I think she was taken to the toilet by the killer, as opposed to him finding her in the toilet. Considering the sheer number of shopping centre toilets, families and toilet trips each year, 1 death a few years ago is not going to fuss me.
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I think she was taken to the toilet by the killer, as opposed to him finding her in the toilet. Considering the sheer number of shopping centre toilets, families and toilet trips each year, 1 death a few years ago is not going to fuss me.
:dunno: each to their own :)
I suppose that parent may well have felt like that prior to that day too - the likelihood of it happening is tiny, I agree. I guess it comes down to what you feel is right for your child and what they feel comfortable with. If a parent feels uncomfortable sending a 10 year old into the toilets alone, then there should be options available for them to choose.
Pool we went to yesterday had two family change and one disabled/family change, plus then mens and womens - so has a variety of options. In the UK growing up our local pool had a communal area in both mens and womens and also individual cubicles in both areas - so if you wanted privacy you would go in the individual cubicles and generally was only parents with children who went in the communal area. People here are much more open in the changing rooms than in the UK I think - certainly at the pools near me (I remember going swimming with DD when she was maybe 7 months and a naked lady in the shower offering to hold her for me, I was fine so I declined but I think DD might have tried to latch on if I had let the naked lady hold her :-))
I have been to pools in Europe where is all communal getting changed, men and women in all together, and also ones where is just cubicles some large and some small without separate areas.
Public toilets I don't think are in the same category as swimming pools myself but I would judge each situation individually. DD (3) does go into the mens toilets with DH if necessary - often at the MCG, maybe not the most pleasant of places but not somewhere I view as dangerous in anyway.
I think places like pools are put in a hard situation, there isn't an infinite amount of room to put lots of family change cubicles, I don't believe there is any hard evidence to support the fear of letting children age seven and up go into change rooms alone (and really if it is worry about children misbehaving then as parents we should be able to sort that one), and if they did anything would have to suit both men who are taking their daughters to the pool as well as vice versa. So I think the suggestion of over 6 going in their own sex change rooms is a good one, and as long as they make sure the pools are family friendly places (TBH if you didn't have children there is no way I would go to pool on a Saturday/Sunday morning as is mayhem) I don't believe there is danger lurking in the change rooms.
as a life long swimmer, i've never had trouble with changing or children at the pool. Yeah AusGirl they do, but there are a couple of loos to use if you wish (which if i have AF i do) and some peopel shower in their togs, some half togs, some full nuddy. and it's out and changed. I shower in my togs and I get changed in the main area as in the NT it's too hot to get into a little cubicle... makes the shower pointless really! its about knowng how to dress, i take my togs down to my waist, towel dry and whip the bra on quickly and then with the towel around my waist dry the bottom half and pull my undies on. By then you are not wearing anything you dont in the pool (ie a bikini) so i just get dressed normally then.
with my kids, DS goes to the change room at the pools with DH. But otherwise the kids come with me. I probably won't send DD to the mens with her father just cos that is not something she really needs to see and is 'growing up with', whereas boys need to use toilets as men and it's just a normal part of life. I won't send them alone. If no other alternative, they can come with me or we'll go disabled or parents room. If it's me whose got to go and not them, and no options, then I just hold it til i get home. If DH is out alone with DD and there's a need, they'll use the disabled loo or parents room.
I dont ever remember it being an issue as a child (mum has 2 girls and a boy) when out with either parent tho.
what age would i be comfortable sending my son to the male loo on his own?? hhmm it will depend on his maturity level, situation etc and if i can call out to him easily from outside!
i don't beleive parents' rooms are only 'baby' rooms. Most i've been to will have their own loo anyway. so we'll all just trundle off there where we can.
But when do those options stop? I have seen parents of 18 year olds who still treat them like small children? I do understand where people are coming from and understand why they choose options I don't and vice versa. When do we draw the line?
surely this is only a big deal if we decide it is?
