Yes in theory that could happen the fees could get cheaper, but everything I have read says that while no one knows exactly what will happen most people believe that fees will go up.:
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Yes in theory that could happen the fees could get cheaper, but everything I have read says that while no one knows exactly what will happen most people believe that fees will go up.:
The slide began decades ago, yes. I don't believe there's enough competition in the market for that to happen, really. Not whilst maintaining the breadth of academic options (which have already been whittled away by funding cuts). Universities will invest in the more popular degrees, and those with better cost-benefit outcomes. The slow death of the arts will continue.
And yes, some will market themselves as the elite universities, just like private schools do, and paying ten times as much for your degree as someone else will *mean* something. Bah humbug.
Trill: I get what you are saying, but again, who decides what is 'affordable' and what isnt? Show me how the university sector is having valuable funds wasted away? The amount of older Australians studying for degrees 'just for kicks' is a paltry number and the argument that they should not be funded is moot in the first place, as universities are not going to care who or how old or how they are going to 'use' those degrees when they are paying customers.
The idea of paying for your degree has nothing to do with age. this is a policy that is determined to undermine the university sector. it will not be just that places for students will be lost, ENTIRE departments will disappear. We are talking classics, philosophy, arts, cultural studies, media studies.
And then, who decides what courses are important? Oh, that's right, the ones that get federal funding. so we expect to see a huge imbalance towards research in some medical fields and sciences while the rest is gouged. And I would like to point out that the departments facing the chop have a HUGE contribution to society. not only in terms of cultural capital but also in terms of setting policy agendas (which is probably why this government in particular is keen to see them go).
Yes, both the labor and liberal coalition governments have crap agendas. BUT, what we are talking about here is not simply policies to 'better' the nation or to be in the national interests. these are neo-conservative policies aimed at dismantling power from any class bar their own. this government is setting dangerous precedents in terms of policy and political agenda that is threatening to undo any form of a social state. I guess though, that for some people, that seems great [cue: 'everything is awesome!']. But it is not for me, I never did like fascism and what it represented.
This article sums up what we are discussing at the moment at work:
The end of equitable universityl
Hey, me too.:
I got arrested and I was on the TV lol.
Mum's friend assured her I spoke very eloquently so she was ok with it.
At the time I was the hot for Sean who worked for Green Left Weekly so I went to lots of protests because he was bound to be there lol. I was heartbroken when he moved to Ireland :(
DH and I had a discussion about college funds last night. I knew that Liberal rule under the Mad Monk was going to be a disaster but I honestly didn't imagine that it would be so bad that we would be sitting around like parents in the United States discussing college funds.
I'm just hoping that senate blocks supply on the education and health changes.
I really don't give a **** about anecdotes about people without tertiary education being successful because they are irrelevant. Young people should have choices. If a person wants to be a plumber that's fine but if they want to study fine arts that should be possible too. They shouldn't have to do plumbing because they can't afford to do the degree.
Fascinated by the concept of a self-interest degree, I would like to explore that idea further. I wouldn't have thought there were a huge number of hobbyists in uni, are you referring to the content of the courses or the motivations of the student? Does it come down to life stage? I'm nearing the end of my degree & I'm sure some ppl would think I'm over the hill at age 40. But it appears that I still have 30 years of working life ahead of me (thanks, boomers!) and that's more years than I've worked already. Thoughts?:
Yeah but that pricing model assumes there's more supply than demand. Places are already limited, so when the demand is greater than the supply, prices go up.:
See, I didn't even need to study economics at uni to spot the flaw in Abbott's "more university for everyone" plan. LOL
But at least there will be lots of ROADS.
Just wanted to add that my TAFE quals certainly weren't free either. 3 quals cost me around $7000-8000 which of course doesn't compare with uni costs, however the wage I earn isn't equivalent to a uni degree wage either...
I know plenty of people who are successful without having a uni degree. I gave examples on myself and DH because the comment was made specifically about uni. It's a pretty degrading comment to state that you cannot be successful without further education and it's simply not true.
Self-interest degrees?
If a degree is not career driven is it of less value to society? We need artists, thinkers, historians, philosophers, creative writers and poets. A society with none of those things is stagnant. If I was able to wave a wand over universities I would make everyone do a few subjects that would teach them to think critically and creatively.
Guys, we're nitpicking now. The economy is changing, as are jobs. More and more education and training is necessary and we are having to pay more and more for that. Education is an investment in the entire economy, it's not unreasonable for taxpayers to foot the bill.
The value of education....
Australia's car industry v Germany's car industry.
Germany faces many of the same challenges in production as Australia. Rather than trying to pay workers less and squeeze value it decided to prioritise innovation and technology. Result - Germany's car industry is pretty much the gold standard and provides jobs, revenue and prestige. On the other hand, Australia's dumbed down version is unsustainable.
