I've bent over backwards trying to communicate that I don't think HB'ers are uninformed, and I respect their choice. Likeiwse, not all hospital birthing vaxxers are uninformed and I also respect their choice :).:
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I've bent over backwards trying to communicate that I don't think HB'ers are uninformed, and I respect their choice. Likeiwse, not all hospital birthing vaxxers are uninformed and I also respect their choice :).:
To paraphrase from one of the experts in the recent doco 'the face of birth' - because the maternity industry doesn't use evidenced based medicine. if they used evidence based medicine then there would be more consistency among the recommendations given and procedures offered. But there isn't because although they may claim to use evidence based medicine, they don't.:
Secondly, they may be great at reading books, but they don't know me.
Thirdly, i tried to work with the system and found that it didn't for me and the hospital wasn't a safe place for me or my babies. My lived experience trumps another person's learned knowledge when making decisions about me and my babies.
Very true. I have learned a lot about anti-vax, delayed vax and homebirth here. I feel I have so much more knowledge than I did four years ago when I joined. But I see very few posts talking about how much the person loved their ob, or their hospital birth. I feel it's almost becoming taboo to even mention it. While I understand that homebirth and anti-vax are the minority and need loud voices to make people realise it's a valid choice, not everyone has a dreaded or traumatic hospital birth and that seems to be the continual argument when promoting homebirth. I get that some people do have a traumatic birth, and yes I understand that in many cases it can/should have been avoided. But not all hospital births will end badly.:
I don't think there should be any debate about it. It's a personal choice. Why do I have the right to tell anyone that they should give birth in a hospital because I had a good experience? Why do I have the right to tell someone to vaccinate their child just because I did? I did both for my reasons. I don't question others for making the decisions to do the opposite. The problem isn't with you or me or Freddy down the road. It's the higher powers that be that try to ban the "alternative" options all the time that make the debate start and roll.
The nature and wording of the question though, it was always going to get complicated - most of us are struggling to even work out what is being asked and what the heart of the question is... so there are going to be misinterpretations.
Welcome to our world :) When you believe you're the minority it can feel very isolating and out of place. But its all what we are telling ourselves and what we believe. Because you will struggle to find one post where a member has bashed someone for posting about how much they love their Ob or hospital. I dont even venture into the c/s forums because I have no experience having one, and feel I am not the best person to give advice on such matters. I stay where I can provide positive and experience-based information. Yes, women who do choose homebirth and other options usually do appear confident, strong willed and passionate, but thats what it took to get them where they are, having the experience they did. It is a good thing! If it gets too much or too heated or too rude, we'll deal with it. Yes, we infract homebirthers too! But homebirthers are usually full of confidence, strength and want to contribute just like you do. Don't take it personally, its life #101 and forum life #101!:
But I see very few posts talking about how much the person loved their ob, or their hospital birth. I feel it's almost becoming taboo to even mention it.
I think those who are choosing options that they believe are not what BB "approves" of (which is silly, we approve choice, not methods) are feeling a touch of insecurity there - and what if someone does reply and says Obs are crap? I can assure you it will get removed. You're all equally protected. Its time to stop looking at us as the bad scary guys, but the good guys, and ones who have a focus a different way than others. There is information women do not have easy access to, or are being provided. We just want to offer it and show that there is another way if you are open to it and not happy with others. This is not a scary or nasty place. Its abundant with many things that can enrich your life if you choose to see them - that doesn't mean do them. Just like you'd embrace another culture or religon, we're all people, we all do things differently and get different things out of them. But we all have a beating heart, love to connect with others, communicate and, just love!
Interesting question.
Personally, i think everything we do comes with a risk and HB and non-vaxxers are just doing what they think will be best for their family. And to me the reasoning doesn't seem alien. I think you may be looking at it from an odd angle. they probably aren't looking at the risks but the benefits and would be better termed 'non-interventionists' :)
As for "evil medical intervention'' mindset - i don't think people think that literally, but hospital births have become the norm. People who inhabit hospitals are taught to save lives/intervene. You go to a hospital for a baby, you can expect that the obst/doc will want to 'do their bit' with all their education. they aren't in your body, so they monitor and test and test and monitor - and then use that fantastic education to make decisions about your health and advise you what you should be doing etc based on the results and indicators and books!. Certainly for high-risk births, nothing wrong with that. Or if you want that to happen, it can be a security net.
But others just want to be left to do what they need to. There's a crass comparison when pushing a baby out... it is like doing the biggest poo in the world. That made me think, you don't go to the doctor for a c-sect after taking on the Lumberjack steak at your local pub. You just 'know' you need to go and you do it. Granted that is an awful comparison and i'm not calling babies little turds (although my toddler is verging on one somedays) and birth is more complicated involving 2 lives, but it's still a natural thing that your body tells you needs to happen. (and i know not ALL of us can be so lucky that it's this straightforward).
