Federal Budget tonight....

**onthefly** · May 15th, 2014, 08:59 AM

So, reiterating that household debt and government debt are not comparable in any case... just for interest sake:
Government debt stood at roughly 9% of GDP as of end FY2013 and 50% of receipts. Household debt stood at 20% of household assets and 180% of annual income at end 2013.

ETA - that's an average across the nation Trill, obviously there are some households with no debt and some with millions. We were at 0 and even with the mortgage we're in the process of getting, we're still below average for 4 people.

**AnyDream** · May 15th, 2014, 09:02 AM

To all the people banging on about how well they've done without uni degrees & then disclosing they've got other non-school or trade quals, you are missing the point: TAFE fees are being deregulated in just the same way that uni fees are, they will be subject to the same hikes in HECS/HELP fee and interest increases. TAFE just got a lot more expensive, more hoops for people to jump through. Watch the education take-up rate fall even further in marginalized groups.

**onthefly** · May 15th, 2014, 09:18 AM

I think we'll find that as our kids reach adulthood there will be fewer and fewer opportunities for those without some sort of further education.

**PumpkinZulu** · May 15th, 2014, 09:25 AM

To all the people banging on about how well they've done without uni degrees & then disclosing they've got other non-school or trade quals, you are missing the point: TAFE fees are being deregulated in just the same way that uni fees are, they will be subject to the same hikes in HECS/HELP fee and interest increases. TAFE just got a lot more expensive, more hoops for people to jump through. Watch the education take-up rate fall even further in marginalized groups.

Exactly.

**Cassius2** · May 15th, 2014, 09:53 AM

I am just so disappointed

our careers are in the uni sector and my DH and I just devastated that we will be losing a huge chunk of diversity in our student population. it will effect the outcomes of education as more and more pressure is placed to provide an outcome for the 'customer' as opposed to encouraging learning and a love of education. We have already seen this in the last 5 years or so with some of the changes in HECS and the reduction in places for full HECS students. it is a travesty and will force people out of the sector. I know that under these proposals I certainly would never of been able to achieve a university education - let alone have a PhD. I was poor, and my school marks were below par but i got a fair go and managed in that first year of uni to come out on top and continue from there. it makes me wonder how many other people will just not be given that same chance.

And on top of that, now our own careers are put on the line. sure, we may have a job, but the quality of that job is diminishing as we turn into simply providers of a product. research funding is out the window and without that, there will be no progress. And the effects of this are immediate. In our case DH and I have had to sit down only yesterday and discuss our options and it might include us being forced out of the country to seek better conditions (ie a future lol).

I am totally bummed and more than a little frightened of where this is taking us....I mean, we knew that it was coming, but it still completely sucks bum.

**Trillian** · May 15th, 2014, 10:11 AM

The problem you're talking about though Cassius isn't restricted to just one political party in power. It's across all levels of Govt. We're screwed over by this govt at this point in time, but it's something that's only going to get worse regardless of who is running the show. I'm all for learning for the love of learning and furthering education, but it's those 'just for fun' degrees that are only done for self-interest as opposed to being career driven that complicate the situation by using up available funds. I don't know what the solution is because as soon as you start to restrict opportunities for education you start heading down the slippery slope of restricting other things, but if the last two CSP's available places for a course had to be decided between the 20 year old with a long life ahead of them in their chosen career or the 60-something semi retired who just wants to do a degree for their own enjoyment and self-interest with no intent to use that degree for work, then who should get the CSP? This is the problem we have. We have more people wanting to undertake tertiary study than the country has funds to support them all.

**wysiwyg** · May 15th, 2014, 11:50 AM

My understanding of HECS/HELP is very limited - but the bit I don't understand is the government are deregulating so universities can set their own fees right? But they are not capping the HECS amount that can be borrowed - so isn't that likely to mean a bigger HECS/HELP debt? Or is the theory that the big fees will put people off - so not as many people will take out the HELP in the first place?

**Trillian** · May 15th, 2014, 12:15 PM

We could suppose that the fees could get cheaper because they will have to be a lot more competitive now because people will choose a uni based on cost. If Uni A charged a fee of $16000 for a degree for example, but Uni B charged 18000 for the same or similar degree, people are naturally going to go with Uni A. I could be totally wrong and they may price themselves out of the market in an attempt to become an elite education model whereby a more expensive degree must equal a better degree than the budget uni down the road who charges less.

**wysiwyg** · May 15th, 2014, 12:36 PM

We could suppose that the fees could get cheaper because they will have to be a lot more competitive now because people will choose a uni based on cost. If Uni A charged a fee of $16000 for a degree for example, but Uni B charged 18000 for the same or similar degree, people are naturally going to go with Uni A. I could be totally wrong and they may price themselves out of the market in an attempt to become an elite education model whereby a more expensive degree must equal a better degree than the budget uni down the road who charges less.

Yes in theory that could happen the fees could get cheaper, but everything I have read says that while no one knows exactly what will happen most people believe that fees will go up.

