol .. my 3 years old....VERY set in her ways !

[Jennifer13]

although I was surprised to learn that children don't understand the concept of death until they are about 7 (I think that was the age)... slightly off topic... but interesting... anyone heard about that?

We watched a DVD on human development (it was a BBC one, I'll dig out the title later) that showed children coming across a dead animal (think it was a rabbit) and their reactions. At about four they kind of knew it was dead, but didn't understand that death was final, absolute (not trying to open up a philosophical point about after-life, but YKWIM!). They still prodded it and asked why it wouldn't get up or open it's eyes, or when would it wake up? But they did understand death to a certain extent. It's then a question of a child's individual development as to when the concept really takes hold for them. Interestingly, before this age too, when children were asked to group things according to whether they were alive or not (as in a plant, a toy, a fish, other inanimate objects) there was a certain developmental point at which they understood that the plant was living, but the teddy was not. Before this, they'd put the plant in the 'not alive' category and the teddy or doll in the 'alive' category.

Sorry, completely off topic, but it was very interesting!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Well said Cailin, that's what I was trying to get at! I'd love it if DS decided to do battle with the forces of evil, it's what I used to do with my friends too.

Bath - Space's Avenging Angel. We were about a month into an angel-based campaign when it came out so I remember the whole blumming thing!

Back on breast/bottle - giving DS formula top-ups and the odd bit of solid food is the only way I get sleep. I am more than happy bottles exist! However, my background is such that when I was preggers the family bought me bottles and dummies as presents. The odd bottle of formula isn't going to kill DS and TBH I need more then 2-3 hours broken sleep at night. Bottles do have their place, but I do agree that supplying dolls with bottles isn't the greatest idea.

Liz, I hated all the cards with bib, dummy, bottle and nappy pin on! OK, DS had mild reflux (seems to have passed again now, praise God!) so bibs were needed, but otherwise all are a bit pointless. It's all velcro and poppers on nappies these days!

ETA - re: death, I recall my grandad died when I was 6; I certainly understood the concept.