environmental issues - cloth or disposables??

[Nai]

MCN's are Modern Cloth Nappies ie. the fitted styles, All in Ones (AIO's) or pocket style.

This is a quote from Indira Naidoo - journalist

"Traditional nappies can take up to 400 years to break down," explains Naidoo. "About 95 percent of Australian parents use disposable nappies, which make up about one percent of the 22 million tonnes of landfill waste each year."

So yes 1% doesn't sound like much but it is still 22,000 tonnes of landfill each year. And depending on the type of nappy they can take up to 400 years to break down.

Most of the research satying there is little difference environmentally assumes the old style flat nappies that require soaking, bleaching, hot washing and drying in a clothes dryer. However if you use the MCN's that only require dry bucketing, no bleaching, cold wash and line dry then most of that imact is cancelled out.

[moki]

There was a study done some time ago in the UK that attempted to compare the environmental cost of cloth vs disposable over the lifecycle of the nappy. This is the study that gets quoted a lot as having the finding that 'cloth nappies have an equal environmental impact to disposables'.

I had a read of the report from the study, and while it's the largest study i'm aware of in this area, it's not the greatest that could be done. For example, the impact of having disposables in landfill is not included (so it's not actually looking at the full lifecycle). There are other flaws in the study that I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think they've been covered on previous threads on this topic.

Anyway, even though this study is quoted as evidence that disposables not environmentally worse than cloth, there is also a part in the report (way down in the conclusion) that talks about reducing environmental impact. With disposables, you can reduce environmental impact by lobbying the manufacturers to reduce the environmental impact of their production. With cloth you can dry-pail, use cold water, air-dry and use less detergent.

I thought it was interesting that this study that is quoted by disposable manufacturers and others to highlight that disposables aren't that bad actually helped me decide to use cloth! It just seems so much easier (and more effective) to not use chemical soakers, press the 'cold water' button on the washing machine and hang nappies in the sun than to write lots of letters and petitions and organise lobby groups!

[Visitor7]

To convert to cloth, you need to work out what type of mcn (modern cloth nappy) will suit you. ie: pocket, aio's, fitted, flats. If you get the best style of nappy for your needs, the mcn will work really well.
I have 2 kids in cloth (well, one is being tt at the moment, so one in cloth during the day, 2 in cloth at night).
For Nina, my eldest, I was using Baby Beehinds Bamboo fitted. These are an all-in-one which require a cover. They only need a cover if you're putting clothes on over the nappy. While we're at home, we don't use a cover. These nappies are fantastic night nappies as well. They are very absorbent, and you can boost them as much as you like to prevent leaks. I've only had leaks once while using these, and that was because the cover I used (at night) wasn't big enough. Nothing to do with the nappy.

For Emily, I use a mixture of baby beehinds bamboo fitted, baby beehinds magicalls (and all-in one) and itti bitti d'lish (allin-one). The all-in-ones don't require a cover. They are a great day time nappy. They don't absorb like the bamboo fitted ones do, so you'll only get 3-4 hours out of the all-in-one before they need changing. But they are a trim fit, so fit better under clothes.

I used flats when Nina was a baby. And there is a huge difference between flats and mcn. With flats, as soon as they wee, the whole nappy is wet and needs changing. With mcn, this isn't the case. When the wee, it doesn't feel wet, and it doesn't leak. It'll start feeling damp after a few wees, but it doesn't drip with wee, iykwim.

[runnermum]

great replies!!

Re Landfill times: 400 years - yes, IF a plastic bag is used to put the disposable inside - this GREATLY increases the time for a disposable nappy to break down. Other website called 'come clean' quote that "Estimates of exactly how long it takes for a conventional disposable nappy to decompose range from 100 years to 500 years".......anyway, they are all ESTIMATES as we are not around for this long to really find out !!!

Now, I have been thinking of Bio degradable nappies - but there is a problem with SOME of our Landfills in Australia - SOME do not have access to air, water or light - and the bacteria to break this down needs these things. Also, taking off taps and wrapping in brown bags in the ideal landfill greatly reduces the nappy in a quicker manner.

I Must look more on this website.

It is all very interesting! thanks ladies for your continued experiences on this.