6 seems mighty young to sexualise - presuming that's the reason they are not allowed in the change rooms. It's not like it's a bar or massage parlour or something, it's just a room where people go to get changed.
I can understand that kids may become uncomfortable as they get older and their bodies change and so may appreciate some privacy. But in other cultures they don't really have these hang ups. Everyone just does stuff comunally and it aint no thang because that's just what you do. I'm not sure at what age it's considered appropriate for kids to be there, but certainly until they're old enough to do it on their own...?
in any event, pools and other facilities that are offering family activities probably need to think more about actually catering to their needs. if your pool doesn't, then maybe talk to management?
Manned change rooms :p One or two female lifeguards in the ladies and one of two guys in the men's. If you're using the communal area I guess you don't mind people seeing. And then there are people to keep an eye on the kids that are 'too old' for one room but too young for the other :p
As long as you're happy to pay $20 to get into the pool I am sure this would work lol.:
Isn't 6-7 old enough to get changed on their own? My kids aren't that age, but we certainly used to get changed at swimming on our own from this sort of age and younger (hence situations where we got home and mum realized we hadn't put our knickers on!, or left half our clothes at the pool). I am sure in the past there was never any notices, because there was never any need for them because children were getting changed on their own well before it was ever an issue. Don't 6-7 year olds go swimming with school and get changed independently?
Changing rooms normally are manned for free by other patrons, in general most people will keep an eye out on children who are on their own.:
Children with schools have a teacher keeping an eye on them :) Well we did at school. My 7 year old can't tie her own shoe laces yet, so isn't really that independant yet.
I think that is people's main concerns isn't it? Sexual harassment or assault. 6 seems very young to be on their own getting changed with a bunch of strangers.:
As DS approaches 6 I know that I am feeling very uncomfortable going into the men's change room on his own. I also am not comfortable with him going to a men's toilet on his own at this age. In terms of swimming with school, they aren't on their own, they are with a bunch of similar age boys and probably a teacher/parent so I don't see that as being the same :dunno:
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Ive just been thinking about what to do with the girls DD1 is 5 and up until now we have been changing them in the viewing area. DH normally takes them so he does the getting dressed. They do have poncho towel things so when I go tend to leave that on and take their bathers off and put nickers on then take the poncho towel off and finish drying them and get them properly dressed.
It is a swimming school thpugh so all parents/grandparents and kids
I think another factor to this conundrum is family makeup. I have children of both genders. They shower or bathe together most days and DH and I often jump in also. DS has seen a fanny every day of his life, just as DD's regularly see a penis. Quite frankly, my children pay no mind whatsoever to another person's nudity - seen it all before. However, we had a family over a few weeks ago which is made up of mum dad and three little girls. The kids ran around outside, got hugely muddy and decided to have a bath before putting on pj's. DS chose to shower alone in the same bathroom and those three little girls (aged 2-6) were quite fascinated by his penis. They were pointing and giggling, and the youngest tried to touch him. (DS moved away and said 'that's my private part, you don't touch someone else's private parts!). So, I know that I could comfortably take my DS into a female change room (he is 6 almost 7) and he would not even look at the naked women and girls, but those little girls in a male change room would probably be somewhat overwhelmed! I don't take DS into female change rooms only because it may make others uncomfortable. We use the family change room, discreetly change under a towel or wrap up and change at home.
As for the toilets, I agree that it is rare for a child to be murdered in a public toilet. Unfortunately, it is NOT terribly uncommon for a lone child to be inappropriately approached or touched in a public toilet, usually the male toilets. For those looking for statistics, I have none. I work for an emergency service and over the years I have attended several cases of children who have been assaulted in public toilets. My brother, when he was 11, was held up against a wall and touched by a man in the Myer toilets. It is my choice not to send my children into a public toilet alone, and if our only other option is the disabled toilet, then that's what we use. I can honestly say that not once have I opened the toilet door to find that we have delayed a disabled person.
What exactly is a helicopter parent? One who chooses to be more vigilant than another? I think it's a ridiculous term, but go ahead and call me one... I still won't be sending my little kids to a public toilet alone.