As for faith/trust in your body. I got mine after my first bub. I'm an LTTC as well Marschuke and had no faith in my body with my first. I was astounded to have birthed him naturally and breastfed as well! Then I realised that I paid an obst a lot of money to stand there and watch me push my bubba out. I did all the work, I delivered my baby, not the doctor. So my next birth was at my local birth centre and I had faith... pushed out a 10lb 3 baby with nary a scratch and was home for lunch and dr phil. If my first birth had gone awry and I needed some of that wonderful medical education this country is able to provide, then i probably wouldn't have had the faith i needed to birth dd.
Spence just wondering why you are asking the question?
Personally, it's about choice and I think all types of birth have their place. I think mothers are their worst enemies in terms of not educating themselves on their choices and letting a doctor or someone take control of their births etc I think it's a mother's place to be the primary advocate for not only their baby's health but their own and they need all the information to do that. they need a good overall view of the landscape. I think homebirth and birth centres should become the predominant way to bring a baby into the world with hospital beds saved for those mummas and bubbas who need medical intervention because of major health complications/risks or an inability to get the baby out. But then again, I also wish the world was as black and white as that!
not sure if that helps or informs your answer.
but do they? this is the same type of generalisation that many of the BB members fight against when it comes to decisions regarding HB and non Vax standpoints. It is just as easy to say that the other side of this viewpoint just read a coupe of internet blogs that supported it and decided that they liked the sound of it made a decision and and stopped researching. Further to this there are many like Maruschke and My own wife who chose Hospital birth based on the availble information, extensive reading and lengthy conversations with our OB/GP.:
In my own experience, our first child was concieved throught IVF and was a great joy for My wife and I to get there after so much heartache. I was there for the FS appointments and I was there for every OB appointment and I even got to assist in the final stage of birth actually getting to pull my son out into this world and give him to his mum for his first hugs (most awesome intense moment of my entire life to date).
We peppered our OB with question after question on everything from pregnancy to all possible outcomes on birth, our experience was through Northwest Private in Brisbane with Martin D'arcy Evans as our OB and we found him to be a incredibly pragmatic doctor who offered couterpoints to his own experience and constantly reminded us that just because it usually went one way or the other didnt mean that any of it would specifically happen to us. He was definitely a "go with the flow" kind of guy. He himself even noted that in a best case scenario he would merely pop in to say hi and give my wife a quick checkup once the baby had been delivered. When asked about a possible preference for CS he laughed and pointed out that the OB's in practice at that hospital received the same fee regardless of method of delivery (I have no idea if this holds true anywhere else), that CS is a serious abdominal surgery that is best avoided unless absolutely necessary and that in the end a CS actually ties up more of his time to do rather than letting nature take it's course.
In the end the Midwifes at NW Private did basically all the monitoring and the first we saw of our OB that night was after the placenta had been delivered. The midwifes left us alone for most of the labour checking in from time to time and helping move my wife into positions that could (and did) help relieve pressure and make her comfortable. In the end my wife was able to deliver how she felt comfortable and was only "told what to do" when a midwife had to yell over her to help her to put her vocal energy into the push (hard to frame this as not being pushy but it really did help) and when our OB needed to throw a few stiches once all the excitement had died down. (this boiled down to saying, I need to give you some stiches, can you please be still for a minute while I do it) everyone was just great. I give this example to say that it is possible to have a positive experience at hospital too (my wife's opinion, and mine but hers is the relevant one here) As a side note my wife's recollection of much of her labour (no drugs bar about 5 mins of gas) was hazy at best and she could have very well been in the middle of a freeway without noticing a single car! For her the 3 hours between the contractions getting "Real" in her words (meaning actually hurt quite a bit!) to having our son went a lot faster than she thought. She was shocked when I told her the time once we were resting. Her story is here https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ng-130058.html
I suppose that sometimes I have had the impression that the HB movement implies that a woman will have a greatly diminished experience if she choses to birth at hospital and that it almost guarantees a deprivation of basic human rights which was not my wifes experience. Looking back on our experience despite being positive it can seem almost irellevant compared to the sustained experience that is parenting, definitely a high point but the constant stream of every day experiences with our son trumps it time and time again.
I know that homebirthers would get an infraction too, that's not what I was trying to say. I don't believe there is favourtism going on for one area or another, sorry if I made my post seem like that. I wish there was no need to write that someone is a homebirther, if someone is a hospital birther, or if someone vaccinates or not. Because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what choice someone has made for themselves. I don't think that my hospital choice isn't "approved of" by BB either, because it is a pro-choice site. And I can't look at a site or the members/moderators using it, where I have learned so much and made many friends, as being scary ;):
I can't think of anything more empowering than giving birth at home. But that's not to say that a hospital birth can be any less empowering. The joy I felt after giving birth was a mixture of "My goodness, she's here" and "OMG I DID IT!!!!!!!!" To me, it's was almost irrelevant whether I gave birth at home, in a hospital, in a car or in a field. It was about my baby getting here in the best possible scenario. This time around, I'm faced with different dilemmas. Will it be a c/s? Will I be able to have a vaginal birth? I want to do it myself, no intervention. But realistically, my circumstances may not allow for that this time around. I had a moment of terror at the thought of a c/s last week, but pulled back out of it because it doesn't matter. If that's the only way I can birth my baby, then so be it. And I know that this site is where I need to be to learn what's going to happen next :)
I think it's a fair large leap to assume that homebirthers all believe that you cannot have a positive experience in a hospital. I think they believe that THEY would have a more positive experience birthing at home, and that's not the same thing.
