60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

[Ginger]

No. I don't know anyone that unschools.

[Tegam]

Wow a little sad at the lack of respect of choice in this thread, something I haven't missed while being off Bellybelly!

JF you explain yourself very well, I've been informed and inspired by your words. My family has had some huge ups and downs with schooling. I have often thought that I'd like to homeschool but m DH doesn't agree. Does that mean he can't see it's value no way. I feel that we unschooled the children until they were of school age and we use a lot of those principles you mentioned to guild and enable their interests as much as possible outside of school. We are so beautifully fortunate that our school is a pilot school for a new teaching system. And from what you have said it uses a lot of the I unschooling approaches. We call it discovery learning. Where the children are given an exciting box of information and they take from it what they want and take their learning In whatever direction they want. This term was 'out of space" and wow the different places the kids have ended up is amazing. And best thing they share they info with each other so they are learning the skills of how important their peers are as well as adults!

ANY ANY ANY way a child is raised, happily, engaged and excited to learn works for me!

[emmalee86]

I agree Tegam, very sad to see the lack of respect and understanding of people's choices..I thought BB was a place that we could all come and talk and ask for advice and learn from each other and support one another and not have to defend our decisions as parents.

I have learnt a lot from this thread and it has definitely made me do some serious thinking so thank you to everyone who has spent so much time in participating!!

I am very interested in unschooling and this thread is the first I have ever heard of it to be honest but it sounds absolutely fantastic and I will definitely be reading more into it - although practically speaking it would be near on impossible to implement wholly in our family a lot of the principles that have been discussed are appealing and could be applied in a limited fashion outside of school!

Unschooling sounds like lots of fun, I wish I was unschooled

[Arcadia]

JF thanks for all the fabulous info.

I actually like the to and fro of this discussion because it's essentially the debate raging in my head. As I have posted before, I'm struggling with school for dd. it's only her first term, but I have already had dd say things like 'I don't like reading', writing is too tricky, I just want to draw and not do xxx'. This is from a child who can read words already, has excellent writing and loves doing book work.

From a family perspective I hate the rushed mornings, and the ratty tired afternoons. I am not able to participate in dd's learning like I want to be because she is out of the house so much.

I love the school and the learning philosophy it has (very emilio reggio) but I don't think school is for every child or every family. To have a blanket yes or no attitude to school/unschooling denies the variety of family and child experiences.

Am I going to homeschool? Not right now, but it's a wait and see thing for me. I will see how dd goes. i also disagree with the idea of 5 year olds playing largely unsupervised because they tend to need help negotiating social situations still.

I recognise school is a gift and not everyone has the privilege of free education like australia. But I also recognise it is an old institution that has limitations, and it does not fit every child.

[Jellyfish]

I have really enjoyed sharing and I'm glad others have enjoyed my words too. Thank you for all the kind words, respect, understanding but especially questions! They help me too, to cement and solidify my thoughts as I try to communicate and explain them to others. I appreciated what you said Arcadia, I don't believe unschooling (or homeschooling) would suit every family; some couldn't, some shouldn't and some wouldn't. If somebody is not into the idea then that's not going to be a good choice for them and their family. I think there will always be a place for schools within society and therefore they should be brilliant.

I share not to sway the world but because many people are simply unaware of their options and choices; and whatever they decide after hearing my (or others) thoughts then at least they are making a more informed decision. They have words and ideas they can further research and consider. They are making an intentional active choice rather then operating under an assumed necessity. And that was me, I was unaware and I have so much gratitude for the person who helped me understand my options (thank you Heaven). I think BB to me has always been about that, understanding our choices and our rights, empowering people with knowledge to make informed decisions and that is what I hope I have contributed in this thread

As an aside the 60mins episode will feature Dayna Martin and her family. They actually flew over to America to interview and shoot within their home. I think there will also be at least one Australian family, they did do a call out in some of the groups I am within for those interested in interviewing and I assume they were able to find someone. I will be watching with a hopeful heart.