**onthefly** · May 15th, 2014, 12:37 PM

The slide began decades ago, yes. I don't believe there's enough competition in the market for that to happen, really. Not whilst maintaining the breadth of academic options (which have already been whittled away by funding cuts). Universities will invest in the more popular degrees, and those with better cost-benefit outcomes. The slow death of the arts will continue.
And yes, some will market themselves as the elite universities, just like private schools do, and paying ten times as much for your degree as someone else will *mean* something. Bah humbug.

**Cassius2** · May 15th, 2014, 02:20 PM

Trill: I get what you are saying, but again, who decides what is 'affordable' and what isnt? Show me how the university sector is having valuable funds wasted away? The amount of older Australians studying for degrees 'just for kicks' is a paltry number and the argument that they should not be funded is moot in the first place, as universities are not going to care who or how old or how they are going to 'use' those degrees when they are paying customers.

The idea of paying for your degree has nothing to do with age. this is a policy that is determined to undermine the university sector. it will not be just that places for students will be lost, ENTIRE departments will disappear. We are talking classics, philosophy, arts, cultural studies, media studies.

And then, who decides what courses are important? Oh, that's right, the ones that get federal funding. so we expect to see a huge imbalance towards research in some medical fields and sciences while the rest is gouged. And I would like to point out that the departments facing the chop have a HUGE contribution to society. not only in terms of cultural capital but also in terms of setting policy agendas (which is probably why this government in particular is keen to see them go).

Yes, both the labor and liberal coalition governments have crap agendas. BUT, what we are talking about here is not simply policies to 'better' the nation or to be in the national interests. these are neo-conservative policies aimed at dismantling power from any class bar their own. this government is setting dangerous precedents in terms of policy and political agenda that is threatening to undo any form of a social state. I guess though, that for some people, that seems great [cue: 'everything is awesome!']. But it is not for me, I never did like fascism and what it represented.

This article sums up what we are discussing at the moment at work:

The end of equitable universityl

**Phteven** · May 15th, 2014, 02:24 PM

I remember marching against fee hikes two decades ago. Bronwyn Bishop said we squealed like entitled pigs. Nothing much changes.

Hey, me too.
I got arrested and I was on the TV lol.
Mum's friend assured her I spoke very eloquently so she was ok with it.

At the time I was the hot for Sean who worked for Green Left Weekly so I went to lots of protests because he was bound to be there lol. I was heartbroken when he moved to Ireland

**Phteven** · May 15th, 2014, 02:28 PM

DH and I had a discussion about college funds last night. I knew that Liberal rule under the Mad Monk was going to be a disaster but I honestly didn't imagine that it would be so bad that we would be sitting around like parents in the United States discussing college funds.

I'm just hoping that senate blocks supply on the education and health changes.

I really don't give a **** about anecdotes about people without tertiary education being successful because they are irrelevant. Young people should have choices. If a person wants to be a plumber that's fine but if they want to study fine arts that should be possible too. They shouldn't have to do plumbing because they can't afford to do the degree.

**AnyDream** · May 15th, 2014, 04:11 PM

The problem you're talking about though Cassius isn't restricted to just one political party in power. It's across all levels of Govt. We're screwed over by this govt at this point in time, but it's something that's only going to get worse regardless of who is running the show. I'm all for learning for the love of learning and furthering education, but it's those 'just for fun' degrees that are only done for self-interest as opposed to being career driven that complicate the situation by using up available funds.

Fascinated by the concept of a self-interest degree, I would like to explore that idea further. I wouldn't have thought there were a huge number of hobbyists in uni, are you referring to the content of the courses or the motivations of the student? Does it come down to life stage? I'm nearing the end of my degree & I'm sure some ppl would think I'm over the hill at age 40. But it appears that I still have 30 years of working life ahead of me (thanks, boomers!) and that's more years than I've worked already. Thoughts?

**AnyDream** · May 15th, 2014, 04:15 PM

We could suppose that the fees could get cheaper because they will have to be a lot more competitive now because people will choose a uni based on cost. If Uni A charged a fee of $16000 for a degree for example, but Uni B charged 18000 for the same or similar degree, people are naturally going to go with Uni A. I could be totally wrong and they may price themselves out of the market in an attempt to become an elite education model whereby a more expensive degree must equal a better degree than the budget uni down the road who charges less.

Yeah but that pricing model assumes there's more supply than demand. Places are already limited, so when the demand is greater than the supply, prices go up.

See, I didn't even need to study economics at uni to spot the flaw in Abbott's "more university for everyone" plan. LOL

But at least there will be lots of ROADS.

**Floweryfields** · May 15th, 2014, 04:53 PM

Just wanted to add that my TAFE quals certainly weren't free either. 3 quals cost me around $7000-8000 which of course doesn't compare with uni costs, however the wage I earn isn't equivalent to a uni degree wage either...

**Miss.September** · May 15th, 2014, 07:07 PM

I know plenty of people who are successful without having a uni degree. I gave examples on myself and DH because the comment was made specifically about uni. It's a pretty degrading comment to state that you cannot be successful without further education and it's simply not true.

**Phteven** · May 15th, 2014, 07:10 PM

Self-interest degrees?
If a degree is not career driven is it of less value to society? We need artists, thinkers, historians, philosophers, creative writers and poets. A society with none of those things is stagnant. If I was able to wave a wand over universities I would make everyone do a few subjects that would teach them to think critically and creatively.