Still I am confused as to WHAT MCN to use (now I know the what this means!!)... do you suggest a few different ones? If so, give me a suggestion of a sample pack or starter pack PLEASE !!!!!!!!

[Jaapie]

Sorry, couldn't resist adding my two cents!! This is such a tricky subject isn't it?

I've read (can't say that I've researched it to confirm though) that the gel component of the disposables takes between 50 and 400 years to break down. That, plus the sheer volume of landfill (with all the chemicals leaching into the soil and eventually waterways) convinced me to use MCN (Modern Cloth Nappies - ie: fitted not cotton flats). What is it . . . 800 million disposables in Australia every year? Something like that.

Cotton IS a shocking crop environmentally, but I think many of the MCN's are made from man-made products. Bamboo is much better but then there's the carbon emissions involved in importing! Did you know that there is a cup of crude oil in every disposable?

I do what most of the other ladies have said - use half the amount of a friendly detergent, wash in cold, etc. And I use cloth wipes to clean their bottoms - much more efficient than the commercial ones. I just chuck them in the nappy bucket and wash them together and we don't soak our nappies. We do 2-3 loads a week which is a lot extra I guess. The other down-side with cloth for me, is using the drier in wet-weather. This is partly laziness on my part, I will admit.

My feeling is that it comes down to using more water with cloth, which is perhaps more of a short-term problem. Disposables create a much longer-term, wider-reaching problem. And the 'degradable' disposables are imported, again with a carbon cost. Finally, the knowledge that my MCN's will not stop at one child helped to convince me.

I've been meaning to ask Dr Karl or David Suzuki about this for ages!

Good luck with your decision and your new bub!

PS - sorry to be a wet blanket . . . it's illegal to run a hose from your machine into the garden. You need filters to remove bacteria from the water as these can build up in the soil and be harmful.

[Livinthedream]

Hey Runnermum, I was in exactly the same boat as you re "how do I know what I want?"
I just went direct to the manufacturers of the different types of MCNs and most of them have like a 50$ startup pack. I got Baby beehinds, cause lots here seem to use em and Itti Bittis and greenkids and some others. Prob so far, I have spent 200 bucks on about 8 nappies and some covers. I am really lucky as cost isnt such an issue for me. But if it is, it may pay to wait till bubs is born so you have some idea of the shape of your kid. Cause TBH they vary heaps in length and "puffiness" so I am not totally sure that some of the outer covers will be totally interchangable with the different brands.
There are shops that sell them, look em up on net and maybe have a go see.
IMO the minkee is the loveliest fabric, the PUL does feel quite synthetic and I wonder about the itchiness of wool.
It is pretty hard to resist em when you see and feel, they are sooo cute and soft. (they are the ONLY baby item I have gotten obsessed with, bugger the toys and clothes. )

[Junglemum]

From the choice study- I find this info a little outdated, it was written in 2003.

For years there?s been an ongoing debate over which type of nappy has the least impact on the environment. While it might seem clearcut that reusable cloth nappies would be a more environmentally friendly option than disposables, in fact there are environmental costs associated with using both.

Many conflicting studies have been published, but unfortunately not many independent ones. Most research has been funded or sponsored by a company or organisation with a barrow to push, be it disposable nappy companies or environmental groups

I have read many conflicting studies- i guess this is the reason why. I have read some that says there is no difference, and i have a so read alot that suggests cloth is more environmentally friendly. I am more inclined to think that the studies showing cloth has less environmental impact are closer to the truth, as the big disposable manufacturers have alot to loose.

It takes more raw materials to make disposables than cloth nappies. They also have an obvious impact on waste disposal and landfill ? in 1999 it was estimated that using an average of six nappies a day over two and a half years produces about 734kg of solid waste. Multiply that by the number of disposable-wearing babies born in Australia each year and that?s a lot of disposable nappies taking up space in landfill.

For just one baby you?re talking about roughly 8000 nappies. And while it?s possible the weight of the disposables themselves may have decreased, the number of people using them has increased.

Parts of a disposable nappy are potentially biodegradable, but whether they do biodegrade and how long it takes will depend on the type of landfill, and whether bacteria needed for decomposition have access to air, water and light.

Cloth nappies also have an environmental cost. Growing cotton requires the use of pesticides and water, although new strains of genetically modified cotton claim to reduce the use of chemicals.