And I agree too that the birth is only one part of the parenting journey. I have 4 children, aged 5 - 21 so I know this to be true. But birth can also be a massive, life changing experience for a woman, and should not be taken lightly, or discounted in any way. I don't remember many things from the last 21 years but I still remember the births of all of my children in quite some detail. And I'm glad of it.
spenceee, sounds like you had a decent Ob, I don't know if you're aware but QLD has some of the highest c/s rates in all of Australia, some of your hospitals sport up to a 70% c/s rate. I highly doubt 70% of the women over there have broken uteruses and vaginas ;) Oh and I also don't think its fair to generalise the HB movement with sweeping statements. Some of the homebirth movement are all for freebirths, some are not. Some think independent midwives should have access to insurance, some don't. We're all different. But faced stats like mentioned above, given PND, PTSD and disappointing births are on the increase, there are people who are saying that homebirth has offered them alot more than hospital ever could. And so far with the journey with my independent midwife, its a long shot before it could ever offer the care that my midwife gives me. I knew it intellectually, but now actually having my own midwife come to me for two hours at a time, in my own house, having a cuppa and cake, interacting with my kids and family, getting them involved - its unbelievable. Its like having another family member as opposed to a boss. You can be happy with your experience in hospital, yes. But to me, hospital birth is like sex without the orgasm - does the job but you don't know what you're missing out on til you get it.... and who wants to go back once you've been there :p
I'm actually loving this thread!
I'm not opposed to medical care, in fact my dad is a gp and my sister is studying medicine. I vaccinate, and I get ultrasounds and blood tests. In fact I would say my prenatal care was pretty medical, with Doppler checks, blood pressure checks and regular discussions on my health, nutrition and well being.
I do not look down on people who birth in hospital, I have no idea what that is like. I just chose the place that was right for me.
I am a feminist and activist for birth CHOICES. I couldn't give a hoot where other people birth, as long as they chose it, and had a positive experience. if they feel like they missed out on something, well they can try something else next time.
Birth is a very very personal thing, so there will never be a right way. I just wish the media would stop fear mongering wound home births and leave us alone!
As for the issue of bodily faith, I want to give you a great big hug Maruschke!! As heaven pointed out, maybe faith isn't the right word, because there was nothing blind about my belief in my body. I read everything I could get my hands on about birth. I talked and read and thought and dreamt about all the possible contingencies. Home birth was one of many birth plans I had...it was just the optimal.
When I say 'why wouldn't it all work out' I mean that literally....let's go through the things that go wrong and make a decision about what to do about it...the was a lot of think and research in my decisions.
I wouldn't say all hospital births are negative. I had two great hospital births before my Homebirth. Then sadly had the most horrid hospital birth! And I know for a fact none of it would have happened the way it did if I'd been at home :(
I was an idiot. I knew both sides. I knew how birth could be and I got a 'normal' hospital birth that without a fight would have been a cs.
It's left me that deeply scared I'm just not sure I can birth again.
So no I didn't have a home birth to heal me from a bad hospital birth. It was my ob at my 2nd birth that suggested I have a Hb next time.
Thanks for the hugs.:
When I speak about faith, I never mean "blind faith". Faith is always based on something. So it's not as if I'm sitting here thinking that HB'ers based their confidence on nothing more than wishful thinking. Perhaps I should have defined the term earlier, but I can't remember which of us used it first and to be honest I'm lazy :p.
I agree. Home birthers and hospital birthers are not on opposite sides of the coin here. Choice enablers and choice deniers are on opposite sides of the coin.:
I don't really know how you have determined the group values of the 'homebirth movement' as you call it and am assuming (yes, assuming) that you've had limited contact with people who choose homebirth (I'm guessing this because if you had lots of contact with homebirthers, you probably wouldn't have started this thread). If I'm right, then I think its also safe to assume that your idea of what the 'homebirth movement' pushes for is likely informed by public perception, opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers etc...If I'm way off the mark, I apologise.:
I gave birth at home. I plan to give birth at home for future babies. I've sent submissions to MPs, I've attended rallies, I'm going to the Homebirth Conference later this year. I still don't know what you mean by 'homebirth movement'. I meet lots of other people who choose to homebirth. The only things they all tend to have in common is that they value normal physiological birth, and that they believe women should have a right to bodily autonomy and a say in how they give birth. Another common thread amongst the homebirthing women I've met is that they usually believe that safety in birth means more than just being alive at the end of it. I'm not suggesting that women who give birth in hospital don't or can't share those values too.
