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Fleur I wanted to say I LOVED "mongrel spirituality"! You really caused me to laugh!
I feel that grief is our sadness - that is pretty normal & healthy. But the one that has passed over - well he/she can also in the time after death cause us to recieve messages/ synchronicities that enlighten us or open us up to our own spirituality/spiritual world...
Great thread Nettie...xxx
I wanted to add to what I said earlier... that I have a really hard time reconciling what I know / believe, and what I feel. In my head I might be logically thingking "it's ok, they are in a better place" but my heart is hurting and the pain is like nothing else.
But I too think that is normal... we are living human lives here on earth, grief is a human emotion. Where I am right now it's asking too much to not be sad when we lose someone.
My mother lost her partner when I was 10. For a month or so after I used to 'pray' and talk to him (not having a better word for it at the time) and I have done so with others I have lost who have been close to me. I do feel them, their presence, for some time afterwards. I think this might be a case of them helping our transition - helping us to adjust to a world without them.
I agree Fleur - I think grief is all about us missing the person who has passed and not about our fear for where they are or are going.
I also talk to those that have passed. Just last night I felt my Mum touch my hair like she used to when I was a child. That helped me a lot.
I too would described my beliefs as mongrel spirituality (hope the pagans don't mind us crashing thier party :D ) and believe in the cycle of life.
Fluer... this is what I am having trouble reconciling within myself. I know they are in a better place, I know that they aren' feeling pain. It is my sadness... my loss... and in some ways it is selfish in that it is all about us. It causes us to all sorts of things that we wouldn't normaly do. I still feel that grief, I am still missing her (and others that I have lost) and it is all so raw. A classic case of the heart and head not being on the same page.:
I know I will meet her again. I gain strength from that. Damn these human emotions... anyone would think we were having a human experince :D
OK going to stop there as I am now officially rambling.
to add to what ive said.... when i say someones path has taken them somewhere that doesnt involve me, i dont think of it as a 'higher plane'
Higher plane of exsistance doesnt sit well with me...sure if someone is a great person they desearve to go to one...but i dont know...i just dont feel comfortable thinking of it like that...makes me uneasy in the stomach. they are just somewhere different to me/us. not better or worse...just different.
I probably didn't explain it very well, and even now I can't think of any way to put it - I don't mean a higher plain as if they are sitting on top of a cloud in heaven looking down on us.. more like ... I dunno.. like a different dimension? Is that a better way of explaining it? Argh I suck at explaining this stuff and what I mean.:
Higher plane (to me) just means the soul is at a different place, unencumbered by human frailties. They are without hate, jealousy, fear. They are in a higher plane, surrounding us with love. Not in the sense of heaven and hell where the good go one way and the bad go another. I guess just surrounding us, not tied to the earthly plane.
Probably as clear as mud :lol:
Geez Michelle that makes more sense to me than my own response does.. LOL
Thanks Mel :D At least I know it makes sense to someone besides me!!
Fab thoughts being put out there, as usual!
For me personally...
... It IS ok people die. It is totally normal, natural, and part of the wonder that is life and the universe. We just don't get brought in on the schedule.
It IS ok that people leave us physically, because it gives us the chance to see past the everyday and actually find the meaning in their relationship or presence in our life. It comes down to one basic belief for me:
Everything happens exactly as and when it is supposed to.
Not to say everything is predetermined, or destined, or that we have no control. Quite the opposite.
Every action in our lives and every interaction with another's choices in their lives, leads us t exactly where we are at any given time. As it should be. There is no such thing as "not his time to go" because otherwise he wouldn't have gone. ITMS.
Death seems to be a recurring theme in my household at the moment.
Charlotte was fully aware of the situation from the time my mum got sick, she was 9 months old. We told her the truth in ways we hoped she would understand, there was no lying or bad metaphors. Grandma Jeanny was sick, she would die and we wouldn't be able to see her anymore. She knows what death is, loves to collect the random dead bugs and moths from the house (lol tripper). But the last few months it ha become obvious that she is now processing how death is affecting her life, and what it actually is.
There have been many questions, on a daily basis, about 'mummy's mum' and daddy's dad', both of whom has died, only she never met Grandpa Maurice.
Anyway, I think it has been a learning curve for me too - having to explain things to her, and watching her young brain process the answers and try to apply them in some sensical fashion to her own understanding. It has also meant that I have had to think about it a lot, confront what exactly death means to me and how I want to teach her about it.