Like someone else pointed out most MCN are made from bamboo and hemp these days, so a little outdated.

However, the most significant environmental impact of cloth nappies occurs during their use, rather than production or disposal. Washing and cleaning them requires water and energy that you don?t use with disposable. You can minimise this by using cold water to wash and by drying on the line.

Unfortunately the expensive option of nappy services is probably the best from an environmental perspective, due to economies of scale. As a cheaper alternative and environmental compromise, you might consider using cloth nappies at home and disposables when you?re out.

The other thing to consider is that if you do chose cloth you get a choice in your environmental impact, (washing in cold, using sustainable unbleached fabrics etc.) whereas if you use sposies, there isn't much you can do.

I chose cloth b/c it sits better with me, but i certainly don't judge people for using disposables. Whatever works for you. I have an article form ozclothnappies, not sure if i can post a link to there so will pm you. Good luck with your reseach.

[HotI]

PS - sorry to be a wet blanket . . . it's illegal to run a hose from your machine into the garden. You need filters to remove bacteria from the water as these can build up in the soil and be harmful.

Hi

My understanding is that it is legal to run a hose from your machine into the garden, and you don't require filters. However, the water must be subsurface, eg under mulch/direct to soil. You can't have grey water coming out sprinklers or sitting on the surface.

It is recommended not to use grey water for root crops (potatoes/carrots) in the vegie garden at all, and not within one week of harvesting with above ground vegies. And the water should be subsurface, going straight to the soil and not wetting the plants above ground.

You can't use black water on the garden at all. Black water is anything from the kitchen or toilet. Nappy washing water from poo-y nappies would be considered black water, if poo matter was still on the nappies.

K

[Maruschke]

If you re-use cloth nappies for more than one child, surely this tips the scales back towards cloth? I have been given unwanted (new) flats, and used flats, so now I have about 60. Seems crazy not to use them. I will only dry pail them, wash in cold with environmentally friendly wash and hang on the line. So I guess that is about as green as I could be. Not only green, but very cheap! These unwanted nappies may as well be used, they have already been made so the cost to the environment is done regardless of whether they are used or not.

Thats my two cents anyway .

[runnermum]

Jaapie !!

I just LOVE your honesty....much appreicated. My main reason for posting this issue was about WATER consumption - and just as you have said, MCN or other fitted or flat nappies are going to use MORE water than disposables - because obviously, we don't wash disposables!! And the production of cotton?? yes, wow, it takes HUGE amounts of water to produce, but as you say there are other man made alternatives and bamboo - have to look into that.

Yes, also, I was a bit conerned and wondered about just connecting a hose from your washing machine to the garden - I am certainly very worried about faecal matter and very nasty bacteria hanging around the garden and lawns - this build up in the soil is very dangerous I would think, so a proper grey water system seems to be a must. I would think that even water from the rinse cycle would contain many bacteria...again, we must look more into this.

STill I am keen on some sort of Fitted nappy........what exactly is an ALL in ONE nappy? Does this mean no liners or covers are needed? IF I am interested in a nappy that is non disposable but does not need liners, covers and is realiable in terms of limited leakage, what would you reccommend??

i have some fitted cloth nappies from my #1 bub and a few Weennees (for newborns) but cannot say I was overjoyed by them for ease of use but they were OK.

[runnermum]

This thread just keeps getting better!! thanks heaps!

Shellsbells - I noticed you live on the Gold Coast - that is where we will be living by Dec - bubs will be born in January! So what shops do you reccommend I go to in order to look at these different types of nappies? My first bub was (and still is as a 5 year old) on the skinny, lean side - so will this be a problem with some nappies?

Falguni - yeah, I have 'issues' with these studies too - IF you wash in HOT water, use soakers, and use machine dry, then I DO believe disposables would probably be better or AT LEAST the same.

So what is the environmental impact in producing bamboo and hemp for nappies?? anyone know?? what other fibres are Modern Fitted nappies made from? I ask because, again, cotton production in Australia from what I believe is terrible in terms of water useage.......water to me is THE most precious resource I want to conserve.

[Olive]

Jaapie !!