I don't think it's at all useful to group women who choose to homebirth as the 'homebirth movement', or people who choose not to vaccinate, or who question routine vaccination or who choose to delay vaccinations as the 'anti vaccination movement'. I would probably be someone you might consider to be part of the 'homebirth movement' but all I want is for my rights to be respected, not to get everyone else having homebirths.
I chose to homebirth because I value normal physiological birth and believe it is a normal bodily function that works very well on its own unless there is a reason to intervene. In the state I live in, around 5% of women have a normal physiological birth within the hospital system. I didn't like those odds. Before I TTC I thought I would need a private obstetrician and a private hospital to have a normal physiological birth. After 2 years of research, I realised that option was the choice least likely to get me the outcome I wanted. At this stage, my child has not been vaccinated but we are in the process of researching what vaccinations we believe to be necessary and when we should have them administered. We may do all of them, we may do some, we may do none - we haven't decided. There are members of my family who have had severe allergic reactions to vaccines, but that aside I still think it is important for people to weigh up the risks and benefits of ANYTHING we put into our bodies. I consider it part of my parental responsibility to do this. I agree that largely, vaccines appear to be safe and useful. Birth is also very 'safe' in Australia regardless of where or how it is done.
I disagree that we are at our most fragile during birth - I was at my most powerful during birth. More powerful than I ever thought I could be. Having said that, the process and hormones that allow normal physiological birth make it very difficult to be "left brained" so that can make women very vulnerable if they don't have good support, or if they have care providers that don't respect their autonomy.
I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement that 100% of babies that die in hospital would have also died at home. 2 babies died in South Australia as a result of ventouse delivery (I think in 2009?)...no ventouse at home. When my baby was born, he took about 2 minutes to take his first breath...if he was born in hospital it would have been routine practice to cut his umbilical cord (which was providing him with oxygen) and take him away from me to be resucitated. Maybe he would have died? Maybe he would have ended up in SCN? Maybe then we would have had difficulty establishing breastfeeding because those crucial early hours were interrupted? Maybe I would have suffered PND because the flow of oxytocin that facilitates bonding was interrupted. Of course, its not a GIVEN that those things would have happened, but it makes them more likely. Our medical/hospital system exerts pressure by way of beds, staffing levels, time, funding etc which makes evidence based practice and an individual approach to every single woman just about impossible. That is to the detriment of women and babies. What DID happen, because he was born at home, is that under the very watchful eye of my midwife, I talked to him, blew on his face, tickled his feet and rubbed his chest...I was never worried, there was no panic, just a mother following her instincts and an experienced professional observing, assessing and ready to intervene if it became necessary. I am unbelievably grateful that I had a care provider that has great respect for the importance of those first moments of motherhood and an understanding that the safest place for a healthy newborn to be is usually on it's mothers chest.
It sounds like you had a wonderful, inspiring birth experience and a fantastic, supportive care provider - I'm very happy for you. I don't think that giving birth in hospital means that you're guaranteed a raft of intervention you don't want and a big dose of birth trauma. I also don't think homebirth is a guarantee of a great outcome, a joyous birth and a blissful babymoon. Neither hold any guarantees about having a live baby or mother. What I DO think, as a woman, a feminist and a mother, is that women should be supported to make decisions that best suit them. If they can be informed decisions, I'm even more thrilled, but not everyone has the time or inclination or interest to research for themselves. The crap*y thing is, and this is where I get angry, I get asked to justify my decisions all the time, asked to explain my rationale, expected to be able to quote xyz study to back myself up. My choice isn't publicly funded and is it a choice made by very few women. My choice is endlessly vilified, I'm called names, told that I'm selfish, putting my own needs above my baby's, reckless, primitive, backwards and that I hate everyone who doesn't make the same choice as me. My choice will be illegal in 15 months time. I suspect in time it will become illegal to refuse vaccination without a medical exemption. I'm not ok with that.:
Interesting thread - it's nice to see intelligent discussion about this, rather than the name-calling that it sometimes descends into.
But you know what strikes me? How incredibly lucky I am to live in a part of the world where I have these choices. To actually have a nearby hospital I can choose to go to. Or to have trained midwives to come to my home, knowing that help is not far if I do need a hospital. To know that, vaccinated or not, if my child were to come down with any of these illnesses, they would have some of the best healthcare in the world to help them. I am blessed to stress about what my toddler will eat for dinner. Because in so many parts of the world, mothers only get to stress about whether their toddler will eat dinner. For all its faults, Australia is a great place to live.