As for what happens when one dies... who knows. I believe in reincarnation, I believe in similar to Inanna, in that we are here to learn lessons or to teach them. I believe that once we have done that, our purpose is to move on to the next, sometimes that means leaving to have the chance to become something/someone somewhere new... Where that is or how it occurs, I will not pretend to comprehend.
I know it makes sense to me and keeps me at peace to know that (in this particular situation) Lu brought so much joy, light and love to one corner of the world. I know that people are better for knowing her, the world is richer for having her in it, and that is what we grieve for. Grief IS a selfish emotion. Totally. But a necessary step sometimes to coming to the realisation of what that person brought to our lives and how to make sure we can pass that on in our own lives, to those around us. Grief is the tool through which we will learn to keep one's memory alive by keeping their lessons alive. By actually learning them, living them.
I realised yesterday that the joy is still there. Just I realised it after my mum died. The birds still sang, the sun shone and the trees still glowed with beautiful energy. There is a fabulous chapter about how to recharge your energy without stealing it from others in The Celestine Prophecy... Whenever you are feeling dull, or miserable, go and find a tree. Any tree, but sit and look at it. Focus on it, give it the last of your energy and bask in its beauty. Soon you will be able to feel the renewed energy coming back to you through the ground, up through your feet and all around you...
Joy never leaves, sometimes you just have trouble seeing it through the dross, but once you focus on it, it will make all around you glow.
It is ok that people die. It is ok.
What a fabulous post Limey! :hug:
There isn't anything that doesn't go "bing" for me!
Also grief that is felt now can also touch on grief from the past - and grief isn't necessarily caused just by death as we all know. How people process grief can tell us a lot about how one processes or deals with life.
Some people get really sad and depressive, some get angry, some seek understanding, some really need to connect with others- all are "normal" (oh how I dislike that word "normal" lol).
But like you Lime I also like to focus on the positives of the loss. The way that the loss of a friend/relative/lover/neighbour/etc really highlights what's important in your own life. For me it's feeling the sun on my shoulders, birds, kids laughing, the sea - just seeing the love that is outpoured. It's impossible to be angry & so much understanding is shown by people who we wouldn't normally touch or be touched by! That's the gift.
I agree that it's only us that feel we've been "robbed" of that person that are sad & in that way I guess it's selfish...
I seem to be having issues getting my point across today - that or people everywhere are being overly sensitive and taking offence to everything lol
So I just wanted to add to my above post that "selfish" doesn't mean "bad"...
I think in our society we are taught that being selfish is bad or wrong, something we don't wish to aspire to. However, I would like to use the word for itself, not for it often misused assumption that those who doing something selfishly are bad...
Just want to clear that up so I don't upset anyone. "Selfish" is simply self-serving, self-oriented... about ones self, with no regard for anyone else.
And when applied to grief, then it is not bad or wrong to be selfish, it is so so personal a thing to experience.
As I said, I think it is selfish, but that isn't bad, and nor does it mean it isn't natural or necessary. It is not something to be stifled or hidden.
I totally got that. I am also in the same position as you - so I'm hearing you baby! - it's my thought that people are probably just feeling really really sensitive right now & that's also okay. Things are pretty tough & some people deal with it in ways that maybe others wouldn't and that's where the sensitivity comes in...
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yeah that ^^^
LIMESLICE ~ I need to spread some love around before I can give you more reps but that monster post you did finishing with the Celestine Prophecy quote......... BEAUTIFUL :hug:
To me - 'higher plane' means to progress or move on in the cycle of reincarnation or karmic evolution. Not to go up.. just on. Does that make sense??:
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:yeahthat: to both... not literally higher...same as your higher self.:
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I gotcha :) and I think the argument with my friend years ago was caused by a similar misunderstanding. I think I used the word selfish earlier...and then worried I may have offended. But it is exactly what you said - it just means it's about YOU & how you feel, not the soul who has departed. And it's not bad at all. I would like to think that when I go, I will be missed enough for people to be a bit selfish & sad for themsleves.
All this makes so much sense to me and I felt so guilty for being selfish and feeling MY loss, but I guess that's a natural reaction.
What doesn't sit right with me is that lulu was done here, I just can't believe that. I feel she was take. too soon from her children. She worked long and hard with cyclone especially and I just can't see her feeling done.
Am I the only one feeling this?