And the production of cotton?? yes, wow, it takes HUGE amounts of water to produce, but as you say there are other man made alternatives and bamboo - have to look into that.

i find it very amusing when people constantly complain about how much water goes into making cotton, yet most people buy cotton clothing, towels, sheets etc EVERYDAY but thats not an issue, but cloth nappies are!?!!! im pretty sure my cloth nappies get used more than the clothes my daughter needs every season!!

not having a go at you runnermum so please dont think i am ,

i just get sooooooo sick of hearing that cotton is bad to grow but the subject only ever gets bought up when discussing cloth nappies im pretty sure that most of us perfer cotton sheets not cheap polyester ones!!

[Pretty Butterfly]

I have only just switched to MCN, and there is a great starter thread in the Nappy section, sorry I dont know how to do a link to it...

There are heaps of types, and you'll find one that suits you. A lot of nappy sites on the web have starter kits with different types in one package, so you try a few, and then buy the type you like the best!!

My own situation...
a 2 yr old in a night nappy
a 1 yr old full time nappy
a soon newborn, full time nappy

So I wanted a All In One, so I didn't have to worry about a cover as well, and I got One Size Fits All nappies, so each nappy I bought would fit all 3 kids, so I didn't have to buy all different sizes. This was just the best for me.

You'll have your own requirements, then find the ones that suit you!!! Good Luck!!!

[Livinthedream]

Hey Runnermum,
I went to a warehouse thingy opposite the brickworks in ferry rd to start with, but he only had baby beehinds and another brand I cant remember that lots of people said were crap. (it is a brand they sell at chemists, Pea Pods maybe?) They looked pretty flimsy to me but I got 1bbh from him. He has sold business and the new owners are relocating it to burleigh (I think)
Then I went to a place just off kingston rd at woodridge. That lady was lovely and I chatted to her for ages and she had pretty much all of the main brands, although there werent heaps, but it did give me a chance to check em all out. I got some from her. Google mcn+retail+qld For the rest I just googled modern cloth nappies and there are places that sell all brands and then the individual manufacturers. Most of the start up deals I had to go direct for and they are a 1 per customer type thing. They all took C/card and nothing took more than a week to arrive.
I am at the nth end of GC (oxenford) but we are hoping to be in canungra by the time bubs arrives. I am due end of march.
As this is number one, I have no idea what will work for me, but I have been following Purplemumma pretty closely cause she has 4 or 5 kids and has just started MCNs in last day or so. She has most brands. There is a thread at the moment about putting kane in them. Watch this space.......

[Livinthedream]

He He, speak of the devil................

[runnermum]

AJP - have to agree with you there re the growing of cotton - yes, we have cotton towels and clothes and sheets but must also say that as an athlete, I tend to buy synthetic fabrics a lot - better for wicking away moisture.and most of this cotton product don't come from Australia !!..but nevertheless, very valid point there. Bit like vegetarians and vegans wearing leather shoes, bags etc!! But we won't go there... Also what is the point of using cloth if you don't compost, recycle, have 1min showers, install grey water system - I suppose i am saying most individuals (particularly here in this thread are DOING A great thing - so well done!)

Hey, just heard of Safeties biodegradable nappies from Falguni - thanks - sounds interesting - website on Natures child...

[Snacks]

Yeah, I was going to suggest you have a look at environmentally friendly sposies. Sounds to me like you're leaning a little more towards sposies anyway?
I think we can back and forth forever about which type of nappy is better or worse for the environment. Thing is, both have an impact, because bringing another person into the world has an impact. Only you can decide what's going to sit better with you.

Also what is the point of using cloth if you don't compost, recycle, have 1min showers, install grey water system

I personally think if you can do just one little thing at a time you're making a massive difference.

[runnermum]

thanks heaps Snacks for your reply,
yeah, we can go on this subject forever, but like you so cleverly said and what both my hubby and I are thinking is that IF we continue to save water by having a tank, grey water system, flushing only for number 2s, got our 5 star front loader washing machine, use buckets in the showers etc, etc as well as all the other engery saving things we try to do (lights etc) then hey, I am not feeling bad about considering the use of disposables.

Actually, I think I am still back where I started. Use disposables at night and when travelling, particularly when bubba is very young, and use MCN/pockets during the day.

therefore still interested in getting a few NEW MCN/pockets so suggestions are always welcome!!