I am still TTC #1 so I will start by saying I am posting purely from an outsiders perspective as I have no first hand experience
BB has been a great learning experience for me since starting TTC. I have learnt a lot from threads about things I never knew existed and have been able to research options I wouldnt have considered otherwise
If you had asked me before I found this site what my future birth and vax choice would be my response would have been in hospital and vaccinated. I never considered possibilities of a home birth and I fully admit I was shocked when I first read people chose not to vaccinate their children because I had the mentality of but you have to everyone does it. These days however I have done a lot of research about both home births and vaccinations (I like to be prepared) and am great full I have been able to make informed decisions after researching the pros and cons for both options
That being said my occupation is a Safety Advisor. I am always analysing risk and trying to lower the exposure I work out risk based on worst credible outcome vs likelihood. In the home birth situation death is the worst credible outcome and the likelihood is slightly higher than a hospital birth however once control measures are implemented the likelihood is significantly reduced so I don't think this is a decision that can be made based on risk alone. It is a personal choice that every woman has the right to make and we are very lucky that we have the option to do this.
@ eutra_phalia - thanks for coming in on this, When I was talking about being at our most fragile I was talking about the baby and not the mother, meaning that emergency situations with an infant are usually much more urgent than any other stage of life. Also FWIW I have 2 close friends who have 3 HB's between them, while my Wife and I were TTC she actually was lucky enough to be a helper at one HB for our close friend whose partner suffers from a chronic disease and needed a backup person. She was there for the whole thing and thought that it was very intimate and amazing but she was definitely afraid for our friend based on the "what if". Regardless we supported their decision and wanted to help. So my Wife's decison to birth at hospital actually came with some first hand perspective that is not normally possible for many. The reason that I raise this here and not with my friends is a simple one, it is defnintely a very touchy subject, debating the thought process with them could drive a wedge into our friendship that would not be worth the intellectual pursuit of knowledge. An anonymous forum is the perfect place to have this discussion as we can all be bruatally honest without worrying about breaking down long term friendships due to differences of opinions. (same reason we dont discuss religion with most of our friends)
The impetus to need to defend your choice to HB is a simple one if you look at it from a high level being that so few mothers chose to HB making it a very alternative lifestyle choice compared to the mainstream. Added to that is ignorance and the countless thousands who ask indelicate questions. At a basic level people want to understand other people.
I am really glad that 99% of the posts here have furthered the conversation and yes, I think am starting to see and understand the viewpoint. Honestly, I do still feel that for my wife her choice was the right one for her but I am understanding how that choice comes to be made.
If I can try to summarise what I am seeing here (being my viewpoint and not the final word on this!) and link it back to my OP. The concept of minimising risk to the child and chosing HB and non Vax together does not hold for people who chose both as minimising risk is not the primary objective. Minimising risk is of course still a priority but not #1. the feeling is that Hospital birth somewhat discounts the emotional experience of the mother in birth and is rather an undestanding and decision that medical intervention can be overblown in these matters and that you would rather keep more control over the decision for your self and will seek medical intervention when you feel it is needed. As it is this that provides the greater peice of mind over being statistically slightly marginally safer.
The counter point to this viewpoint is that for some mothers, like my own wife, feel that they would actually be more comfortable birthing in an environment where if needed, professional medical help was but metres away and the input and attention of medical professionals was comforting. Vaccination adds to this peace of mind of knowing that our child is protected from illnesses that they may not come into contact with but could once out in the world.
Serioulsy though - the luxury of choice is the ultimate and FWIW I do think that there should be insurance and govt support made available for trained and qualified Midwifes to be able to offer this choice to mothers.
Almost. Risk to my child is the ONLY reason I choose not to vaccinate. And risk to my child is the primary reason I avoid medical interventions during birth. Having the input and attention of medical professionals being LESS than a metre away was a very significant part of my choice to HB with a midwife.:
I don't think you're getting it still.
I'm seeing some parallels in your train of thought with similar attitudes and debates in the world of cancer treatment - conventional vs alternative treatments. Part of the heat of the debate comes because there is so much riding on it, it's one of the few times in our lives that we confront the coalface of life/death. I don't want to go off on a whole different tangent, but I would like to say that the thing that makes the medical system so robust - the evidence-based population study model - is also what makes it weak. By deriving best practice across large populations, the "system" forgets the idiosyncracies of each person and what he/she brings to the table in terms of their knowledge, experience, lifestyle, and ability to create their own healing/state of wellbeing. It's the one thing that the system has never learnt to measure and frequently fails to recognise in any given medical encounter.:
No, the reason i chose homebirth was it is the safest way to bring my baby into the world. It was my way of minimising the risk of injury to me and my baby.:
This is probably a point that many who chose hospital birth fundamentally disagree with, it is known that home birth has a strong evidence of positive outcomes but this is (for the most part and what I understad of the situation) due to the fact that the majority of midwifes only accept pregnancies that are low risk or manageable low risk for home birth referring high risk cases for hospital birth. This would in my eyes skew any statistic in favour of home birth. Is this a fair observation?:
No. As a someone who has chosen a hospital birth, I accept that this is HotI's choice and has absolutely nothing to do with the way I feel about anything. If she feels that the risk was less for her being at home than being in a hospital then who is to tell her otherwise? Nobody has that right. In this day and age (cliche much!) with so much information readily available, it is easy to do some research and weigh up the odds for yourself.:
This pregnancy I've been told that my placenta is covering my cervix. If I had decided that I wanted a homebirth, I would give it up in a second because it's not what is best for my baby or me. It's a simple decision. I think you'd find it difficult to find someone in circumstances like this or similar to this that would continue on and just hope for the best. But if I had continued on the path I was on just a couple of appointments ago, with my ob predicting that I'd continue to have a stress free pregnancy (based on what I was going through at that time), that he had faith my body could do what it needed to without intervention, then that would have made me completely confident in having a homebirth, should I have chosen one.