[Heaven]

And that was me, I was unaware and I have so much gratitude for the person who helped me understand my options (thank you Heaven).

Nawww you're so lovely. Come to me for all your crazy ideas! LOL. It is just such a freeing decision for me (homeschooling that is, I'm not sure if I'd call myself an unschooler, I don't know, we do a lot of natural learning and I like that term better). I am just loving life, we all are. There is no stress, or pressure, or rush and my kids are thriving. That's the kind of life I always wanted. I have always been about doing what works, and this is what works for our family.

[nothing2lose]

I'm going to be upfront and say what I think you already know I'm not a fan on homeschooling or unschooling at all. However, what you do with regards to your children's education is your business. I respect your choices, even if I don't agree with them.

I do have a couple of genuine questions though. I'm not wanting a debate. I'm just honestly curious. So here goes...

One of the issues I have is that in many homeschool environments I see (particularly those which are religion based) children are 'kept from' those who are different. Even when it's not a conscious choice on the parents' part, they naturally spend the vast majority of their time with people who have the same attitudes/backgrounds as them (ie. their friends and family). Socialisation involves mixing with people who are your polar opposite, people you don't like and who don't like you, people who will antagonize you and make your life difficult and learning how to thrive in that environment. School, like life, is a huge melting pot of personalities, beliefs, values, backgrounds, attitudes, behaviours, ect. When you go there, you learn how to negotiate, and thrive in that every day. When I hear homeschoolers say, "little Joey isn't missing out on socialisation because we play with friends, or go to a homeschool co-op, etc every week", my immediate thought is that little Joey is missing out by not co-existing with people who don't like him, or who don't share his attitudes on life. Joey is being brought up in a protective social bubble. A controlled environment masquerading as educational freedom. How do you allow for this?

My second question is, what would you do if your child/ren turned around and blamed your educational choices for them for them not being able to pursue a career path they wanted to pursue?? I realise this can happen to any parent, whether they homeschool or not, but some of the homeschooling parents I have come across (albeit mostly in the media) are as dumb as lumps and couldn't teach a dog to sit (NOT REFERRING TO YOU JF ) I imagine their children are going to be woefully unprepared for formal tertiary study.

[Tegam]

Wow n2l I don't think I have ever seen a homeschoolers irl or on tv that seems dumb......


I wonder about little things... Our school doesn't have tables and chairs..... What's high school going to be like going from such informal dynamic learning to traditionally boring and structured classrooms.....

N2l my children could blame me for not sending them to a top private school or being homeschooled. I think if your kids have that sort of resentment towards you then something has gone wrong in your relationship well before then

[nothing2lose]

Tegam, I guess I am thinking of those in the US who also stockpile rifles because the government is trying to take away their freedoms. Survivalists, fundamentalists, creationists.... There are millions of them! I belong to some FB groups (nothing to do with education) and they are there in all their glory, appalling grammar and spelling, incoherent arguments, wacko ideas and all I suspect that, in the US anyway, the majority of homeschooling is not done by perfectly reasonable, (ironically) highly educated, middle class people with gentle parenting backgrounds. It's done by those who want to keep the secular, worldly wolves from the door and their own children from independent thought and from being tainted by outside influences.

[Ginger]

At the end of the day, it's not anyone on bb that you need to explain or justify your choices to- it's your children. One day they will ask you why you have done this to them. One day they will want you to explain yourself.

[Jellyfish]

I'm going to be upfront and say what I think you already know I'm not a fan on homeschooling or unschooling at all. However, what you do with regards to your children's education is your business. I respect your choices, even if I don't agree with them.

I do have a couple of genuine questions though. I'm not wanting a debate. I'm just honestly curious. So here goes...