I suppose I just work on an evidence based approach, and based on what I have seen in the change rooms and how DH says the mens change rooms are, I don't see them as places full of danger but full of other parents and children (assuming you go when the pools are busy which probably would be the case with older children talking about as would be at school during quieter times) and people look out for each other. I suspect anyone looking even slightly suspicious in change rooms would be quickly reported. For me the benefits of encouraging independence by letting children get changed on their own outweigh any perceived risk.:
I don't think staffing changing rooms is the answer at all, apart from the expense I don't think having people there specifically to watch over people getting changed is a bit odd, and is the sort of thing that is more likely to lead to problems (abuse more likely to come from people who are familiar/known rather than strangers) than solve anything.
I do think public toilets are different to changing rooms at pools, due to the way they are used and the fact people are in and out. Is up to the parent, and I wouldn't call it helicopter parenting if don't let children go to public toilets on their own, however I do think that if parents find it appropriate then that is also fine - I was quite shocked recently about a guy in Queensland being charged/threatened with being charged for letting his 10 year old go into a shopping center and buy sushi and use the toilets while he waited in the car (car had trailer on he didn't want to leave).
This pretty much sums up my attitude as well.:
My 5 year old, almost 6, can take more than an hour and a half to get dressed so not really an option for us.:
They have teachers and other parents in there with them helping to get dressed.:
At our swimming pool, we have a communal area in the ladies (don't know about the mens) as well as two small cubicles with doors accessible from the communal area. Generally, we arrive a little earlier than swimming lessons so will often get the whole toilets to ourselves. We also swim for about 10 minutes after the lesson, having fun, by which time most of the families have left or leave as we start changing.
I ensure that the boys are under control and don't wander or look around too much. I talk to them constantly so they are focused on me or their brother. My boys are 5 and 3. They will not be dressing on their own in public changerooms for many years to come. When my oldest is bigger, he will dress himself (or I will help) in the cubicle while his brother dresses with me outside. I will let him choose when that happens.
On Saturday mornings when we go swimming, it is almost purely for lessons (with only a small area for general swimming) and all kids are under about 8. I have noticed some of the girls use towels to cover themselves when they are getting dressed. If I see this, I steer the boys to the other side of the room and turn them so their backs are to the covered girls. I am conscious that the girls want privacy but am not willing to risk my childrens safety by sending the oldest into the mens changeroom. Also these girls have the options of the cubicles if they feel they want privacy.
Surprisingly, I have only seen the cubicles used once in the years I have been going there and that was for an adult swimmer who was doing laps.
I can understand that some people say the odds are very low that they will get hurt or scared by someone in the other changeroom if I am not there. However, I am not willing to risk their safety when I believe I have suitable alternatives. After all, my children are still too young to be sexualised or see the sexual entities of others. IMO nudity is not sexual in this context.
Hehehehe - I think the idea is to still have stalls in the family change room - kinda like the nice big family friendly parents rooms that some of the big shopping centres have - one big area -but with stalls/area's that are individually curtained off or something.:
Our family room is not communal, it's the disabled/family room.
It has 1 shower, a toilet & a drop down change table.
Ours is pretty dingy (the rest of the pool has recently been refurbished)
They also have a family room without showers that just has curtains to get changed in.
Sent from my iPhone, more than likely while I should be doing something else!
Our pool says 6 years old too. I think you could get boys to at least 8 before they need to be in boys change rooms only. They are too little before that to be in there on their own I reckon
The flip side to that is Trill, that my (then) 8 year old DD and her friends would be mortified if a "boy" that was their peer was changing in the same room as them.
We have a lax attitude to nudity in this house (although DP doesnt go nude in front of her given the stepdad thing) but she wouldnt like changing in front of boys one bit!!!