yeah - what HotI said. That's what I was getting at in a very, very long winded, inarticulate way :):
I agree that those who chose to hospital birth would disagree with the homebirth being better for them and their child, otherwise why would they chose to birth in hospital? Lol. It's a moot point.
The fact is, when birth becomes a medical emergency, that's absolutely when hospitals have a place. Just as when you get pneumonia, you'd go to hospital. It doesn't necessarily mean that just because you're asthmatic (and therefore more at risk of developing pneumonia) that you should live in a hospital just in case. And that's how many homebirthers feel like. Their births are not a medical emergency, until it becomes one, and very often, it doesn't.
Anyone who chooses a home birth is not ignoring risk. They are saying they believe they have less risk by birthing at home. Less risk of unnecessary intervention, less risk of birthing 'by the clock', less risk of the stress of being in a clinical environment, less risk of delivering a child to a mother who is somewhere she doesn't want to be. Birth can be a profoundly private, intimate and empowering experience to a woman. For her, her child and her family. You cannot quantify that with surface logic about statistical outcomes no matter how you try.
Whose definition of 'high risk'? Do you consider breech, vaginal birth after caesarean, twins, 'older' mothers, 'overweight' mothers or mothers taking anti-depressants to be high risk? Plenty of midwives that support women to homebirth will support women that have these 'risk' factors and don't consider them to be high risk, where a GP, OB, hospital midwife or birth centre policy might.:
If you're suggesting that stats that demonstrate the safety of homebirth are skewed because women who may have complications are out of the scope of a homebirth midwifes practice are transferred to hospital, I'd argue that when that happens, with the woman's consent, it is a perfect example of why homebirth is safe!!! Continuity of care, advice and referral. Sadly lots of hospital midwives, GPs and OBs will not work collaboratively with homebirth midwives so women lose their continuity of care (most homebirth midwives do not have admitting rights in hospitals, despite efforts to obtain these rights).
Like I said before, for all the homebirthing women I've ever met, the idea of 'safety' is more than just being alive.
I get the feeling spence that you are implying that one women's choice directly implies that her belief is that all women should follow that path. The point you are missing and is quite obvious to me, is that in this community everyone does what is best for them and no one here has demonstrated to me that they believe that a choice should be taken away from another mother because it is not the same as theirs. I think trying to determine that one way is the only way is always going to cause problems.
Can I ask you this do you personally believe that home births are the wrong way to birth? And I don't want you to answer for other women or your wife, I want you to answer honestly what you believe.
Ugh. Show me a homebirth advocate who suggests a *truly* high risk woman birth at home, and I'll show you a total minority. It happens, for whatever reasons, but it's bot the norm and certainly does not represent the homebirth movement as a whole. Advocates don't push the mentality of homebirth or die, like you seem to think.
Fair question, I think it is reasonably obvious through the questions I raised and my comments so far that I do beleive that Hospital birth and vaccinations are the safer option not to say the HB is wrong but not as safe if there is an emergency making HB a less desirable option if Hospital birth is an option. I do give more weight to the opinion of a doctor to that of a nurse or a midwife. Not over my wife's choice but as her support person I would be asking questions to make sure that any potential intervention of the natural process was truly necessary and encouraging her to listen to the advice offered (she would anyway). I did ask my wife how she wanted to deliver before voicing my opinion and it just so happend that we were already in agreeance so I supported her choice. My view is heavily influenced considering that as a group Obstetricians almost universally reccomend medically attended birth due to the immediate nature of some potential birth complications. While there has to be an element of the OB community that is trying to protect their livelyhood I do not accept that they merely charge forth on a medical path ignoring natural processes nor do they see a CS as a band aid solution or convenient option.:
Let me caveat that with the view that hospitals like the RBH in Brisbane do have a birthing centre that allows for the natural birth experience with a midwife however it is outside of the home. I think that this is an excellent service as it offers almost all the same level of choice regarding experience although outside of the home but with the backup of an expericenced medical staff and world class NICU on site if things dont go as planned. I consider this to be the effective equivalent of hospital birth on terms of my perceived level of safety. I also recognise that not everyone has this as an option due to location of services and the centre itself has a long waiting list and strict admission guidelines regarding their assesment of risk with the pregnancy. I also believe that they do not accept VBAC patients or patients with any history of serious birth complications either (I could be wrong here).