One of the issues I have is that in many homeschool environments I see (particularly those which are religion based) children are 'kept from' those who are different. Even when it's not a conscious choice on the parents' part, they naturally spend the vast majority of their time with people who have the same attitudes/backgrounds as them (ie. their friends and family). Socialisation involves mixing with people who are your polar opposite, people you don't like and who don't like you, people who will antagonize you and make your life difficult and learning how to thrive in that environment. School, like life, is a huge melting pot of personalities, beliefs, values, backgrounds, attitudes, behaviours, ect. When you go there, you learn how to negotiate, and thrive in that every day. When I hear homeschoolers say, "little Joey isn't missing out on socialisation because we play with friends, or go to a homeschool co-op, etc every week", my immediate thought is that little Joey is missing out by not co-existing with people who don't like him, or who don't share his attitudes on life. Joey is being brought up in a protective social bubble. A controlled environment masquerading as educational freedom. How do you allow for this?

My second question is, what would you do if your child/ren turned around and blamed your educational choices for them for them not being able to pursue a career path they wanted to pursue?? I realise this can happen to any parent, whether they homeschool or not, but some of the homeschooling parents I have come across (albeit mostly in the media) are as dumb as lumps and couldn't teach a dog to sit (NOT REFERRING TO YOU JF ) I imagine their children are going to be woefully unprepared for formal tertiary study.

Ask away, I will do my best to answer.

Homeschoolers are not a homogeneous group so even if we were only mixing with them (we're not), there is diversity. There are single parents, same-sex parents, blended families, low income, high income, different cultures and different religions. There are a lot of children with extra needs too (my eldest is one of them). I went to a top end religious private school, that can be a pretty insular environment.

I am going to share a couple of examples, they do involve Heaven and her children. I worry when I speak about our friendship and our girls friendship often that people assume it is the only one we have, it isn't that; it is that she is here too, she can chime in, she is aware I am sharing so I feel more comfortable talking about it then if I was discussing somebody who isn't a part of BB and might not want to be discussed here.

So we have different religious beliefs, her family and mine. We have been to their house many times, they have children's books that are of a religious nature, I have read them to my children and that is a way in which that religion has been opened up to my children for us to discuss and explore. And I am happy to do that, I will actively be doing that (Study of Religion was one of my most favourite classes in high school, I adore learning about others, about history and culture and religion is weaved through all of that). And it works the same for other cultures too, my DD1 has a friend who was born in America and we were able to celebrate thanksgiving with them last year and I will always be open to that, to finding opportunities to experience different rituals and celebrations with people in our community. As well as exploring them through books or film and TV or bringing other things into our home. I want my children to be exposed to as much of the world as I can manage with the time that we have, it is such a beautiful vibrant place out there and that is part of why we choose this lifestyle; we want to be out there in it amongst it all. And even just within my family, their cousins and relatives of various titles are from many different places and religions and life choices also (there are many vegetarians for example).

We also go to the park most days, around 3 or 4pm because it is cooling down and so we happen to catch the regular after school crowd. It is generally the same kids each day, I'm sure there are playground politics DD1 has had to navigate; sometimes she plays with them or others or her sister or alone. We still keep in touch with friends from her time in kindy (2.5 days a week year before schooling and there is actually a full blown reunion in a week LOL I just thought that was cute and funny) and from her mother's group (we are catching up in a couple of weekends time, it is harder now that they are all off to school but we do what we can). I do really hope my kids will have a varied and diverse pool of people to connect and learn from and I think just being welcome to that and aware of that will help us ensure it happens.

On the not getting along, well that happens too. My DD1 and Heaven's DD1 have had disagreements, they have had to negotiate less than pleasant situations. I mean my daughter takes time to warm, even though she is excited to see Heaven's DD1 she can't just jump into it social situations and Heaven's DD1 has had to figure that out because her excitement is expressed differently to my DD1's, it is usually gorgeously loud and physical and we let them work it out together, Heaven's DD1 is brilliant with my DD1, she gives her space, she waits for her to come to her, she gets it and we haven't had to explain any of this to her, she just gets it. Kids are far more intuitive than they are given credit for sometimes.