I did state that it was my own opinion, and based on my definition of success. Sure, DH and I could do trades or lower our goals to suit a lower projected income (because jobs that require tertiary degrees generally pay higher than those that don't) but that doesn't meet my personal definition of success. Not trying to degrade anyone at all.:
Clearly I wasn't being eloquent enough for you to understand my point and you only quoted part of my post which has taken it out of context. Do you really believe that I think that way? That I would think you're not worthy or valid of further education or career prospects? I'm trying to think of possible issues and discussion points that are going to make it harder and things that the Govt may perceive as problem areas that need *fixing*:
When I said this
I refer to the issue of HECS/Commonwealth supported places as a whole. The Govt isn't sitting back and looking at individuals and what they are studying and why. They are sitting there looking at their bottom line and where they can cut spending. If they perceive that the amount of funds being used by HECS/CSPs is too high, then they are going to do what they can to cut it back. What if they decide that each uni can only have a set number of HECs/CSPs for any given degree? who determines who gets the CSP and who has to pay full-fee? How do they determine who gets the place? Does the 20 year old doing a degree for their profession get the place or does the person studying for self-interest get the place? Is it on campus or off-campus students? This is where we are at. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either view and I certainly don't think it's fair no matter which way you look at it, but it's looking pretty likely that we will get to the point where there are a finite number of places where people can access HECS or get a CSP. And that's where it's going to be likely that they will look at who is doing a degree for their career and who is doing it for self-interest.:
I'm all for learning for the love of learning and furthering education, but it's those 'just for fun' degrees that are only done for self-interest as opposed to being career driven that complicate the situation by using up available funds.
Cass, but funds I don't mean direct uni funds, but govt funds available for HECs and CSPs.
Just butting in here with a bit of a side question. Sooo.. isn't it a little counter productive to say university fees can be set by uni (which inevitably means they will increase) and yet be all about debt reduction? Wouldn't that mean future HECS/help debts will be more due to cost of fees going up?
Also, I do have a degree and don't get paid for the equivalent. Maybe that makes me stupid and unsuccessful? LOL.
My biggest issue with the budget is to do with the health factor and the impact it is going to grossly impact on our already crowded hospitals...
In perspective (I go to a bulk billing GP) if it was the $7 in the last two weeks I would have paid $63... That's not including my medication which I'd I actually brought all of it would be well ove the $100 mark...
For my patients who already struggle to pay for their medications an extra $5 per medication is huge - especially when they are on 12 different types of meds!!! That's an extra 60 a month!
I'll predict what will happen - people will not buy their medications or skip them to make then
M last longer, they wont go to the doctor because of the cost involved - and will end up in hospital, so instead of going to the doctor now and getting antibiotics for a chest infection, they will leave it it will turn to pneumonia and they will end up in hospital for. A week or two and cost the country thousands...
This budget choice us going to cost us HUGE!!!!
Is that the fault of the Govt or the car companies? Why should our Govt prop up multi-nationals who can't get their act together?:
The private sector isn't always the best place to drive research and innovation. They are concerned primarily with the bottom line, whereas research and innovation in the long-term interests of the nation might not bring obvious financial benefit for some time. In the corporate world, 12 months is long term. For a government, we need to look ahead into the decades.
There were some efforts at innovation in the car industry in Australia, but with funding pulled it all fell to bits. It is a bit different, being transplants rather than home-grown industries, but still. I'm not sure whether we lead anywhere, do we? You'd think we'd have a great opportunity to lead in things like alternate energy, for instance, but the Abbott government seems intent on destroying it. And with cuts to things like the CSIRO it's hard not to see an anti-innovation agenda.
HELP is already capped::
'For 2014, the FEE‑HELP limit is $120,002 for students undertaking medicine, dentistry and veterinary science courses (as defined in the Higher Education Support Act 2003), and $96,000 for all other students.'
and
'The FEE-HELP limit is a lifetime limit and is not reset or ‘topped up’ by any repayments that you make.'
studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/helppayingmyfees/fee-help/pages/fee-help-#HowMuchCanIBorrow
I don't agree with companies effectively holding the Govt to ransom though by saying if they don't get supported by the Govt then they will just take operations out of the country. That achieves nothing. I get what you're saying though.
Without getting too conspiracy theorist, is it entirely the Govts fault that we aren't leading the way in alternate energy? Or is it the dinosaurs of the industry keeping it down?
I'm not suggesting that the government should prop up multi-nationals or subsidise car companies. My point is that a culture of education, creativity and innovation created a brilliant car industry successful whereas the car industry that failed to encourage education and innovation failed.:
The budget is a statement about values and culture as well as an economic document. This budget and previous ones demonstrates that education and creativity is not valued by our government. If it isn't valued by our government or culture it is not available to our corporations.