True, but some boys at 8 are still so vunerable that I wouldn't like them to be in a changeroom on their own at that age if there was no one to take them in there. 9 times out of 10 I am with the kids on my own so DS1 often had to get changed on his own. In the town where I live it's not a problem, but in a larger town or city I would be really weary of letting him get changed on his own. But then we have a really casual attitude to nudity as well - even though DS1 is 11 we're all still comfortable being naked in front of each other still and he still bathes with his sisters. I imagine that this will end soon though as he starts puberty.:
It's a tough one... But then there are no changerooms at the beach and we all manage!
I assume you're all referring to the little girl in Perth. She was actually sent to the toilets alone because she was out shopping with her uncle and older brother. They were waiting for her at the top of the little corridor thing that toilets come off in shopping centres. She was actually nabbed in the toilet where she was brutally murdered.:
1 death a few years ago is going to "fuss me" a great deal. This poor little girl died terribly. Her brother and uncle found her and I can't begin to imagine the guilt they both feel. The horror her parents will forever feel. The individual that did this was suspected in a sexual assault previously but due to lack of evidence the case was not proceeded with. Who knows how many other little people may or may not have been unfortunate enough to come across him.
So, while it doesn't happen often, but just once is too often for me to take the risk with the most precious thing on this earth. If that makes me a helicopter parent, then bring on my pilot's licence.
Just want to share some love - fantastic post!:
So, while it doesn't happen often, but just once is too often for me to take the risk with the most precious thing on this earth. If that makes me a helicopter parent, then bring on my pilot's licence.
That is your choice and I respect that, just as you should respect that others see other situations as more risky. I am more concerned about what males are in the house that my DD's will visit, statistically that is a greater and very real risk. If we look at ever risk we may as well lock our children in boxes, but then that is a risk in itself. Life in it self is a risk, we all do what we can to navigate those risks.:
I do respect that Astrid, and I'm sorry if my post came across as argumentative. I still remember vividly when that little girl was murdered, and I have a friend who was involved in the prosecution so its a case that is very real to me. As you say, sadly (and scarily) awful things are more often than not done by those that our children should be safest with. I am always going to be wary of males within our extended family and circle of friends. I find it very sad that that's the way it has to be, but anyone who things otherwise is I think being naive. I can't do much in that respect though except be watchful and hopefully teach my children well as to what is appropriate behaviour, as well as ensure they know they can always come to me about anything at all. Its not like I can cut all men from my children's lives.
The risk, however small, that my daughters could be in danger using public toilets is a risk that I can easily negate though.
Thanks all for the interesting debate. The male and female changerooms at our learn-to-swim school are open - there are shower cubicles but there's barely enough room to swing a cat in them. You really have no choice but to change your child side-by-side other kids.
Must say, when I posted my thinking had nothing to do with sexual harrasment/inappropriate dealings with a child etc. It was really more about the comfort level of other girls getting changed when my four year old son is in their company, and at what point I should stop exposing my son to naked girls and women (at least until he's well and truly legal!!) I've not had any reason to worry - it hasn't been an issue at all - but seeing the mum dress her daughter from behind a towel just got me to thinking. However, it's a natural progression of the debate to consider child predators. I do think children are probably less at risk in a learn-to-swim environment but I guess it can happen anytime, anywhere unfortunately.
Re: taking my boys to the toilet ... I use either the women's loos, parent's toilets (when available), or when it's signed for disabled/baby change I'll use that toilet. Fortunately our major shopping centre has a parents room, so that's where we usually go and that's where I'll take my boys for a looong time to come.
I think that in part it's up to our children. DS1 doesn't like using the female facilities any more but I don't want to send him into the men's on his own so we often use family or disabled facilities. In places where there are less people coming and going I will send him in with his brother and wait outside. I know that it's not likely that my children will be abducted or murdered by a random in a toilet but both DH and I have been affected by random violence committed by strangers so I'm not as confident as many that it won't happen to me.
At the pool we go to for lessons there is a communal showering area. Some kids strip off and some stay in their swimmers and there are cubicles beside the showers so those who want privacy can have it.