I do also think that vaccination is the right thing to do for my child, I actually felt that vax was even more important now due to the rise of non vaxxing parents and what I perceived to be an increased chance to be exposed to other children with these illnesses. I think that the anti-vax movement is potentially more harmful to children than the potential side effects of vaccination which are truly tiny (according to WHO 1:1,000,000 have an adverse event following measels immunisation (AEFI)).
Here is an excerpt from vaccination.org,au
:
The risks of vaccination compared to the risks of the disease have been calculated several times (Galazka 1984, Velimirovic 1991, Koplan 1985, Holden 1987, etc). A typical vaccination program in a developing country will prevent about 45 childhood deaths and 12 serious handicaps a month, while causing one death in 22 years and one serious handicap in 7.5 years.
I don't think that - never said I did - this is putting words in my mouth, wrong ones. I really dont feel like this adds to the conversation and it feels quite close to a personal attack. If I have offended you personally PumpkinZulu I apologise, if my opinions on birth and vax make you angry then so be it but i am just as entitled to them as you are to yours and I would not see you persecuted for them or deprived of them. Counter to this view of my opinion i do however believe that Obstetricians dont go around looking for opportunities to take decisions out of mothers hands and pressure them in to being cut open upon dire threats of perinatal mortality.:
Advocates don't push the mentality of homebirth or die, like you seem to think.
I hope that my personal standpoint does not come as a suprise to anyone and further to that I hope that I am not attacked for holding this belief. I also want to make clear that I have not attempted to veil this opion in the name of surreptitiously discrediting or being disaproving of anyone elses choices or to influence anyones future choices. I have however tried to restrain my point of view somewhat to prevent this thread turning into another HB vs Hospital thread/Vax vs NoVax that goes nowhere inviting angry posts etc... I have thourougly enjoyed this thread and the conversation within. I still maintain overall that choice is paramount and I do simply wish to try and gain some actual understanding for those who chose different to me. I genuinely mean this.
Look, my opinion is that to hold any credibility in this discussion, you need to do a LOT more research and reading on homebirths. I don't feel like I can enter into a decent discussion with someone who clearly knows the bare minimum about a subject. Vaccinations, while we disagree, you are extremely well versed in. Homebirth, however, you are really not doing yourself many favours.
I'll ignore for the moment the incredibly arrogant and blasé way you chose to dismiss the very real reality of birth rape, which btw is a very accurate term for what can happen in ANY birth scenario, but let's face it, more commonly in a hospital. Instead, I'll focus on the major part of your argument that left me with no doubt that you need to do more research on this topic before you start spouting stats.
You mentioned that 100% of babies that die in a hospital would have met the same fate at home. So incredibly untrue that it makes my head spin to read it. You also said that the babies that did die at home would have had a better chance of survival at a hospital. Not always so! And what about the babies that were born at home, that may have died in hospital due to interventions? I cannot see how you can make such bold statements tbh.
I had a birth at a birth centre and a birth at home. Both drug free without interventions but both poles apart. A birth centre IS NOT the same as a home birth not at home. It is not a suitable option for those wanting a home birth, a home birth is. Also, you need to recognise that home births DO have experienced medical staff in attendance. Are you confusing homebirth with freebirth perhaps?:
I agree that you are clearly lacking in understanding and research, but you seem to have formed an opinion already. So I'm not sure this discussion is even worth the time.
My goodness please - I do not and did not ever dismiss the existence of unwanted intervention in birth. This is just untrue. It makes me upset to be represented in this way:
I dont think I need to justify to anyone the amount of reasearch I have done into the homebirthing movement but let me just say that it is just as extensive as my Vax research and in fact moreso due to the vast amount of information available on both sides of the point. Simply put I have read a lot and continue to do so and continue to learn.
Regarding my "bold statement" about emergency situations at home/hospital, based on the information at hand I refuse to accept that a Midwife or Doula in a house regardless of how well experienced, is better equipped to respond to an emergency situation than a hospital with a NICU and OB's and Pediatric specialists and Medicines etc. This is, if you will, part of my belief and it is in my view somewhat narrow minded to not be able to empathise with me and see how anyone could hold this view. This margnalises those who actively chose to birth in hospital.
I have to ask: If your wife had decided for whatever reason she had wanted a homebirth, what would you have done? If she told you that she felt safer in a home environment, that she was scared of having having to fight with drs for what she wanted to happen during her birth, if she didn't want strangers she hadn't met before being there and she felt like she could manage her labour better at home. Would you have asked her to ignore her feelings and listen to her drs?