On the last point, I don't know what to really say. There are probably parents who shouldn't home educate. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater; those are faults with the parents, not the concept. I hope my children don't grow up resentful, I can accept them questioning or disagreeing with our choices but they don't need to be a victim of their circumstances, whatever they want to do I will help them to achieve that; I will hear their criticisms and then I will say "I hear you, now what can we do about it? How can we get you where you want to go?" - if they want to be a doctor we can work towards that or a lawyer or a engineer or anything. You can go back to TAFE and get a year 12 certificate if that ends up being important or necessary (or they could choose to go to school at some stage). I don't agree with everything my parents choose for me as a child but I respect them, I appreciate them and I understand they were doing what they thought best, I don't resent it or begrudge them. Being a parent is rarely about the choices we make but what is going on in the background, the relationship we have with our children, the intent behind our actions so I hope they will always be able to appreciate the intent even if they disagree with the choices it brought.

[Heaven]

I definitely don't agree with homeschooling because you want to keep kids away from people. That's never been my reason. I've only ever wanted to give them more. And I don't intend for them to only socialize with other homeschoolers either. There's many more opportunities for socialization than that. I also don't think school guarantees a well socialized kid. There's no guarantees either way. I went to a private school. All of my teachers were Australian, I never had any from a different culture than mine. I can't even think of anyone in my grade level that was from a different culture. And all extra-curricular activities were through the school as well so even though I went to school I only socialized with people who were like myself. I'm confident I can do better than that. Although I think I turned out alright anyway, LOL.

In regards to your second question n2l I don't see it as a homeschool issue. That could happen to anyone. We are all making the choices for our kids education. I'm pretty confident that won't happen though. Whatever they want to do or be we will make it happen. That might even involve school in later years. Maybe they'll want to get an OP. Who knows! My oldest is only 5 right now but as long as this works we'll be sticking with homeschooling

Thanks for asking respectfully even though you don't agree.

[Lenny]

You homeschool Heaven? Or not yet formally due to age? Or will you unschool?

I am surprised at the strength of conviction from those who are anti-unschooling. I can't see how their choice to unschool affects me in anyway. And as far as disadvantaging the children, there are arguments for and against. There are children who are disadvantaged at school too.

I choose to live a million miles from anyone who my children are related too. They miss out on family, cousins, big birthdays, Christmases etc. No one comes to grandparent day. This is my choice. Perhaps one day my children will resent my choice. Challenge me to justify my decision and how it impacted on them. I will have to explain that, on balance, I felt it was right for our family. Who knows either way - we are just doing our best. We can all apply that analogy to lots of situations.

[Heaven]

Yes, we homeschool Lenny DD1 would be in prep this year so I guess this is our first year going by school years. Although compulsory school age isn't until 6 years so you don't have to register until then.

I'm not sure how I would describe us though. DD is young so I am keeping everything play based for as long as I can. We are definitely into interest led, hands on, natural learning. Whatever works basically! lol.

[Arcadia]

Does school really teach openness and tolerance of other people? If it did then bullying wouldn't be such a problem.

Just because diversity might exist in a school community doesn't mean the kids are given tools to negotiate the variety of people and minority groups. And diversity in a school setting is not a given anyway since suburbs often have a specific socio-economic median, and cultural majority.

Again, blanket yes or no is never going to work for this debate. Each family makes decisions that best suit them at the time. I never thought I would raise my kids on a busy road in urban Melbourne, with no backyard and without family around. Hey, it's the way it's turned out. I can't make jobs magically appear in the country or in the city where my family live. My kids have a lot to complain about by some people's standards.

[Ginger]

No one has answered my question yet about what if your child wants to play on their wii all day because that is where their interest takes them?

[Teeki]

Well what would you do if your kids wanted to play Wii all day Ginger? I'm sure an unschooling parent would be similar. Maybe set a time limit, or only play certain games.

They could also see if the technology side appeals to the child. Teach them about how the games are created, programming, engineering. Almost everything can lead somewhere if you're active with it, rather than passive (so the parents getting involved in the game and teaching what they can, rather than just letting the kids mindlessly play for hours on end).

[Ginger]

but wouldn't that contradict the principles of un-schooling? isn't it supposed to be about what the child wants to do?

also, my kids don't have time to spend on their wii all day because they are at school.