FWIW, the ute/pick-up truck was invented by an Australian ;)
yes but that info is the pre-budget info - this is on the studyassist budget info page:
:
Removal of the FEE-HELP limit
The FEE-HELP limit will be removed and there will be no limit on the amount of FEE-HELP and VET FEE‑HELP assistance that a student can access. This change will apply for all students from 1 January 2016.
Come on, they're hand in hand in this....
And what Zazou said.
Does anyone know when all the proposed things are being reviewed? When do we find out what things have gone through? Is there a timeline?
Parliament is currently sitting, they are debating it now. They usually sit for 2 weeks, I don't know what will happen if they can't agree. Anyone else know?
I asked Professor this, and he said there's the possibility of a double dissolution and new election, but only if the current government decides that's the best way to end the stalemate. Otherwise they hafta negotiate to get it through. Personally I doubt the current government would be dumb enough to send Australia to the polls again ;)
I expect min June, that is just going by the communications going out from the ATO with regards to the tax table changes.
This is driving me nuts. TA is still waltzing around telling everyone his budget is going to be passed. Really? Does he really think that of he acts like its business as usual that the cross benchers will roll over? Apparently a couple o weeks back he was doing a bit of double dissolution talk (? thinking it will put the wind up the independents, who presumably stand less of a chance of being reelected, but I'm not sure how strongly they really want to be there - I can't imagine Mr Motor Enthusiast has got a high level of life enjoyment right now...). But that talk has stopped now. The budget is so overwhelmingly, behemothly bad on every front, does he really think a pinch and a tuck here and there & a few sweet deals will get it through? Will it get through? Those deals would have to be pretty awesome to offset the amount everyone will be hating on you for voting with the government!! Think: GST - Australian democrats - that was pretty much the beginning of the end, right there.
I've deferred my uni place till next year and no one can tell me what's happening with my fees. It's crazy - surely the best thing is a new election and start from scratch.
I'm just pooping my pants that i will not find a job fast enough before the indexation of my HELP loan begins. So not looking forward to that kind of debt build up. Sitting here with a university education but pretty much a SAHM with some side RA work...I guess I should of taken TAs advice and just of stuck to the ironing.
Cass, my Plan B - depending on how they handle the interest rate - is to roll it into my home loan. I figure I've got an extra 5-10 years of working life ahead of me to pay it off now that they're making those super/retirement changes :wall:.
FWIW this is one of those areas where women in this country really don't have a voice at all. WOMEN are far more likely to wear the negative consequences of these policy changes due to the way we take time away from work for child-raising, slower career & salary progression, etc. I want to see the HECS outstanding debt figures divided into meaningful demographic splits like age, gender and age AND gender, and then the real story of why the debts aren't being repaid will be revealed...
I can totally say without abandon that mine is not being repaid because I have been gender biased in the past (read: discriminated...my fellow male workmates with less quals being paid MORE...oh that sucked Big Ones) and then I went off and had kids and have only been open to flexible work arrangements...which although protected by law usually mean, just not available.
I have the double whammy of being in the university sector that is facing extraordinary cuts to funding and the business bottom line will not see any research improvements with the elevation of fees (there will be no trickle down effect towards new research funding schemes despite the absolute shellacking of the ARC capabilities). So basically I am up a certain creek with a theoretical paddle that has an abject fear of axes.
It sucks as I already feel like the economic burden on my family and this just adds to it in a rather ironic manner.
I paid mine as I worked overseas for a number of years before starting a family and had savings.
In NZ they've had to declare an "amnesty" because so many people did their degrees then sodded off overseas to earn money and never repaid anything.
I don't know how the HECS and fee issues will pan out, but they won't get through in their current form, that's for sure.
onthefly: that's what we are thinking...already planning a visiting fellow OS for the end of the year for some months and see where our options take us. and this obviously not for the debt but also for the whole university restructuring that is being threatened with the budget. neither DH or I are comfortable with the product we will be forced to sell if it goes the whole hog.
When have women ever really had a voice? Women have been fighting the patriarchy for years on a number of issues and we're still no better off really. We might *think* we are, but we aren't unfortunately.:
You know things are bad though when even the US is taking the mickey out of our 'right wing' PM.
True. But I do feel a bit like the feminine voice is more muffled now than it was 15-20 years ago when there was more campaigning around discrimination, especially in the work place. I think there's an assumption now that women will be treated equally, but not a lot of awareness around the systemic inequalities that cause this not to happen (mostly out of view).
Oh definitely, agree with you 100%. Most people think we don't need feminism anymore, that it's done it's job and that hey, isn't everything fantastic for women now, but the reality is that we are more worse off than we ever were IMO.