My husband and I had a few discussions of that nature when I was pregnant. He too, believed that the dr knew better and that I should listen to my ob on everything. Lucky I'm a stubborn woman, because it turns out my ob didn't know better when push came to shove. My ob himself admitted he was wrong. But that's the great thing about the world, we can all still have new experiences and learn from them, even drs.
So I guess it boils down to this: if you're convinced that a hospital birth is a safer option for women, and your wife agrees, then you're both lucky to have common ground. But it doesn't make it the right choice for every woman, and they have the right to look at what constitutes a risk for THEM and make a choice that mitigates against the risks that they are most concerned about eventuating. And what constitues 'risk' to you may not even resemble what a homebirther may consider a risk, yet who is anyone to say that your risk is of more importance than theirs?
Now another question stemming from Rouge's: I think it's pretty clear to me and others I think that you believe that hospital birth is a safer option, based on the value you place on medicine and drs, opposed to the value you place on the woman's needs, beliefs and feelings. So what are your trying to achieve here? I gather you don't expect to have your opinion changed, yet the responses you have received on birth choices have been some of the most articulate and well-explained I've seen on BB (and I've been around a long time, believe me). They have challenged my own thinking, and I have come away believing more than ever that women can be intelligent enough, strong enough and in tune with themselves enough to know what's best for them, more so than a dr, who only sees them for a couple of mins every few weeks, ever could.
Have these women, who have shared their own experiences willingly and openly, even made you question any of your own beliefs? Because if they haven't, then perhaps you might not ever 'get' what they're trying to say, so continuing a discussion that continually leads to impasse with you serves no more value to you, don't you think?
But even if none of your beliefs have been challenged or changed from this discussion, I hope that others reading this thread have drawn value from it, because I sure have.
Awesome :) This is what I was going to ask next. And I couldn't agree more with the last line. And I hope all those who have contributed to this thread, feel the same sense of pride that I do right now, because even in our differences we can come together as a community and share respectfully and without division. I call that Levelling Up :D:
But your conclusion is flawed - the assessment and calculation of risk is entirely subjective and unique to each individual.
You're right, it's incredibly narrow minded.
Here's how I *know* your research isn't as extensive as you claim. Give me 3 examples of full on, super panic stations emergencies that could happen during labour, suddenly and without any prior warning that a woman's caregivers (meaning, experienced, highly trained midwife) had not foreseen or prepared for? Please, do. Because I can tell you, *most* situations that arise, a responsible caregiver will be able to predict to some degree, and manage appropriately, whether that be at home or a hospital transfer. And most situations do not just suddenly occur, they have warning signs.
I gave birth in a hospital. I planned a homebirth. When my waters broke, they were meconium stained. Not life threatening, but it was the policy to transfer (I was with a hospital based program, not because I felt safer, but because it was in its trial phase and I wanted to add a positive statistic so other women could access it also). I had a great birth, small amount of medication in the ambulance, and from then on had a natural, vaginal, physiological birth. Things like cutting the cord happened immediately without my consent, which was not necessary. Now I am pregnant again as planning a Homebirth with a private midwife. My hospital transfer was put down as a success in the trial, because it was a successful example of good Homebirth in action. But, when I arrived at the hospital, my HB midwife had not yet arrived. I had a hospital midwife who tried to ply me with drugs, and insisted I remained strapped to the bed for constant monitoring for my labour. Obviously I refused, and the shift when my HB midwife arrived was incredible. Homebirth is more than a venue, it's a philosophy, one you clearly do not grasp.
:grouphug:
Thought the thread needed one of these :)
LShoulder dystocia:
Placental abruption
Cord prolapse
LC, I'm not saying they don't exsist. I'm saying I doubt spenceee is really aware of the risks. I'm not too familiar with the specifics of placental abruption or cord prolapse aside from the basics, but I do know that there are several warning signs for shoulder dystocia. Anyway, I'm not dismissing the dangers of childbirth. I'm saying that homebirth is safe for low risk pregnancies, and not even low risk deemed by most of the medical world either.
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Ok please don't prove me wrong.
No flaming. No nastiness. Or I will ban you from this thread. Don't be a buzz kill. If you need to get heated do it in your own time and not in this thread.
Correct me if I am wrong (I really mean that) but I thought HB'ers recognised there are some things that go wrong even in a low risk birth, that might be treated better in a hospital, but they also believe that there are things that go wrong in a low risk hospital birth that might be better treated at home, and hence on balance, they choose to HB. That's not to say there aren't things that go wrong and badly, but their risk assessment comes down on the side of HB rather than hospital birth. It's not the case that they believe nothing goes wrong.
So yeah you can list three things but does it really matter? Not sure I am explaining myself well. The fact that placental abruption is more risky at home than at hospital, doesn't imply that on balance home is riskier than hospital (in their opinion).